Preexistence

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2010,03:50)

Hi Marty, You said, “WHAT was with the Father?”  The question is “WHO was with the Father”. And true it is the Father who GIVES the bread of life, but Jesus IS THAT BREAD. One scripture at a time, then we can get somewhere. Just do the debate with Irene so we can end this run around. mike

Mike:

We have already been over and over the scriptures. I have given my understanding of this, and so there is not point in going over the same things again.

No debate. I am not trying to win a contest. It is time to pray.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,07:17)

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:18) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:01) Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth? Christ as our example is a scriptural truth.  Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”. mike I do not read an answer to my second question. Are you saying that Christ gave up all that made him different then humanity so he could be our example? Phil does not each that. Read the web site I offered in response to your questions. Martain!   Jesus is the Son of God and was never all the way like us.  What difference does it make anyway.  You are grasping for straws, just like the website.  i read some of it, it is so much to grasp, and I do agree with some of it.  But at the end what He was saying is that Phil. 2 tells us how we should live.  But the fact is that Jesus was all of that too.  So what difference does it make.  He is still the firstborn of all creation.  He was with His Father before the world was, by Jesus own words, in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” Also John 1:1 He was there with God in the beginning, and He will come again as “The Word of God. Rev, 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and  His name is called The Word of God. verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. The connection I am trying to show here is that the Word that became flesh is Jesus in verse 14 of John 1 It all hangs together.  And all the rest of the Scriptures, which I am not writing out.   John 6:38-40 where He s saying that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father…. Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of the creation of God….. Rev.. 3:14 Says that He is the beginning of the creation of God.  I will write this over and over again if you all do not get it…..I could understand if there would only be one Scripture, but all of these and you still don't except it?  Come on stop calling Jesus a liar….He said that He came from Heaven and that He was there before the world was…. May the LORD our Father open your mind and stop  being stubborn about this….. I will always say when I am wrong and I have done so here too, how about you…….Irene

Irene,
I want to say this nicely if possible. I have no desire to hurt your feelings. However I have little respect for your interpretation practices.
All you ever seem to be able to do is post the same scriptures over and over again. You refuse to study the word firstborn to see if you are right about it. You do the same with creation. You offer no proof that you opinion fits within the culture of the times. You do no cross referencing to other scriptures on the same subject. You seem to have forgotten that there is an Old Testament and that nothing in the NT is to be understood outside of the OT. You ask me why I do not believe what you post. You have posted nothing that I cannot get reading my own English translation. But I want to know what the writers meant in their language.
Example – If I say today that something is “cool” I would be indicating that it is good or I like it. If I were to say the same sentence 100 years ago some one would ask about it's temperature. The meanings of words change over time according to the culture and translations. You cannot just read an English translation of the bible ad think you understand the Greek or Hebrew behind it. You talk about following man but if you are depending on the translator to give you the correct and complete meaning of a word then you are following the translator.

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,07:39)

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,04:47) One more point. Jesus was king over Israel because he completed God's plan to be a perfect man and was elgible for the mantle of the Messiah. He knew that he had all authority on Earth because he never gave it up as Adam did. He said I could ask my father and he would send 12 legions of Angels to save him. Jesus knew that God would do it if he ask but he did not. He did not seek to save himself but gave up his desires to live for his brethren. this is specifically what christ gave up. He gave up his own even ligitimate needs for his brothers. He literally gave his life for his brothers. He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS,because He was The Word of God in verse 16 and 13.  Not just because He was a man…… It is two fold….. He was and is the firstborn of all creation  and the only Son who came forth from the Father.  While we are created out of the dust of the earth…. Is He still the same then we are?  Of course not….He never was….why, because all fall short of the glory of God….Jehovah God had to send someone like Jesus or we would stay in the grave forever….Can you prove that Jesus according to you, has to be completley like us????Scripture please…….. Irene

Jesus is the first to fullfill God’s plan. (I Cor 15/20,23)
Jesus is a decendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)
Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)
Jesus has a soul (Matt 26/38)
Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46)
Jesus has a will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39)
Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is the second adam (I Cor 15/45)
Jesus is a prophet (A human calling) and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh. (John 8/40)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 1/41and John 4/25&26) (A human Calling)
Jesus lives a sinless life.(II Cor 5/21)
Jesus is a made just like his brothers. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 )
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)

Just a few to start

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
Yes the death of Jesus ended any link with possible prelife.
His life now is in the Spirit of his God.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Martian,

Your post is a very well laid out story and explanation of why you understand it like you do, but it has major holes in it.

1.  I don't read in scripture anywhere about Adam and Eve thinking they were God or equal to Him.  Gen 3:5 says,

5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.“

The only way Satan told them they would be like God is in knowing good from evil.  Later verses have them hiding from God, and Eve recognizing that it was through the help of Jehovah that she had borne a child.  Their offspring were also well aware that they were not God(s) just because they knew good from evil.  They feared Jehovah God.  Adam had no possible expectation of “grasping equality with God”.  So using that as an “anti” last Adam comparison doesn't really work.

Besides, when on earth did people think Jesus WAS God himself?  How could you say he didn't grasp at equality with God when he was on earth if nobody ever thought he was God Himself?  Son of God – yes.  Demon possessed – yes.  Was making himself equal to God in a blasphemous way – yes.  But who ever thought he WAS God while he was on earth?

First you say:

Quote

Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them

Then you say:

Quote

Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.

Which appearance did he have?  God or bond servant?  Isaiah 53 says,

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
      and like a root out of dry ground.
      He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
      nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
      a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
      Like one from whom men hide their faces
      he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
      and carried our sorrows,
      yet we considered him stricken by God,
      smitten by him, and afflicted.

I never had the picture in my mind of Jesus like the handsome man in the paintings hanging from a cross.  I don't think he had a “handsome” or “godly” appearance, but that's just how I imagine it from Isaiah and other scriptures.

Back to your post.  The main hole I find is that Jesus was in the “form” of a man ever since Mary gave birth to him.  He was never in the “form” of God while on earth no matter what words you use to describe “form”.  People flocked to him because of his works and teachings, not because they thought he looked like what God would look like as a man.  This “godly” appearance is never mentioned in scripture that I'm aware of.  So I don't know where to fit in “being in the form of God” while Jesus was on earth.  Plus, how could he be in the “form of God” on earth, then suddenly empty himself to become “in the form of man”?  When did this happen?  Did he stop washing his clothes or cleaning himself?  I mean, when is it said that Jesus' physical appearance on earth went from a “godly” one to a “regular guy” one?

Too many holes Martian.  Your story doesn't explain, even if Jesus had an “outward appearance of a godly person” WHEN HE WAS A MAN, how it could be said he emptied himself to become in the form OF A MAN when he was ALREADY A MAN?

I agree that the verses are about how we should imitate Jesus by leaving behind all we have to follow God.  But I think the whole point is that Jesus left more than a carpenter's life behind.  It was his wonderful position at God's right hand that he willingly left behind to do his God's will.  And that's actually what Phil says…….I think you read too much into it to serve your own purpose of making what Jesus accomplished seem more attainable to you.

my two cents,
mike

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,09:04)

Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,07:17) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:18) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:01) Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth? Christ as our example is a scriptural truth.  Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”. mike I do not read an answer to my second question. Are you saying that Christ gave up all that made him different then humanity so he could be our example? Phil does not each that. Read the web site I offered in response to your questions. Martain!   Jesus is the Son of God and was never all the way like us.  What difference does it make anyway.  You are grasping for straws, just like the website.  i read some of it, it is so much to grasp, and I do agree with some of it.  But at the end what He was saying is that Phil. 2 tells us how we should live.  But the fact is that Jesus was all of that too.  So what difference does it make.  He is still the firstborn of all creation.  He was with His Father before the world was, by Jesus own words, in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” Also John 1:1 He was there with God in the beginning, and He will come again as “The Word of God. Rev, 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and  His name is called The Word of God. verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. The connection I am trying to show here is that the Word that became flesh is Jesus in verse 14 of John 1 It all hangs together.  And all the rest of the Scriptures, which I am not writing out.   John 6:38-40 where He s saying that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father…. Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of the creation of God….. Rev.. 3:14 Says that He is the beginning of the creation of God.  I will write this over and over again if you all do not get it…..I could understand if there would only be one Scripture, but all of these and you still don't except it?  Come on stop calling Jesus a liar….He said that He came from Heaven and that He was there before the world was…. May the LORD our Father open your mind and stop  being stubborn about this….. I will always say when I am wrong and I have done so here too, how about you…….Irene Irene, I want to say this nicely if possible. I have no desire to hurt your feelings. However I have little respect for your interpretation practices. All you ever seem to be able to do is post the same scriptures over and over again. You refuse to study the word firstborn to see if you are right about it. You do the same with creation. You offer no proof that you opinion fits within the culture of the times. You do no cross referencing to other scriptures on the same subject. You seem to have forgotten that there is an Old Testament and that nothing in the NT is to be understood outside of the OT. You ask me why I do not believe what you post. You have posted nothing that I cannot get reading my own English translation. But I want to know what the writers meant in their language. Example –  If I say today that something is “cool” I would be indicating that it is good or I like it.  If I were to say the same sentence 100 years ago some one would ask about it's temperature. The meanings of words change over time according to the culture and translations. You cannot just read an English translation of the bible ad think you understand the Greek or Hebrew behind it. You talk about following man but if you are depending on the translator to give you the correct and complete meaning of a word then you are following the translator.

I really don't care if you have respect for me or not. What I do care about is God's Word and it tells me that Jesus was in Heaven and came down to do the will of the Father….
Point one you make, I gave two Scriptures as far as firstborn goes, I gave two Scriptures as far as The Word of God goes…I gave two Scriptures that said that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father….. And yet you have no respect for those Scriptures and deny them over and over again….. I should really listen to my Husband and don't say anything to you no more…. I would not repeat what He called you….. so much for respect….??? So just because what I am saying and what Jesus is saying is not in the OT we should ignore those Scriptures now?? That is about the silliest thing I have heard yet. And for your information I got most of those Scriptures from t8 HN….. so much for studying them….. How do you think I started to believing in them in the first place….. It was a JW that made us aware of this… and we studied to see if it was the truth…..boy am I glad my Husband and I agree on most issues……And as far as looking at them in another language, weisst du ich kann deutsch sprechen und wir haben auch eine deutsche Bible, ist dass genug, oder muss ich noch eine andere sprache lernen. Ich bin zu alt dafuer…. es faengt jetzt an zu regnen, bei euch auch?? May the LORD be with you, Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,06:20)

Do you really insist that your doctrine is true when it produces doubt on the mission of Christ as our example? Are you so intrenced in your doctrine that you would sacrifice a major mission of the Messiah to keep it intact? Is that in any way functional? Do you care if your doctrine functions to support Christ's mission or does it not matter to you?

Hi Martian,

This is the very crux of your problem. You are appealing to me to see things YOUR way, not because you have scripture that denies MY way, but solely based on your “wish” to have Christ be exactly like we are.

You are almost trying to “guilt” me into agreeing with your view – against what scripture teaches – just so we can be happy knowing “whatever Jesus did, we can do to, because we're EXACTLY like him”.

I'm sorry, man. That's just not scriptural.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 20 2010,08:12)

Mike: We have already been over and over the scriptures. I have given my understanding of this, and so there is not point in going over the same things again. No debate. I am not trying to win a contest. It is time to pray. Love in Christ, Marty

Fair enough Marty!

I missed the first 800 pages of this thread, so I can imagine you have been through the scriptures before. Let's pray away, brother!

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,09:04)

Example –  If I say today that something is “cool” I would be indicating that it is good or I like it.  If I were to say the same sentence 100 years ago some one would ask about it's temperature. The meanings of words change over time according to the culture and translations. You cannot just read an English translation of the bible ad think you understand the Greek or Hebrew behind it.

Martian,

That was my exact reason for quoting Eusebius.  Apparently, in the year 325, “firstborn” meant “firstborn”, not “preeminent” like the trinitarians like to imagine, or he wouldn't have thought Jesus to be the “firstborn of every creature” BEFORE ALL THE AGES.  What “creatures” were there for Jesus to be “preeminent” over BEFORE ALL THE AGES?

The trinitarians even go as far as to say the “every creature” part refers “only to mankind”, making the statement say Jesus was “preeminent over mankind”.  Was there mankind existent BEFORE ALL THE AGES?

You're scolding Irene about understanding what the words meant “then”, and I've showed you.  But you chastised me for bringing up Eusebius.  

mike

[mikeboll64]

martian,July wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Jesus is the first to fullfill God’s plan. (I Cor 15/20,23)

How does pre-existence make this not possible?  1 Cor 15:47,
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Quote

Jesus is a decendant of David.  (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)

Also the “root” of David.  Luke 20:44,
44David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?”

Quote

Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)

Why are they “STEP” siblings, not whole siblings?

Quote

Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)

Yes, and he says,
John 6:62
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!  Where do you think he was “BEFORE”?

Quote

Jesus has a soul (Matt 26/38) Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46) Jesus has a will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39) Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43) Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38) Jesus cries (John 11/35)

He became in the form of man.

Quote

Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)

He says that our God is his God.  That was the case before he was flesh, while he was flesh, and even now that he is clothed in a “spiritual body”.

Quote

Jesus is the second adam (I Cor 15/45)

But with a distinction,
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Quote

Jesus is a prophet (A human calling) and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh. (John 8/40) Jesus is the Messiah (John 1/41and John 4/25&26) (A human Calling)

He became in the form of a man.

Quote

Jesus lives a sinless life.(II Cor 5/21)

How is that possible if he was a man just like any other?  We are ALL born into sin.  How is it that Jesus could be “sinless” if he was just like us?

Quote

Jesus is a made just like his brothers. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)

Heb 2:14-18 explains why it was necessary for Jesus to empty himself and be made like a human.

Quote

There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)

That “man” is in a spiritual body now, at the right hand of his God, mediating for us.  (1Cor 15)

Quote

Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)

It's not that he will become flesh again, but that we have the chance to become like him and share in his Father's reward as joint heirs.

Quote

Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 ) Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18) Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)

He became in the form of a man.

What else ya got? Try them one at a time Martian. Then we can really delve into them.

mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
We sin.
He did not.
No head start.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2010,12:19)

Yes, and he says, John 6:62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!  Where do you think he was “BEFORE”?

Their minds are made up, and no scripture is powerful enough for them to change their minds IMO.

So they are officially hard of hearing. They have ears but cannot hear.

In addition, God hands people over to things when they stubbornly refuse to let go. It is a curse.

[GeneBalthrop]

To All……………If we could slow this down to a step by step progression, it might help. Mike you said Jesus (Became a Man) so by that i assume you mean Jesus was something else before He became a Man right? Then (exactly who or what was He)? Before he became a Man. Was he morphed into a Human or What?. Lets try to clearway this first before moving on. Produce (SOLID) specific scripture the Shows this brother and then we can move on from here. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

[Proclaimer]

Take note Gene.

Philippians 2:6-9
6 Who, being in very nature God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
     taking the very nature of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
     he humbled himself
     and became obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
     and gave him the name that is above every name,

Let's recap.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ July 20 2010,15:59)

Now look at this: John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Did you guys know that the Greek actually has the word “para” in that verse twice? It has been translated as “beside”, “along side” “in your presence”, etc.

But the verse actually reads,

“And now, Father, glofify me in your presence with the glory I had in your presence before the world began.”

Why two mentions of “in your presence”? Something to think about.

peace and love,
mike

[Proclaimer]

Thanks for that mike.

[JustAskin]

So much balancing and rebalancing required.

Has anyone tried to balance a thin stick standing upright from the tip of their finger.

Where is the source of the rebalancing? Is it not from the finger tip? The 'search' for the point of balance is the point of greatest movement to try to readdress the imbalance at the top tip of the stick.

The top tip represents the truth. The fingertip represents the knowledge search engine. The bottom of the stick and upwards is the pathway to the tip of truth.

Who can find that fine balance point, that knowledge that leads to the perfect balanced pathway to truth?

And when found, hold that balance. For as one moment it is found, an adversary will draw your attention away and your attention defocussed and the balance is lost again.

Is there a 'professional' level in this forum where established knowledge is built upon, not continually being 'refound', 'reinvented', 'rediscovered', '…Discovered…'?

The 'professional' stickbalancer is now focussed on the 'How Well' the stick of truth is balanced and foregoes the base skill of learning to balance.

Part of the problem is the mixture of the balanced post being overshadowed by learner balancers.

The boiling pot with a cover. The truth cannot get out and simply cycles back into the boiling pot.

[theodorej]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 11 2010,09:48)

To all, AGAIN AND AGAIN… Why do you all never learn. Worship is ONLY to God. All else is “OBEISANCE”. “Worship the Father (God) – Honor the King (Jesus)” What do you read:” When he again bring his firstborn into the world he says “All the Angel to do obesiance to him” – Where does it include MANKIND…? Martian, Your post is good but doesn't RAM home the points but leave room for others to pry your argument apart. You need to be tighter… Try to focus and be in the Spirit. have a complete vision of what you are posting – like writing a picture… check your perspectives, your gradient lines, your horizons and balance, top left, bottom right.  What is the main focus and does it draw the mind's eye. Are you over colouring – to many themes – too few? is the main point being overshadowed by a distraction element in the foreground or background. And lastly, Frame it. Intro, mid point and end footer (Conclusion).

Greetings Just Asking….I hope you don't mind my question,and please excuse the pun ,but, Iam just asking,by what authority can you make such a sweeping judgement on the entire forum with respect to our learning capacity or lack of same…

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2010,14:25)

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,20:50) Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2010,13:42) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,20:29) Hi Everyone, I personally can't understand why this issue is a concern to you? For the record I believe we all Preexisted. (Jer.1:5 / John 15:27) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj you must be joking;that insanity;Jn 15:26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. Jn 15:27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. Jn 16:1 “All this I have told you so that you will not go astray Jos 22:33 They were glad to hear the report and praised God. And they talked no more about going to war against them to devastate the country where the Reubenites and the Gadites lived. Jos 22:34 And the Reubenites and the Gadites gave the altar this name: A Witness Between Us that the LORD is God insanity is wen people don't know what is right or wrong they become crazy, Pierre Hi Terraricca, I see nothing has changed with you, when you disagree all you offer is opinion with NO Scriptural backing whatsoever, Why? Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj are you blind?? i show you the scriptures and plus,you now explain how you can come to the conclusion of;For the record I(Edj) believe we all Preexisted.? let see your scripture backing and understanding Pierre

Hi Terraricca,

Here's a couple for you…

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he
hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
These Angels were with God before the Earth was inhabited and left their habitation.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you,
feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds;
trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; (Compare to Is.61:3)
The reason they are 'twice dead' is because they rejected God both in Heaven above and now also in Earth beneath.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Arnold]

Quote (t8 @ July 20 2010,15:59)

Take note Gene. Philippians 2:6-9 6 Who, being in very nature God,      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing,      taking the very nature of a servant,      being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,      he humbled himself      and became obedient to death—         even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place      and gave him the name that is above every name, Let's recap. He existed in the form of God or with God's nature. He made himself nothing. Was made in human likeness He humbled himself Was obedient to death Was exalted by God to the highest place. Now look at this: John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. So now you can add one more bullet point: The exalted place he went to was the same glory that he had with the Father before the world began. Think about that. “Before the world began”. Hard to refute that because it is scripture. And this is the answer to your question. I am sorry that I cannot give you specifics. Scripture says that what we will become is a mystery except to say that we will be like him. So as you can see, it is a bit of a mystery and hence why you are able to dodge your way around this subject sometimes. But the above is conclusive in that he existed in the form of God and then emptied himself and came in the form of man and is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

I agree with that, and add to it that He was also the firstborn of all, creation.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.  
verse 16 FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN AND THAT ARE ON EARTH. VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, WHETHER DOMINENCE OR PRENCIPALEITIES OR POWERS.  ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM.
verse 17 AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.
I find it so ironic that most believe the next verse, but not verse 15-17.
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who IS THE BEGINNING THE FIRSTBORN OF THE DEATH.
The next sentence sumes it  up.  that in all things He may have preeminence.  I looked up preeminence it means first in all.  He was the firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death….
This to me is so clear cut, yet they just want to believe what they want to believe and ignore even Jesus own words, when He said that He came from Heaven….
John 6:38
Peace and Love Irene

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