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Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,14:05) Quote (Arnold @ July 25 2010,09:14) Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,05:42) Other then seeing it as very poor scholarship, I really do not care if Irene, Mike, Ja or others believe in the preexisitance of Christ, as long as they do not claim he had some power or knowledge, in his life on Earth, from that prior life, that could impact the choices Christ made. The choices Christ made developed his character and perfected him in the same manner that we are to be developed and perfected. We are to follow him. We cannot do that (in the same way) if the choices he made were due so some knowledge that we do not have. From the moment of his conception to the moment of his death, he must be exactly like us.
Of course even if a preexister agrees with Christ being like us while on Earth, they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life. Those answers can be entertaining like Oh they were stored in some big memory back. LOL
So Jesus did not sin even though He was a man and did not know where He came from? Wow, that is amazing. Come on, He could have never said what He did in John 17:5. He knew where He came from…….If He would not be the Son of God, He would have sinned. If He would not have known where He came from, He would have sinned, just like all other Humans have. But because He was the Son of God and knew where He came from, we can now live forever….Don't you get it, God had to send someone like that, all have fallen short of the glory of God. And Jesus too would have sinned, if He was just a mere man…..And I am forever thankful to God our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. There is no Scripture that says that Jesus has to be like us….And He was not….. Irene
Irene,
In order to come to your conclusions did you do anything like this?
I came to my conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)If you did nothing like this what did you do and why?
As I stated in the Philipians 2 thread I have never seen you get past step one. You voice an opinion/hypothesis and never back up that statement with good solid bible study. You do this over and over again. The same scriptures over and over again. And never once (that I can recall) backed up your opinion with Good study. I would like to assume it is a lack of education on how to study scripture, however I fear it is just stuborness and indoctrination. This has been the crux of my frustration with your posts and you in particular, and though I have at times reacted badly and personally to you, my points on proper study still stand.
Martian! If Jesus who walked this earth said to anyone that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father, does it matter in what time or to whom He said so? To me no. I believe by Faith in Jesus Christ that He is telling me the truth. And then I go by that truth…. Also since we have received God's Holy Spirit we can understand the truth…. You have not given me any Scripture that tells me that Jesus had to be exactly like us?
That is your doctrine and not of God…I believe that He was not exactly like us. Again that is why God had to send someone like Jesus, so we can now live forever….not only that, there are several Scriptures that prove my point and not just one….Look we have gone around in circles and I am really getting tired of it all. For me Jesus preexisted His birth on earth…. Period…And I have proven it to me….You have to prove it to you, not I……for that matter I do not even have to answer your question, which I did….. Jesus is the truth and the way, walk they in it…. I am……IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,03:00) Hi Martian, You said:
Quote If another is born to earth that does not have those memories and experiences or their influence would their decisions have to be different and harder then those of the first.
Yes, harder. Fortunately for us, the bar is set much lower. We don't have to be sinless, because Jesus was.You've said in two threads now:
Quote This is what I do. Did you do anything like this?
I came to these conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)If you did nothing like this what did you do and why?
Yes Martian. I come armed with more than just my interpretation of scripture in most cases. And though I applaud your deep research, you must be a little more careful with it, I think. I have already refuted your understanding of “bara” and “morphe”.
The rest of your post I'm responding to is just more of the same: “I WANT Jesus to have been the exact same as me, therefore I will believe anything written that agrees with me. And if scipture is NOT one of those things, I will ignore it or try to change what the context means, or what the words meant back then until I “morphe” it into something that makes me feel like I can do anything Jesus did.”
Let's say the pastor at my church went on missionary trips since he was 8 years old. Let's say he knew the scriptures by heart start to finish. Let's say he spoke fluent Hebrew and Koine Greek.
Can I still let him be an example to me even though I've done none of those things? Can I learn from him even though he has memories or info that I don't?
Martian, answer just two questions: Do YOU have a human father? Did Jesus? Enough said……..Jesus was different from you.
mike
Sin is not the issue. Character development is the issue. Decisions are the basis for character development. If Christ made decisions on the basis of information not available to us then we cannot make decisions in the like manner or on the same basis. This negates Christ as our example.As Far as Morphe is concerned I posted in the Phil 2 thread.
Bara is another matter. I still hold that the original meaning in the Hebrew is fill up. Most reference works still in use were written in the early 1900s. there was a great deal yet to be learned about the Hebrew culture and culture. For the most part many believed the Hebrew culture was gone in Christ's times. Since the discovery of the Dead Sea scrols and other things it has been shown to be an active culture and language in Christ time.
Thee is contention in the ranks as to the meaning of Bara. On the one side you have the opinion that has been believed for centuries on the other is new research based on more info and more archeological evidence.
These are the reasons I believe Bara means filling.
1. The evidence now surfaced that was not available to the writers of most research books.
2. The Hebrew cultural mindest has been established by many researchers. There is no abstract concept of creating something from nothing passible within the hebrew mind or culture. Abstract thinking is the product of the Western greek philosophical culture. the Hebrews were concrete thinker.
3. the context of Genesis. God filled the heavens and the earth. Then all the following is about God filling his creation. He filled the sky with the moon and sun and stars. He filled the oceans with fish. He filled the sky with birds. He filled the land with animals and even man (the body of dust) was filled with the breath of God and he became a living soul. It is all about filling!Quote (Arnold @ July 26 2010,03:38) Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,14:05) Quote (Arnold @ July 25 2010,09:14) Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,05:42) Other then seeing it as very poor scholarship, I really do not care if Irene, Mike, Ja or others believe in the preexisitance of Christ, as long as they do not claim he had some power or knowledge, in his life on Earth, from that prior life, that could impact the choices Christ made. The choices Christ made developed his character and perfected him in the same manner that we are to be developed and perfected. We are to follow him. We cannot do that (in the same way) if the choices he made were due so some knowledge that we do not have. From the moment of his conception to the moment of his death, he must be exactly like us.
Of course even if a preexister agrees with Christ being like us while on Earth, they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life. Those answers can be entertaining like Oh they were stored in some big memory back. LOL
So Jesus did not sin even though He was a man and did not know where He came from? Wow, that is amazing. Come on, He could have never said what He did in John 17:5. He knew where He came from…….If He would not be the Son of God, He would have sinned. If He would not have known where He came from, He would have sinned, just like all other Humans have. But because He was the Son of God and knew where He came from, we can now live forever….Don't you get it, God had to send someone like that, all have fallen short of the glory of God. And Jesus too would have sinned, if He was just a mere man…..And I am forever thankful to God our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. There is no Scripture that says that Jesus has to be like us….And He was not….. Irene
Irene,
In order to come to your conclusions did you do anything like this?
I came to my conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)If you did nothing like this what did you do and why?
As I stated in the Philipians 2 thread I have never seen you get past step one. You voice an opinion/hypothesis and never back up that statement with good solid bible study. You do this over and over again. The same scriptures over and over again. And never once (that I can recall) backed up your opinion with Good study. I would like to assume it is a lack of education on how to study scripture, however I fear it is just stuborness and indoctrination. This has been the crux of my frustration with your posts and you in particular, and though I have at times reacted badly and personally to you, my points on proper study still stand.
Martian! If Jesus who walked this earth said to anyone that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father, does it matter in what time or to whom He said so? To me no. I believe by Faith in Jesus Christ that He is telling me the truth. And then I go by that truth…. Also since we have received God's Holy Spirit we can understand the truth…. You have not given me any Scripture that tells me that Jesus had to be exactly like us? That is your doctrine and not of God…I believe that He was not exactly like us. Again that is why God had to send someone like Jesus, so we can now live forever….not only that, there are several Scriptures that prove my point and not just one….Look we have gone around in circles and I am really getting tired of it all. For me Jesus preexisted His birth on earth…. Period…And I have proven it to me….You have to prove it to you, not I……for that matter I do not even have to answer your question, which I did….. Jesus is the truth and the way, walk they in it…. I am……Irene
Irene ,
I am going to have limited time on here. Dealing with your posts is not going to be part of it.
Think what you want of it. Your opinion is of little value to me.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,03:00) Hi Martian, You said:
Quote If another is born to earth that does not have those memories and experiences or their influence would their decisions have to be different and harder then those of the first.
Yes, harder. Fortunately for us, the bar is set much lower. We don't have to be sinless, because Jesus was.You've said in two threads now:
Quote This is what I do. Did you do anything like this?
I came to these conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)If you did nothing like this what did you do and why?
Yes Martian. I come armed with more than just my interpretation of scripture in most cases. And though I applaud your deep research, you must be a little more careful with it, I think. I have already refuted your understanding of “bara” and “morphe”.
The rest of your post I'm responding to is just more of the same: “I WANT Jesus to have been the exact same as me, therefore I will believe anything written that agrees with me. And if scipture is NOT one of those things, I will ignore it or try to change what the context means, or what the words meant back then until I “morphe” it into something that makes me feel like I can do anything Jesus did.”
Let's say the pastor at my church went on missionary trips since he was 8 years old. Let's say he knew the scriptures by heart start to finish. Let's say he spoke fluent Hebrew and Koine Greek.
Can I still let him be an example to me even though I've done none of those things? Can I learn from him even though he has memories or info that I don't?
Martian, answer just two questions: Do YOU have a human father? Did Jesus? Enough said……..Jesus was different from you.
mike
FORGOT ONE POINT —–COL 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the pre-eminent one of all the filling.
—–WHY——
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,IT’S ABOUT FILING JUST LIKE GENESIS.
martian,July wrote:[/quote]
Hi Martian,You said:
Quote If Christ made decisions on the basis of information not available to us then we cannot make decisions in the like manner or on the same basis. This negates Christ as our example.
That's what my pastor analogy was all about. Just because he has information I don't does not mean he can't lead me to God or be my example. Your whole point about Christ having to be exactly like us to be an example to us is utterly ridiculous and unscriptural.You didn't answer my questions:
Martian, answer just two questions: Do YOU have a human father? Did Jesus? Enough said……..Jesus was different from you.And as far as bara, do you think God “filled” Adam in His own image? Consider Isaiah 45:18,
For this is what the LORD says—he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.”
The first bolded word rendered as “created” is “bara”. The second bolded word, rendered as “made” is “asah”, which means:
`asah 1) to do, fashion, accomplish, make
The third word rendered “formed” is “yatsar” which means,
yatsar 1) to form, fashion, frame 1a)
I think judging by the other verbs the Hebrews associated with “bara” here, there's a good chance it means “create”.
And I know there is scripture out there that says God created things “out of nothing”, I just can't place my mind on it right now. I'll keep looking.
mike
Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,12:31) FORGOT ONE POINT —– COL 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the pre-eminent one of all the filling.
—–WHY——
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,IT’S ABOUT FILING JUST LIKE GENESIS.
Well, I gotta admit I haven't seen THAT translation before!
mike
Mike………..Actually Martian is right there is no word in Hebrew for create it does not exist, the word is (fatting or filling) Scripture should read God was fatting the earth. Go to Jeff Benners site and see for yourself.
peace and love…………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,12:46) Mike………..Actually Martian is right there is no word in Hebrew for create it does not exist, the word is (fatting or filling) Scripture should read God was fatting the earth. Go to Jeff Benners site and see for yourself. peace and love…………….gene
Gene,You're becoming like a little puppy dog following your master around saying, “He's right!”.
Tell me the difference between the Qal and Hiphal form of “bara”, Gene.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2010,13:34) Hi MB,
Did Adam have a human father?
So he was different too?
Adan was formed out of the dust of the earth, while Jesus came forth from God the Father….He is the literal Son of God. Not like Adam…..IreneTo all,
Nick voiced his concern that I am obsessed by sin and yet scripture instructs us to be “obsessed” with not sinning for one who hungers and thirst for righteousness could certainly be said to be “obsessed” by righteousness. In fact a person who is “obsessed” by righteousness is like “treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field”, Matthew 13:44. Jesus teaches us how to obtain true righteousness so how eager should we be to obtain it?
Satan does not want us to obtain this gift of God and so he panders to our sinful nature by telling us that it cannot be obtained. He uses every type of delusion, lie, trick, and snare he can to prevent us from reaching our goal of being like God in true holiness and righteousness.
One of those tricks is to take Jesus away as an example of a human being. He is a human being just like each of us who while in this world was able to stand against everything the evil one sent against him and yet not sin, Hebrews 4:15 He thus overcame the world and then assured those that believed that they to can overcome the world; John 16:33 and 1 John 5:4-5.
Don’t think that he left you alone to bear the struggles but rather he promises that his burden is light and he will give you rest for your souls, Matthew 11:28-30
This is why believing Jesus is anything but a human being who suffered the same temptation that is common to man is an obstacle endangering your belief in God‘s promise of righteousness. Jesus chose not to sin because he lives by the spirit of holiness. He gives that same spirit to you if you choose to obey all his teachings and thus enables you, when fully mature, to also resist the devil at every opportunity so he will flee.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
1 John 1:1-2
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us“John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was theos.Notice that John opens his first epistle in an almost identical manner to the Book of John.
When you read them together it is obvious that the Word that was manifest is Jesus and that Word was WITH God. He that was from the beginning was WITH the Father and was manifest to the apostles.
I think that some here are burying their heads in sand and do not want to acknowledge a few things here, including what the word “WITH” means. If Jesus as he was, was not WITH God then how can the Word be WITH God in the beginning?
I think it is obvious to an honest person that Jesus is not a mere man as some try to make out, nor is he God that others argue toward, rather he is the Word that was WITH God and he came in the flesh. He existed in the form of God or with God's nature as it is written, emptied himself, existed in human nature, died, rose from the dead, and returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began as it is written.
All these scriptures paint a clear picture that Jesus was the Word that was with God and came to earth as a man and returned to the glory he had with the Father.
I don't buy the “Jesus is God” doctrine, nor the “Jesus is just a man” doctrine. No I buy into John's writings, that Jesus is the Word of God that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest in the flesh and returned to the glory that he had with God in the beginning.
I don't care that some think that they can't relate to a Jesus who had such beginnings, and want to think of Jesus as a man no different to us. But surely such people lack true vision and understanding.
Is it not a great thing for a rich person to live as a poor person in order to teach the poor how to become rich. Or do you prefer that he was created a poor man and made no sacrifice to be with us?
Whatever our preference, it should be the truth that matters and if John wrote the truth, then why do some argue against him?
T8………..One simple problem and that is the WORD who is GOD the FATHER was (IN) Jesus, the word it self was (NOT) Jesus. 'THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE (NOT) (MY) WORDS BUT THE WORD OF HIM WHO (SENT) ME. When are you ever going to get it brother (GOD) was literally (IN) Jesus speaking through Him (HIS) words. That does not make Jesus a GOD or GOD'S Word, but a spokesman of GOD, Who spoke to us God the Fathers words. Can't you see that. If John wanted to say Jesus He would have just written it there. Wake up brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,12:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,12:46) Mike………..Actually Martian is right there is no word in Hebrew for create it does not exist, the word is (fatting or filling) Scripture should read God was fatting the earth. Go to Jeff Benners site and see for yourself. peace and love…………….gene
Gene,You're becoming like a little puppy dog following your master around saying, “He's right!”.
Tell me the difference between the Qal and Hiphal form of “bara”, Gene.
mike
The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible lists Bara as follows.
Fill- The fattening or filling up of something. The filling of the Earth in Genesis 1 with sun, moon, plants, animals ect. And the filling of man with life and the image of God. [freq, 54]
(verb form – paal, niphal, hiphal, piel)
ISBE says concerning Bara –
“We cannot say that the origin of matter is excluded from the Genesis account of creation and this apart from the use of “bara” as admitting of material and means of creation.”
In other words the use of the word “bara” does not claim to create from nothing but that the materials already existed prior to the Genesis account. God simply filled them.
(before someone starts, I do believe that every material in creation is sourced from God. We may only have the story recorded in Genesis after the materials came into being.)
Again this fits in with the cultural mindset of the Ancient Hebrews. Because of the culture of the Hebrews the concept of something coming from nothing is not in their way of thinking. For this reason the manner in which matter came about is nothing that can be articulated by an ancient Hebrews such as Moses.
Jeff Benner of the Ancient Hebrew Research Center says this —
The largest contributing factor in mistranslations of the Biblical text is that the translators and readers of the Bible come from a western philosophy of thought. The original authors of the Biblical text, the Hebrews, are classified as Orientals whose philosophy of thought is eastern. Many times these two philosophies are in opposition of each other. For a more detailed description of the differences between western and eastern thought see my article at the Ancient Hebrew Research Center.
Most English translations of Genesis 1:1 read something like “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. Most readers assume that this is an accurate translation of the original Hebrew but, this is not the case. The first word in the Hebrew Bible is “bereshiyt”. The “be” at the beginning is a prefix meaning “in”, “with”, or “within”. The word “reshiyt” means “beginning” and can be the beginning of a space or time. It is derived from the root “rosh” meaning “head”. The word “the” in the English translations is added to text as it does not exist in the Hebrew. Hence, “bereshiyt” literally means “in beginning” or “in a beginning” (the articles “a” and “an” are implied in Hebrew). From this we can conclude that Genesis 1:1 is not specifically speaking of “the” beginning, but may be speaking of “a” beginning.
The second word in the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 is the verb “bara”. This word is always translated as “create” in this verse and is usually theologically understood to mean “to make out of nothing”. If we compare Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 2:7 we will see that this is not possible. In Genesis 2:7 the Bible states that God “made” the man from the ground but in Genesis 1:26 it states that God “created” man. Therefore, the Hebrew word “bar” does not mean “to create out of nothing”. This very same Hebrew word is used in 1 Samuel 2:29 but is translated as “fattening”. The Hebrews language was very concrete oriented meaning its vocabulary is related to something that can be sense by the five senses. Words such as “believe”, “trust” and “create” are all abstract words that are foreign concepts to the Ancient Hebrews. In the Samuel passage we see the original meaning of the verb “bara” which is to be “fat”.
If you have a source that says Bara in Genesis 1:1 is of the qal tence, I submit it is wrong for the following reasons –
1.The Hebrew culture of the time could not allow for the rational that something came from nothing.
2.The entire context of Genesis 1 is the filing of the universe including Earth and man.
3.The expert testimony of Dr. Jeff Benner and the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon along with ISBE.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2010,01:35) T8………..One simple problem and that is the WORD who is GOD the FATHER was (IN) Jesus, the word it self was (NOT) Jesus. 'THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE (NOT) (MY) WORDS BUT THE WORD OF HIM WHO (SENT) ME. When are you ever going to get it brother (GOD) was literally (IN) Jesus speaking through Him (HIS) words. That does not make Jesus a GOD or GOD'S Word, but a spokesman of GOD, Who spoke to us God the Fathers words. Can't you see that. If John wanted to say Jesus He would have just written it there. Wake up brother. peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Gene! And that became flesh. We know that God never walked this earth, and that no one has heard His voice and seen His form….but we do know that Jesus did. Along with Rev, 19:13 and verse 16 it makes it clear that Jesus is the Spoken Word of God, He will come again as The Word of God, as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. That is what Rev, 19 verses 13and 16 say….. None of the plan of God or intellect…..Nonsense….Quote (t8 @ July 26 2010,05:24) I don't buy the “Jesus is God” doctrine, nor the “Jesus is just a man” doctrine. No I buy into John's writings, that Jesus is the Word of God that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest in the flesh and returned to the glory that he had with God in the beginning.
No its obvious you don't buy into Johns writings.First of all you quote…
Quote (t8 @ July 26 2010,05:24) John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was theos.
Why “theos” instead of God like the scriptures say? It seems you are trying to obscure the meaning.In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:1
You say he is not just a man but he is not God either, then what is he t8?
A demi-god is all you have left.
I find it interesting that you berate the anti-prexistence crowd for not accepting the literal interpretation of the scrptures you quote and yet you reject the literal interpretation of John 1:1.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and THE WORD WAS GOD. John 1:1
What right do you have to claim your view is right when the scripture above is plain and clear!
WJ
WJ………….I see the word (Word there) but where is the word (Jesus) Written there? forcing texts is not a good thing but you Trinitarians and Preexistences all have no problem pulling out word and replacing them with your own. Wonder what John will say probably something like this , DO YOU THINK I WAS SO STUPID THAT IF I WANTED TO MEAN JESUS I WOULD NOT HAVE JUST WRITTEN JESUS THERE. Then what will be your answer, Duh, we didn't know that.
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,12:53) WJ………….I see the word (Word there) but where is the word (Jesus) Written there? forcing texts is not a good thing but you Trinitarians and Preexistences all have no problem pulling out word and replacing them with your own. Wonder what John will say probably something like this , DO YOU THINK I WAS SO STUPID THAT IF I WANTED TO MEAN JESUS I WOULD NOT HAVE JUST WRITTEN JESUS THERE. Then what will be your answer, Duh, we didn't know that. peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
GeneScriptures interpret themselves
John 1:14 tells us who the Word is!
1 John 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13 confirms this truth.
You totally deny the scritpures that says who the “Word” is that was with God and was God.
You are of the anti-christ spirit for you do not believe Jesus came in the flesh!
WJ
WJ………Because his name shall be called the Word of God, does not make him the words He spoke no were those word from Him, they were from GOD the Father, who spoke to us (THROUGH) Christ as He also did the Prophets. If Jesus claimed to be those words he would be a liar and a thief. “THE WORD I AM TELLING YOU ARE (NOT) MY WORD BUT THE WORDS OF HIM WHO SENT ME”. So how could Jesus be the very words he spoke then. Forcing text to say or infer what it does not specifically infer is bad form WJ. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
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