Preexistence

Participant

t8 said:

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Trinitarians can't help themselves by translating John 1:1c the way they do, but there are actually translations that recognise that the Word was divine, as opposed to the Word was God. Even some Trinitarian scholars agree that John 1:1c used theos in a qualitative sense.

More double talk from t8. I still can't see how the “qualitative” reading hurts the trinity doctrine.

the Roo

July 28, 2010 at 6:19 pm#206553

Participant

Quote (t8 @ July 28 2010,04:50)

The Trinity doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not the true foundation and is not John's conclusion

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

Then someone should have informed John and Jesus for not rebuking Thomas blasphemy a few sciptures ealier.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

The claim to be the Son of God and that God was your own personal Father was understood by the Jews and John to be “equal” to God…

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God“. John 5:18

These are Johns own words and commentary.

Which is proof of Johns meaning of John 1:1 in the Prologue.

So it is you that misrepresents Johns meaning of the term “Monogenes” (only of its kind) Son of God.

If being the “Son of God” was common then why did the demons cry out “thou art the Son of God” and Jesus telling them to hush? Why did it take a supernatural revelation from the Father to Peter?

Of course it still takes a Revelation from the Father to know who and what the “Monogenes” (Only of its Kind) Son of God is.

That brother John and his Gospel sure is a big thorn in the flesh for the “Arians” and their heretical doctrines.

July 28, 2010 at 6:45 pm#206557

Participant

Quote

That brother John and his Gospel sure is a big thorn in the flesh for the “Arians” and their heretical doctrines.

This kind of statement builds walls, causes divisions…and has proven adversely effective. Tasteless salt is all that is…this should stop.

Matthew 5:13
“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Mark 9:50
“Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

A divisive statement spoken, tasteless salt…and then a smiley face, also in poor taste? Why? Has there been anything good coming from this kind of behavior. Many are guilty of this here. Stop, please!

July 28, 2010 at 6:47 pm#206558

Participant

WorshippingJesus said to t8:

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The claim to be the Son of God and that God was your own personal Father was understood by the Jews and John to be “equal” to God…

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John 5:18

Keith,

True! The Greek word “idios” is present in the original. John said that Jesus was making God His own Father

NIV: 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

NASB: 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

ESV: 18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

This was against the law of Moses:

John 19:7: 7The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God.”

that law:

Lev. 24:16: 16Whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

To claim to be the Son of God in the way Jesus did was to blaspheme YHWH's Name. Therefore, when John said that Jesus was making Himself EQUAL with God he meant it.

Jack

July 28, 2010 at 6:54 pm#206560

Participant

WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:

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You expect me to accept the translation of a few “Non Biblical Hebrew or Greek scholars” who could not translate the fuzz off of a peanut when it came to Hebrew or Greek translation.

the Roo

July 28, 2010 at 7:02 pm#206562

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2010,13:45)

Quote

That brother John and his Gospel sure is a big thorn in the flesh for the “Arians” and their heretical doctrines.

This kind of statement builds walls, causes divisions…and has proven adversely effective. Tasteless salt is all that is…this should stop.

Mark 9:50
“Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Kathi

You have a right to your opinion.

Jesus called men vipers and whited sepulchers and children of the Devil. I have never went that far with anyone here.

My statement is mild compared to the personal attacks that have been made on me by JA and Mike.

My statement is a statement of facts and is “meant to divide” from the heretical teachings of the Arians.

This is not an attack on the person like so many here do. It is an attack on false teachings that are not found in the scriptures.

There is no unity among the gainsayers for Jesus said how can two walk together unless they agree?

The Church of Jesus Christ is under a constant barrage of attacks from wells without water who teach falsehoods.

Jesus said my sheep know my voice and follow me!

Paul said…

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; “reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when “they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables”. 2 Tim 4:2-4

July 28, 2010 at 7:08 pm#206564

Participant

It is one thing for the Son of God to be equal in nature to God, His Father…another thing to be the God OF God where one is the source/unbegotten and the other is from the source/begotten (before the ages). The two cannot be the same exact being. They are not two in one being but two together as our God (creator and authority) yet each being separate from the other. I am not speaking here as God being one 'being' in this context, I am speaking of God as a kind of being which consists of two united, together serving as our creator and authority each with different roles for our creation and our salvation.

July 28, 2010 at 7:09 pm#206565

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ………..For the hundredth time there is (NO) Such thing as a TRINITY , it is a (FALSE) Teaching. It creates the (IMAGE) of the Man of Sin , by saying Jesus was and is GOD ALMIGHTY. You and Jumping Jack flash are both miserably wrong. You both spend all your time bouncing around and saying nothing that can even begin to disprove this simple scripture. “FOR THO ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. LET THAT SINK INTO BOTH YOUR TRINITARIAN HEADS.

peace and love………………………………gene

July 28, 2010 at 7:16 pm#206567

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2010,14:08)

Kathi, there is no scripture that says the Father is the source of Jesus. They are One.

Your theory is flawed because you insist that “begotten” always means to be “Born”. It doesn't and there are no scriptures that prove Jesus had a beginning, but it is only conjecture for those who reject Jesus as the “The One True God”.

July 28, 2010 at 7:18 pm#206568

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2010,14:09)

peace and love………………………………gene

Gene

Why do you waste your breath? I know in whom I have believed and none of your lame accusations will ever change that.

July 28, 2010 at 7:25 pm#206569

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2010,06:08)

The sun generates its rays. Yet there was never a time in the sun's existence that it did not generate its rays. Therefore, there was never a time when the sun was without its radiance.

Jesus is the “radiance” of the Father's glory (Heb. 1). Was there ever a time when the Father did not have radiance?

the Roo

July 28, 2010 at 7:29 pm#206570

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2010,06:09)

peace and love………………………………gene

Gene,

Jesus was still a servant when He called His Father the “only true God.” He is exalted and now John calls Jesus the “only true God” (1 John 5:20).

servant
exalted
servant
exalted
servant
exalted

the Roo

July 28, 2010 at 7:32 pm#206571

Participant

Keith,
Most people here want to understand rightly. Everyone here is loved by God and He wants them to understand rightly. Everyone has some truth and no one has the whole truth. I think that it would be better to take the stand that other people have value to bring here and be more ambitious to bring out that value instead of continually lessening their value. Don't you? You are right that many are guilty of the degradation of others and it has not been effective towards glorifying God which should be our common goal. Instead of repenting of this, it is justified by the self-righteousness (of many) thinking that they are serving God by degrading others because Jesus called out the vipers. Well, Jesus can do that because He holds all truth, we do not. Jesus wants us to be humble and think of others as better than themselves. Why not try that approach for a while and let God take care of the disciplining of the vipers. You may have better relationships here if you don't view people as false teachers, maybe wrong (and then again, maybe right and you are wrong) in what they understand, but not ravenous wolves seeking to destroy. You have a strong personality here, it could be used to be very much a leader in humility and affect the humility of many.

Please!

July 28, 2010 at 7:52 pm#206573

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2010,14:32)

Keith,
Most people here want to understand rightly.

Kathi

I wish that were true. But I think some here do not want to rightly understand.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2010,14:32)

You may have better relationships here if you don't view people as false teachers, maybe wrong (and then again, maybe right and you are wrong) in what they understand, but not ravenous wolves seeking to destroy.

Problem with this is they view me as a false teacher as they do you also for worshipping Jesus.

As far as ravenous wolves, they are here and Jesus and the Apostles warned us of them.

I try real hard to stick with scriptures without ad hominems and accusing or belittleing as some do here.

July 28, 2010 at 7:54 pm#206574

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2010,14:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2010,14:08)

Kathi, there is no scripture that says the Father is the source of Jesus. They are One.

Keith,
I do not say what you say I do. Maybe you don't mean to misrepresent my words, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I have agreed that begotten doesn't ALWAYS mean born yet you say that I think that it always means born.

It is obvious to the early christians that the Father is the source.

Calvin says this (for example);
“He says, then, that we subsist in the Father, and that it is by the Son, because the Father is indeed the foundation of all existence; but, as it is by the Son that we are united to him, so he communicates to us through him the reality of existence.”
found here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom39.xv.i.html

I have also shown recently of the many who say that it was the Father who begat and the Son was the begotten. It is obvious to MANY that the Father is the source, not the Son although He brings things into being by the son.

I'll be gone for a while…

July 28, 2010 at 8:06 pm#206575

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2010,14:54)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2010,14:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2010,14:08)

Kathi, there is no scripture that says the Father is the source of Jesus. They are One.

Keith,
I do not say what you say I do. Maybe you don't mean to misrepresent my words, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I have agreed that begotten doesn't ALWAYS mean born yet you say that I think that it always means born.

It is obvious to the early christians that the Father is the source.

I'll be gone for a while…

Kathi

But none of what you are posting implys Jesus had a beginning and again there is no scripture that says the Father is the source of Jesus.

Why do you use the commentary of “Trinitarians” who obviously believe Jesus is “One God” with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who always existed?

I believe you are misrepresenting their views when you do this.

July 28, 2010 at 8:16 pm#206577

Participant

BUMP FOR KATHI:

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2010,06:08)

The sun generates its rays. Yet there was never a time in the sun's existence that it did not generate its rays. Therefore, there was never a time when the sun was without its radiance.

Jesus is the “radiance” of the Father's glory (Heb. 1). Was there ever a time when the Father did not have radiance?

WAS THERE EVER A TIME THAT THE FATHER DID NOT HAVE RADIANCE?

the Roo

July 28, 2010 at 9:18 pm#206579

JustAskin

Participant

Jack just made up that stuff about the sun.

When last did you listen to a Science program dealing with star formation, Jack?

It's in that title, 'Star Formation'. Star is Sun. 'A Star is born'… Was THE SUN (God) created?

A Star/Sun is created from clouds of stellar dust being compressed so much that a nuclear fusion occurs and heat and light are given off in the reaction.

Therefore, before nuclear fusion took place the 'Sun' did not give off any light but heat only.

Jack is so desperate to make a link that he didn't check his facts.
Jack also says that the rays from the Sun are always part of the Sun because he wants to say that Jesus (rays) is part of God (the Sun)….close Jack, close. The rays are from the Sun, yes, but once emitted, the rays are Independent, not supported, unlinked, cut off from the Sun that emitted it.
Besides, when those who overcome become like Jesus, does this mean that, they too, will become 'God' like you try to imply…the rays of the Sun are the Sun itself, really? The water from the tap is the tap itself; rain from the cloud is the cloud itself, the son of the Father is …of the same essence as the Father, yes, …in a Spiritual sense, that is, Goodness, Righteousness, Truth, Love, power, authority…but those who overcome will also be 'of the same essence as the Father'.
How is a 'God' created? God is not CREATED.

God 'IS' and always 'IS'.

Jesus was 'Spirit' and was then 'Man' and was then 'Spirit' again…so he changed…therefore cannot be 'God' because 'God' does not change, hence His glorious name 'I AM'. Think about it, 'I AM'! What a succint name that perfectly describes the ONE and ONLY, God Amighty, who Is and Was and Always Will Be…the same, never 'changing', complete perfection, there can be nothing better so there is nothing to change to that could be the same or 'better'. Perfection doesn't, WJ, inhabit imperfection.

July 28, 2010 at 10:33 pm#206584