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Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,04:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,02:46) Quote (Arnold @ July 19 2010,02:09) Again what I find so interesting that all will go along with firstborn of the death, which is verse 18, but not with verse 15.
Hi Irene,You hit the nail right on the head with that one!
Why do they accept “firstborn from the dead” literally mean he was the first one who was raised from the dead to everlasting life instead of “preeminent over the dead”?
But in 1:15, they can't take firstborn at face value as they do 1:18.
Great point!
mike
Not preeminant over the dead but preeminant over death itself.
Ahhh……but it doesn't say “firstborn of death”, does it? It said “the dead”. So your “preeminent” understanding must therefore mean “preeminent over THE DEAD”. Hmmmm……or maybe it could just mean what it says, huh?mike
57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Sure looks to me like Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham was even born.
First, you scold me for using mere men to prove my point, then you list a pageful of mere men's understandings.
Just read the scriptures, Martian. What do YOU, not your website, think Jesus was saying here? Hint, the Jews response to what he says should give you a clue.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,04:37) 57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” 58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Sure looks to me like Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham was even born.
First, you scold me for using mere men to prove my point, then you list a pageful of mere men's understandings.
Just read the scriptures, Martian. What do YOU, not your website, think Jesus was saying here? Hint, the Jews response to what he says should give you a clue.
mike
Let me ask you a question first before we start the marry-go-round again.
Do you believe that Christ ON EARTH, had extra knowledge or power that was not available to other men?
Simple yes or no answer.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,04:37) 57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” 58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Sure looks to me like Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham was even born.
First, you scold me for using mere men to prove my point, then you list a pageful of mere men's understandings.
Just read the scriptures, Martian. What do YOU, not your website, think Jesus was saying here? Hint, the Jews response to what he says should give you a clue.
mike
You pull those two verses out of context and act as if you know something?
Who was i a few posts ago that said they try to interpret scripture within it's context. Which one of those two mikes is a liar.Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,04:55) Let me ask you a question first before we start the marry-go-round again.
Do you believe that Christ ON EARTH, had extra knowledge or power that was not available to other men?
Simple yes or no answer.
Yes and No. Did he have more knowldge about God than I do? Of course. Is that to say that God CAN'T also fill me with that same exact knowledge if He chose to? NO.As far as power, NO. Jesus implied that any of us could do the things he did with faith – and even greater things.
How do my answers to these questions have anything to do with whether or not Jesus pre-existed?
Do you remember how Elijah asked God to open up Elisha's eyes so he could see the angelic army protecting them? That is an example of the power of God being placed in a human. It doesn't mean that Elijah or Elisha were any more or less “man” than us. But………..Elijah never asked God to restore him to the place he used to be in God's presence before the earth was formed, did he? Because if he did, that would clearly indicate that Elijah pre-existed also, right?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,05:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,04:37) 57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” 58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Sure looks to me like Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham was even born.
First, you scold me for using mere men to prove my point, then you list a pageful of mere men's understandings.
Just read the scriptures, Martian. What do YOU, not your website, think Jesus was saying here? Hint, the Jews response to what he says should give you a clue.
mike
You pull those two verses out of context and act as if you know something?
Who was i a few posts ago that said they try to interpret scripture within it's context. Which one of those two mikes is a liar.
This is at least the second time you've called me a liar. And I must admit that my first reaction was to follow Irene and just blow you off from now on because your idea of discussing scriptures is to make personal attacks on people who refute your beliefs. But then I thought about all the worse things I've been called by WJ and KJ on this site, and it dawned on me that the only reason you must make false accusations against my person is the same reason they do – because you can't refute the scriptures.I don't lie, but feel free to call me that or anything else you want. It says much more about you than it does about me.
Anyway, I didn't think it necessary to paste the whole chapter. I assumed you had access to a Bible and if there is something in the context that makes these two verses mean other than what they say, you would point that out by pasting the said “context”.
Is that the case? Paste away my accusatory friend.
mike
Hi MB,
The Spirit of Christ spoke through Jesus.
eg The Spirit which raised him [Rom8.11]spoke in Jn2.19This is so redicoulous it makes me not want to come on Heaven Net anymore…. You are suppose to be a Christian Martian, and you again attack. That is so uncalled for…… Even if Mike would be wrong, nobody has the right to call another a liar…… and BTW if you don't believe that Jesus came down from Heaven then you are calling Jesus a liar…… both are so wrong…..stop for pet sakes…over 800 pages….:(
IreneMike ……..Brother……….No one (EVER) DID A MIRACLE , no Moses , not Elijah , nor even Jesus, nor any Apostle either. The Only one that can do a Miracle is GOD HIMSELF, and He gives that glory to (NO) Man. All Miracles are done BY HIm Alone, He must grant them to Us and then do them. Jesus said If we had the faith as a grain of mustard seed we could say unto that tree be you plucked up and cast into the sea, and another Place it say we could say unto a mount to be moved. On the surface it seem to imply (WE) can Do these thing with enough Faith, But let me elaborate more on What Jesus meant, He was saying if we Believed (IN) GOD We (COULD) say, that is Is GOD want us to or was answering our request for it to happen. But the fact is it would have to be GOD the FATHER who would Have to do it because we sure could not. No Man have ever did one miracle himself or ever will . IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,05:55) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,05:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,04:37) 57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” 58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Sure looks to me like Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham was even born.
First, you scold me for using mere men to prove my point, then you list a pageful of mere men's understandings.
Just read the scriptures, Martian. What do YOU, not your website, think Jesus was saying here? Hint, the Jews response to what he says should give you a clue.
mike
You pull those two verses out of context and act as if you know something?
Who was i a few posts ago that said they try to interpret scripture within it's context. Which one of those two mikes is a liar.
This is at least the second time you've called me a liar. And I must admit that my first reaction was to follow Irene and just blow you off from now on because your idea of discussing scriptures is to make personal attacks on people who refute your beliefs. But then I thought about all the worse things I've been called by WJ and KJ on this site, and it dawned on me that the only reason you must make false accusations against my person is the same reason they do – because you can't refute the scriptures.I don't lie, but feel free to call me that or anything else you want. It says much more about you than it does about me.
Anyway, I didn't think it necessary to paste the whole chapter. I assumed you had access to a Bible and if there is something in the context that makes these two verses mean other than what they say, you would point that out by pasting the said “context”.
Is that the case? Paste away my accusatory friend.
mike
Yes and I call Satan a liar and the father of liars. As long as you continue to do his work then you can take part of his reward and attributes
I do not know why I get sucked into these pointless debates, especially when I end up debating with people who obviously incapable of reason or critical thinking. It is like picking someone out of a psych ward to debate with.
Instead of getting off here in frustration I am going to tell you a little story.
It starts with the knowledge of Good and Evil.
What does “good” mean? The first use of this word is in Genesis chapter one where calls his handiwork “good”. It should always be remembered that the Hebrews often relate descriptions to functionality. The word tov would best be translated with the word “functional”. When looked at his handiwork he did not see that it was “good”, he saw that it was functional, kind of like a well oiled and tuned machine. In contrast to this word is the Hebrew word “ra”. These two words, tov and ra are used for the tree of the knowledge of “good” and “evil”. While “ra” is often translated as evil it is best translated as “dysfunctional”.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_good.html
Your doctrine is Evil in the sense that it negates already established truths of scripture. Primarily the teaching of Christ as our complete unquestionable example to follow.Mike – You just refuse to see it. I do not care about your opinions of what Col 1:18 means or any other scripture. If your conclusions of all your writhing around makes Christ less of an example for us then you lose. PERIOD AND END OF STORY. You cannot violate this most important portion of Christ ministry without destroying part of God’s plan. I do not know all the answers to every scripture, but I know enough to know that you cannot violate the aspect of Christ as our example. Regardless of what you think the scripture says if you violate that absolute and clear teaching from the Word your conclusions have to be wrong. There is no other choice.
If you do not believe that Christ is our example then that puts you outside of Christianity and I might as well be talking to a Moonie.
Jesus was the first man to complete God’s plan for all of mankind. His perfection gave him the right and privilege to be the Messiah. He is the firstborn by appointment just like Isaac. God says very clearly that he is appointed to judge the Earth.
Your doctrine is dysfunctional and if you choose to cling to it then you will die part of the death your doctrine will die in the near future.
I will not engage you in serious debate any farther unless I find it entertaining or if I feel like calling you unreasonable and dysfunctional. I will continue to treat you in this manner as an unreasonable person until you honestly answer these two questions.
1.Do you believe that part of Christ’s mission on Earth was to be an example to humanity on how to walk with God?
2. Do you believe that Christ had any knowledge or power, while he walked on this Earth due to his preexistence?.
Quote (Arnold @ July 19 2010,08:38) This is so it makes me not want to come on Heaven Net anymore…. You are suppose to be a Christian Martian, and you again attack. That is so uncalled for…… Even if Mike would be wrong, nobody has the right to call another a liar…… and BTW if you don't believe that Jesus came down from Heaven then you are calling Jesus a liar…… both are so wrong…..stop for pet sakes…over 800 pages….:( Irene
You are right Irene it is rediculous. You and mike through your inability to see reason make it so. I have seen nothing from you for months except your posting of the same 5 or 6 scriptures over and over again. That is not bible study that is a broken record playing the same track again and again.
You absolutely refuse to see that your doctrine negates the major tenant in scripture of Christ as our example. You refuse to accept any proof from any scholar or expert in scripture that counters your personal opinion. You make it very clear that you believe you know more then any of them. Talk about the height of conceit!! You may have humility in other areas of your life but when it comes to bible study you are one of the most bullheaded, conceited and unreasonable people I have ever encountered.
You hand out your dogma with one hand while the other hand is behind your back holding the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You partake of this dysfunctional doctrine and it makes you dysfunctional.You want me to stop? I would be happy to stop as soon as you stop working against the plan of God as shown through the example of Christ to humanity.
Until then I see your doctrine as against God and you as the seller of such drivel doing the devils work.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,08:49) Mike ……..Brother……….No one (EVER) DID A MIRACLE , no Moses , not Elijah , nor even Jesus, nor any Apostle either. The Only one that can do a Miracle is GOD HIMSELF, and He gives that glory to (NO) Man. All Miracles are done BY HIm Alone, He must grant them to Us and then do them. Jesus said If we had the faith as a grain of mustard seed we could say unto that tree be you plucked up and cast into the sea, and another Place it say we could say unto a mount to be moved. On the surface it seem to imply (WE) can Do these thing with enough Faith, But let me elaborate more on What Jesus meant, He was saying if we Believed (IN) GOD We (COULD) say, that is Is GOD want us to or was answering our request for it to happen. But the fact is it would have to be GOD the FATHER who would Have to do it because we sure could not. No Man have ever did one miracle himself or ever will . IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Hi Gene,This is what I said to Martian when asked if Jesus had more power than us:
Quote As far as power, NO. Jesus implied that any of us could do the things he did with faith – and even greater things. So you are “teaching” me things I've just stated.
I agree that anything antbody does is only by power on loan from God.mike
Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:02) Yes and I call Satan a liar and the father of liars. As long as you continue to do his work then you can take part of his reward and attributes
Oh boy! Now I'm compared to Satan himself!
Instead of your enormous posts, questions which can only be answered by my opinions, and insults, why not just take a scripture at a time. Let's start with Phil 2,
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!5: Explains that it is the man Jesus Christ being talked about.
6: Says this Jesus Christ was once in the form of God.
7: Says he THEN came in the form of a human.
8: Says he THEN became obedient to death.
How do you explain the pre-existence of Jesus away from these scriptures Martian?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:18) You hand out your dogma with one hand while the other hand is behind your back holding the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you hear that Irene? Boy, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. The only “dogma” she is handing out is plain, clear scripture. And the unfortunate reason she must keep repeating it is because some of you knuckleheads keep ignoring and avoiding them in favor of repeating your “wish” for Jesus to have been exactly the same as you so you can somehow feel empowered by that.
God's word is NOT based on how you “wish” things would be guys. It is what it is. And if the scriptures say Jesus pre-existed, then too bad, so sad for you and your “wishes”. Deal with the scriptures guys. I've pasted Phil 2:5-8 for your perusal.
Gene, Martian, Nick……how do you make those verses NOT be about a pre-existent Jesus?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,11:46) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:02) Yes and I call Satan a liar and the father of liars. As long as you continue to do his work then you can take part of his reward and attributes
Oh boy! Now I'm compared to Satan himself! Instead of your enormous posts, questions which can only be answered by my opinions, and insults, why not just take a scripture at a time. Let's start with Phil 2,
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!5: Explains that it is the man Jesus Christ being talked about.
6: Says this Jesus Christ was once in the form of God.
7: Says he THEN came in the form of a human.
8: Says he THEN became obedient to death.
How do you explain the pre-existence of Jesus away from these scriptures Martian?
mike
Nope not necessary to go scripture by scripture with you. As long as your end conclusion/interpretation negates Christ as our example there is no choice but it being wrong. I do not care to hear your opinions anymore.
I have posted at least ten times concerning Phil and it has done no good. You would not believe it and you still refuse to answer my questions.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,11:53) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:18) You hand out your dogma with one hand while the other hand is behind your back holding the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you hear that Irene? Boy, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. The only “dogma” she is handing out is plain, clear scripture. And the unfortunate reason she must keep repeating it is because some of you knuckleheads keep ignoring and avoiding them in favor of repeating your “wish” for Jesus to have been exactly the same as you so you can somehow feel empowered by that.
God's word is NOT based on how you “wish” things would be guys. It is what it is. And if the scriptures say Jesus pre-existed, then too bad, so sad for you and your “wishes”. Deal with the scriptures guys. I've pasted Phil 2:5-8 for your perusal.
Gene, Martian, Nick……how do you make those verses NOT be about a pre-existent Jesus?
mike
Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth?
And you are right the understanding that Christ is my example does empower me to follow him. It empowers me by building hope because I have seen another human just like me actually do it perfectly.— Funny I thought that was what walking with God was all about. It seems you have a different agenda.Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,11:46) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:02) Yes and I call Satan a liar and the father of liars. As long as you continue to do his work then you can take part of his reward and attributes
Oh boy! Now I'm compared to Satan himself! Instead of your enormous posts, questions which can only be answered by my opinions, and insults, why not just take a scripture at a time. Let's start with Phil 2,
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!5: Explains that it is the man Jesus Christ being talked about.
6: Says this Jesus Christ was once in the form of God.
7: Says he THEN came in the form of a human.
8: Says he THEN became obedient to death.
How do you explain the pre-existence of Jesus away from these scriptures Martian?
mike
Nope not necessary to go scripture by scripture with you. As long as your end conclusion/interpretation negates Christ as our example there is no choice but it being wrong. I do not care to hear your opinions anymore.
I have posted at least ten times concerning Phil and it has done no good. You would not believe it and you still refuse to answer my questions.
Really Martian?You've got plenty of time to make false accusations and post your blustering gibberish, but you won't even explain ONE LITTLE SCRIPTURE away?
I figured as much anyway. That's why I challenge WJ and KJ to debates……no where for them to run and hide. Well, at least that's what I thought. Jack totally quit our first debate because the questions got to tough for him. But you go ahead and hide behind your insults and your “I've already explained it before” crap.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,11:53) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:18) You hand out your dogma with one hand while the other hand is behind your back holding the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you hear that Irene? Boy, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. The only “dogma” she is handing out is plain, clear scripture. And the unfortunate reason she must keep repeating it is because some of you knuckleheads keep ignoring and avoiding them in favor of repeating your “wish” for Jesus to have been exactly the same as you so you can somehow feel empowered by that.
God's word is NOT based on how you “wish” things would be guys. It is what it is. And if the scriptures say Jesus pre-existed, then too bad, so sad for you and your “wishes”. Deal with the scriptures guys. I've pasted Phil 2:5-8 for your perusal.
Gene, Martian, Nick……how do you make those verses NOT be about a pre-existent Jesus?
mike
No she is handing out the opinion of an English translator mixed with her opinion that is based on a preconceived idea of preexistence.
You talk about using context but you ignore the context of the entire bible that shows very clearly that the firstborn position is not always pedicated on chronological order. Isaac and David who are both types of christ were called firstborn though neither were first chronologically.I have never ignored the scriptures she has posted. in fact I have posted many responses to them. My posts were ignored. Just like you are ignoring my questions. I am not seeking opinion. You give that freely enough. I am asking you from your vast knowledge of scripture to answer these two simple yes or no questions and if you like to back up your answers from scripture and I will do the same when you are done. I am asking you to form a conclusion based on scripture.
1. Do you believe that part of Christ’s mission on Earth was to be an example to humanity on how to walk with God?
2. Do you believe that Christ had any knowledge or power, (not available to normal mankind) while he walked on this Earth due to his preexistence?Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:01) Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth?
Christ as our example is a scriptural truth. Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:16) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,11:46) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:02) Yes and I call Satan a liar and the father of liars. As long as you continue to do his work then you can take part of his reward and attributes
Oh boy! Now I'm compared to Satan himself! Instead of your enormous posts, questions which can only be answered by my opinions, and insults, why not just take a scripture at a time. Let's start with Phil 2,
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!5: Explains that it is the man Jesus Christ being talked about.
6: Says this Jesus Christ was once in the form of God.
7: Says he THEN came in the form of a human.
8: Says he THEN became obedient to death.
How do you explain the pre-existence of Jesus away from these scriptures Martian?
mike
Nope not necessary to go scripture by scripture with you. As long as your end conclusion/interpretation negates Christ as our example there is no choice but it being wrong. I do not care to hear your opinions anymore.
I have posted at least ten times concerning Phil and it has done no good. You would not believe it and you still refuse to answer my questions.
Really Martian?You've got plenty of time to make false accusations and post your blustering gibberish, but you won't even explain ONE LITTLE SCRIPTURE away?
I figured as much anyway. That's why I challenge WJ and KJ to debates……no where for them to run and hide. Well, at least that's what I thought. Jack totally quit our first debate because the questions got to tough for him. But you go ahead and hide behind your insults and your “I've already explained it before” crap.
mike
And who is hiding from my questions? It's Mikey in all his avoidance glory!!!!!!
1. Do you believe that part of Christ’s mission on Earth was to be an example to humanity on how to walk with God?
2. Do you believe that Christ had any knowledge or power, (not available to normal mankind) while he walked on this Earth due to his preexistence?Come on Mikey. It's good for you.
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