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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2010,01:33) T8……….Lets take one thing at a time…..OK…..Phil 2:6..> Who, (being) My Greek translates it the as (EXISTING) a present tense expression. Lets stay there first what do you with some research think about that. Lets be honest with each other here brother. That is to me the Key of understand that scripture. Now if we decide it is indeed Present tense then that can greately change our perceptions there. Because it would not add any credibility to a past tense.
Hi Gene,If it was present tense, then how did Jesus empty himself and come as a man and die AFTER Paul said these things?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2010,01:33) T8……….Lets take one thing at a time…..OK…..Phil 2:6..> Who, (being) My Greek translates it the as (EXISTING) a present tense expression. Lets stay there first what do you with some research think about that. Lets be honest with each other here brother. That is to me the Key of understand that scripture. Now if we decide it is indeed Present tense then that can greately change our perceptions there. Because it would not add any credibility to a past tense.
Perhaps we could have a debate about it, so that we cover every point. That is if you can handle a slow debate. I don't have much time these days.In case not, I want to point out that although he existed in the form of God, he then emptied himself and partook of flesh.
It sounds easy to follow until we take your view.
Although he presently exists in the form of God, he emptied himself and took on flesh. And are the other 2 points also in the present, because that even throws it more out of whack.
The way to understand your view would be to adopt an eternal doctrine like Jesus as a dual being. i.e., he is divine and flesh at the same time (present). Two natures one being. Now we are back to the Trinity Doctrine which we both know is incorrect.
Quote (martian @ July 21 2010,10:41) I am off here for a while. You that have apposed my posts have at it. Declare your victory. It matters very little just like this site matters little. Have you victory in your 4 square inch kingdom.
This site is an entertainment venue only. Lately it has been entertaining like visiting a nut house. you can laugh at the nuts for a while and then it gets old.
Continue please in the irrational ward. At least here you are having little or no impact on real Christianity.
Like 4 year olds you play house and think it really matters.
Many on here are religious and not relational. Dectrinal and not scriptural. Traditional and not functional.
I'm disgusted with it.
I hope you enjoyed the 4 inch kingdom while you were here. I have to say that with 1000 members divided by 4 inches, that makes each person including yourself very insignificant. And yes we know that people get upset when people don't follow their way.But surely we should be espousing truth and if people do not follow truth, then why should we be upset? It is not a pride thing because it is not about us, but truth. And we know that a percentage of people will reject truth. What is the problem? Why get upset?
The only reason for being upset is that you want people to follow you and they are not. Or is it something else?
Quote (t8 @ July 21 2010,15:38) Quote (martian @ July 21 2010,10:41) I am off here for a while. You that have apposed my posts have at it. Declare your victory. It matters very little just like this site matters little. Have you victory in your 4 square inch kingdom.
This site is an entertainment venue only. Lately it has been entertaining like visiting a nut house. you can laugh at the nuts for a while and then it gets old.
Continue please in the irrational ward. At least here you are having little or no impact on real Christianity.
Like 4 year olds you play house and think it really matters.
Many on here are religious and not relational. Dectrinal and not scriptural. Traditional and not functional.
I'm disgusted with it.
I hope you enjoyed the 4 inch kingdom while you were here. I have to say that with 1000 members divided by 4 inches, that makes each person including yourself very insignificant. And yes we know that people get upset when people don't follow their way.But surely we should be espousing truth and if people do not follow truth, then why should we be upset? It is not a pride thing because it is not about us, but truth. And we know that a percentage of people will reject truth. What is the problem? Why get upset?
The only reason for being upset is that you want people to follow you and they are not. Or is it something else?
It is not about following me. Believe me if some of the people here were following me I would run to the nearest police station for help.
It is completely frustrating to deal with totally irrational people that cannot think clearly. But as I know to be true you would need those attributes to not see the simple truth I have been posting.Frustration is not entertaining. Entertainment is the best anyone can reasonably claim to gather here.
My statement is still true – Many on here are religious and not relational. Dectrinal and not scriptural. Traditional and not functional.It is true that there are all sorts here.
I think the point is that all views are able to be compared to scripture.
However, not all are able to be taught by scripture. Some use scripture only to back up their already pre-defined beliefs. Others let scripture teach them. First there was the Trinitarians, then the Oneness movement, and now it seems the assault is from the “Jesus was created 2000 years ago and never existed before” group.
One by one, they are all challenged by scripture and found wanting.
That is not to say that truth is not discovered by others here. It is discovered by those who have ears to hear because many views are placed against the backdrop of scripture to see what doesn't line up.
Like I have said before, if you or anyone else is of the truth, then you won't take it personally when men reject the truth or you because you are a servant of that truth and not the truth itself. When you are offended, it is your pride that is offended and if there is pride, then that means that you might be of the attitude that you are the truth and people need to listen to you.
That is why many here stick to scripture and BTW, contrary to your comment, doctrine is very important, just as relationship is important.
2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.Quote (JustAskin @ July 21 2010,11:25) t8, Yes, I thought of that but quickly realised it would be childish, Circular, and besides, it was not that important.
There was scope for plenty more but I limited it to just what I posted.
Contrary to popular belief, answering a question with a question can be a good answer because it can show up the original question for what it is and may render that original question non-important in the mind of the hearer thereafter.e.g., when people ask you if you believe that Jesus is God or Jesus is just a man, responding to that with, “Can I ask you a question first. Have you stopped stealing from your employer?” shows the hearer that a yes and no response doesn't work with a question that is not relevant. If you answer yes, it means that you were stealing from your employer before-hand and no, is even worse. In the case of is Jesus God or Man, it doesn't allow you to answer that he is the Word of God for example.
But sure, I respect the way you handled it, although a man is entitled to ask by what authority we speak in. Wasn't Jesus asked that same question?
Anyway in our case, in the authority (name) of Jesus Christ is a good answer if it is true.
Quote (t8 @ July 21 2010,21:23) Like I have said before, if you or anyone else is of the truth, then you won't take it personally when men reject the truth or you because you are a servant of that truth and not the truth itself.
The Lord came from the highest place, and lowered Himself to be the laughingstock of humanity. Degraded to the point of being unrecognisable; despised; rejected; reviled; spat on; loathed; mocked; spurned; and detested; walking the lowest path—– the path of utter humility—–but He overcame.Shimmer,
Jesus did overcome but what he overcame was the temptations of the world and through him each of us can overcome if we choose to obey all his teachings.
God did test him in many ways just as he test each of us and his faith enabled him to allways trust in God and deny his own will. In this and many ways he served as our example as well as the prototype of what we will be if we persist in believing.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Hi t8,
Q&A,
Answering Q with Q as Answer. True. Especially if the q's own answer will answer his proffered, seemingly 'clever' q!By the way (And Edj, who asked me about my Math ..we say Maths.. ability) Martians said '4 Square inch kingdom'. This equates to only 4000th inch square, or 2inch length by 2000th inch width strip, per person
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2010,14:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2010,01:33) T8……….Lets take one thing at a time…..OK…..Phil 2:6..> Who, (being) My Greek translates it the as (EXISTING) a present tense expression. Lets stay there first what do you with some research think about that. Lets be honest with each other here brother. That is to me the Key of understand that scripture. Now if we decide it is indeed Present tense then that can greately change our perceptions there. Because it would not add any credibility to a past tense.
Hi Gene,If it was present tense, then how did Jesus empty himself and come as a man and die AFTER Paul said these things?
mike
Mike ……..It does not say Hr emptied Himself and (CAME) as a Man. It say He existing with the nature of GOD (on earth) He was anointed with God's Spirit, this gave Him God's Nature, But he did think (mindset) having that nature to try to rob GOD of any Glory by presenting himself equal with GOD. But he even though he had God's nature, the fullness of His spirit (IN) him He did not (THINK) HIMSELF BETTER THEN US AND TRY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD. This whole thing has nothing to do with any Preexistent state of Jesus , but is the state of mind he was in when as a human being possessing God's Nature as a man. Using this as a true representing of Preexistence is (NOT) what Paul had in mind at all. Read the context and understand what Paul was driving at. He was taking about a state of Mind a mindset that Jesus as a MAN possessed.Quote (t8 @ July 21 2010,15:33) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2010,01:33) T8……….Lets take one thing at a time…..OK…..Phil 2:6..> Who, (being) My Greek translates it the as (EXISTING) a present tense expression. Lets stay there first what do you with some research think about that. Lets be honest with each other here brother. That is to me the Key of understand that scripture. Now if we decide it is indeed Present tense then that can greately change our perceptions there. Because it would not add any credibility to a past tense.
Perhaps we could have a debate about it, so that we cover every point. That is if you can handle a slow debate. I don't have much time these days.In case not, I want to point out that although he existed in the form of God, he then emptied himself and partook of flesh.
It sounds easy to follow until we take your view.
Although he presently exists in the form of God, he emptied himself and took on flesh. And are the other 2 points also in the present, because that even throws it more out of whack.
The way to understand your view would be to adopt an eternal doctrine like Jesus as a dual being. i.e., he is divine and flesh at the same time (present). Two natures one being. Now we are back to the Trinity Doctrine which we both know is incorrect.
T8………..I do believe God the Father was indeed (IN) Jesus literally at the time of his earthly existence so i guess from that stand point you could say i do believe in dual nature. Remember Jesus said the Father (IN) me (He) does the works. And again it was The Father that spoke through Jesus literally when Jesus uttered, “destory this temple and in three days (I) God will raise it up”. Jesus was dead he sure couldn't raise himself up. Don't you believe God literally does exists in all who have his spirit in them. The difference between me and the trinitarians is that i believe God can exist in all his creation (literally exist in ALL of it) not just three essences of beings.T8…………trying to make Phil to mean what in fact Paul was not even talking about is forcing the text , Paul was showing that Jesus who was existing in a human body with the very nature of God (IN) him did not try to rob God and makes himself equal with him but knew he was fashioned as a Human being and worked with in those human nature conditions as a servant of God , he wasn't trying to grasp for the glory afforded him as a Son of God. that is all Paul's point was there. Why try to force the text to mean more them Paul intended is that not what trinitarians do?.
peace and love to you and yours brother………………..gene
Quote (JustAskin @ July 21 2010,03:13) TheodoreJ, Does it seem that way to you?
Did it seem wrong to you?
Was it wrong what was said?
Did the post contain truth?
Are you making a criticism, positive or negative?
Answer these questions and the answer you seek will be within.
Greetings JA…..We will take the last question first ,if you don't mind….The answer is..I was making an observation niether critical nor supportive…..The truth you speak of is according to your belief system and not necessarily mine or even the forums'….This is not to say there is no truth in what you say..
What you said was not wrong in its entirety but is was self serving..to reiterate my early statment with respect to right or wrong this was an observation….if you view it as criticism than Iam sorry….Now Will You Answer The Question?Theodorej………..The nature is the way we exist it is what we reflect or give off our personality you might say. It comes from the Spirit within us. That is the way i see it anyway.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (t8 @ July 21 2010,20:23) It is true that there are all sorts here. I think the point is that all views are able to be compared to scripture.
However, not all are able to be taught by scripture. Some use scripture only to back up their already pre-defined beliefs. Others let scripture teach them. First there was the Trinitarians, then the Oneness movement, and now it seems the assault is from the “Jesus was created 2000 years ago and never existed before” group.
One by one, they are all challenged by scripture and found wanting.
That is not to say that truth is not discovered by others here. It is discovered by those who have ears to hear because many views are placed against the backdrop of scripture to see what doesn't line up.
Like I have said before, if you or anyone else is of the truth, then you won't take it personally when men reject the truth or you because you are a servant of that truth and not the truth itself. When you are offended, it is your pride that is offended and if there is pride, then that means that you might be of the attitude that you are the truth and people need to listen to you.
That is why many here stick to scripture and BTW, contrary to your comment, doctrine is very important, just as relationship is important.
2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Actually being frustrated has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It may very well be a flesh reaction to the uselessness of debating those that are unwilling to discover anything outside of their preconceived ideas. I learned a long time ago that it was useless to debate with JW's, WW Church of God, Catholics, Moonies, or Hari chrishnas. Those groups use indoctrination techniques that make it near impossible even in person to deprogram them let alone on a forum. You can show proofs all day long and they will just give you the plastic smile and repeat the same stuff over and over again. They will just spill out the same scriptures over again with no explaination as to why they think it means as they say. Nor will they seriously look at any explanations I say.
This board has been the same way. I post a web site that clearly states why I believe what I do and I am told they will not look at it. I post understanding from the cultural mindset of those that wrote the Bible and it is ignored. I post paralel scriptures forming a precedent in scripture and it is ignored. Few if any are here to learn. At least not among the common posters. Among those 1000 members you boast there cannot be more then 40 or 50 that actively post on here. For the most part no one wants to honestly study scripture. No one is willing to hash out a set of simple rules of hermaneutics for the debaters to agree on. Several times I have listed a set of simple widely accepted principles for determining truth from scripture. I have stated I am willing to discuss any subtractions or additions to those rules. No one is interested.No one is really interested in honest bible study. Everyone is here to spout off there beliefs without proof derived in an honest way.
that is the source of my frustration. I could give a wit if anyone follows me or not. I do care about them following the truth as found in scripture through honest study. I do care about people being able to complete God's plans and purpose for their lives without being crippled by false doctrines and concepts.You say-
I think the point is that all views are able to be compared to scripture.
Reply-
That is true but the results can only be trusted if the principles used to discern that truth are honest to begin with.You say –
However, not all are able to be taught by scripture. Some use scripture only to back up their already pre-defined beliefs. Others let scripture teach them. First there was the Trinitarians, then the Oneness movement, and now it seems the assault is from the “Jesus was created 2000 years ago and never existed before” group.
Reply-
As a moderator you show your own bias. I noticed that you did not include the preexisters in your group that is unteachable or that preexisters ever use sciptures to back up their predefined beliefs.If you are so unbiased and open to truth then you and I will debate the subject. First you list your principles for studying scripture. If you disagree we will discuss alternatives. Are you willing to do that?
Theodorej,
By the authority of TRUTH.
By the authority that IS Truth.
Virtually no one in this forum has changed their view nor admitted that another ha taught them anything in this forum.
When a truthfulness is spoken, it is either ignored (Ok, you spoke truth but i ain't gonna give you the satisfaction of knowing it)
Or it is refuted by subtefuge argument (Nah, nah, nah, Scripture may say so but Isbeal, in his second sermon on plesbian sectarianism didn't think so. It 's all in 'WickedPedia')All that is required to prove the Scriptures is IN the Scriptures.
The mass majority in this forum are here to push their theory and not to learn. Hence obstancy is the order of the day.
How many times has the same person posted the same false post irrespective of being proved wrong each time?Is it believed that a new audience will bring concurrence or by repeating a false statement it will become truth by subliminal reading by others.
JustAskin just uses the Scriptures…and who has refuted his expisitions with honesty?
I ask, show me one place.
I ask many times and not ONCE has a single poster posted a rebuttal.
But, as t8, says, and JustAskin has written, Truth is for the individual. If truth is spoken or written, but ignored by the many, but even one person reads, or hears and takes it on board, even without openly admitting it, and embodies it in their own belief, then that one, and the one through whom the Holy Spirit revealed it, will be blessed.
But if the revealer takes the revelation as his own, then he denies the Holy Spirit. That one will get upset that others do not agree with him.
This is not to be taken that exhorting is wrong because Jesus himself exhorted his Disciples and was exasperated by the lack of understanding of the Jews, Pharasees, Scribes, Sadducees, Priest and others.
It is the taking of the revelation as ones own, possibly embellishing it in an attempt to make it seem more pallitable (This is possibly how the Trinity came about, being easier to teach to nations of tri-Gods)
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