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Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31) Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.
Martian! As a Baby I was sprinkled into the Catholic Church. When my Mother married again, my Stepfather and Mother never attended Church, so i did not either. When I married Georg He was a strong Catholic and we then went on a regular basis. In 1984 He was watching Mr. Armstrong and to make a long story short, God called us out of the Catholic Church. There we both were Baptized according to Scripture. The first day after our Baptism was an amazing day….. God's Holy Spirit told me over and over again what I was doing wrong. Since then the W.W.Church of God has gone back to believing in the trinity etc. We stopped going and have been staying Home since then. God has opened our minds to so many truths since that day in 1994…… The preexisting is one of them. Georg used to let the J.W.into our Home and one of them told my Husband about John 1:1. At first we said Oh, no way…. But God did not leave us in that way….. Maybe you too will see it one day…. We have several Bibles and a Strong's Concordance that is helpful….
We don't believe in a trinity, even though some will put those two doctrines together. But one does not have to do with the other…. What also has helped when we were in the W.W.Church of God we kept all of God's Holy Days, listed in Lev. 23 We used love to go on the Feast of Tabernacle. In spite of what some think of Mr. Armstrong, He was a good man and the organization taught us how to study the Bible. In the Catholic Church we never did….. We had a Catholic Bible and I did once read in it, but could not understand it. Without God's Holy Spirit there is no way….. I also learned that I cannot call anyone. God does the calling out….. I tried with our Son…..
Peace and Love to you, IreneQuote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31) Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.
Martian! As a Baby I was sprinkled into the Catholic Church. When my Mother married again, my Stepfather and Mother never attended Church, so i did not either. When I married Georg He was a strong Catholic and we then went on a regular basis. In 1984 He was watching Mr. Armstrong and to make a long story short, God called us out of the Catholic Church. There we both were Baptized according to Scripture. The first day after our Baptism was an amazing day….. God's Holy Spirit told me over and over again what I was doing wrong. Since then the W.W.Church of God has gone back to believing in the trinity etc. We stopped going and have been staying Home since then. God has opened our minds to so many truths since that day in 1994…… The preexisting is one of them. Georg used to let the J.W.into our Home and one of them told my Husband about John 1:1. At first we said Oh, no way…. But God did not leave us in that way….. Maybe you too will see it one day…. We have several Bibles and a Strong's Concordance that is helpful….
We don't believe in a trinity, even though some will put those two doctrines together. But one does not have to do with the other…. What also has helped when we were in the W.W.Church of God we kept all of God's Holy Days, listed in Lev. 23 We used love to go on the Feast of Tabernacle. In spite of what some think of Mr. Armstrong, He was a good man and the organization taught us how to study the Bible. In the Catholic Church we never did….. We had a Catholic Bible and I did once read in it, but could not understand it. Without God's Holy Spirit there is no way….. I also learned that I cannot call anyone. God does the calling out….. I tried with our Son…..
Peace and Love to you, Irene
that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were rebaptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?Quote (martian @ July 15 2010,20:46) I want teaching that will inspire me and not just bring up more questions. It is Satan that questions. I want teaching that will give me hope that I can actually become like Christ and not teaching that makes that seem less likely.
IMO We need a Christ that shows by example how a man should become like God in character and maturity. We need a Christ that shows by example what is possible for a man to become.
To this end do I reject teaching that makes Christ some sort of super human or simi-God. If he is that then I can never be sure what of his wonderful accomplishments I (as a normal human) can do.
I reject teachings that Give Christ any advantage either in knowledge or power over what is available to any other human.
If he is actually like us then I can become like Him.
Hi Martian,While I understand and sympathize with your “want” to have Christ be who you want him to be, is that really scriptural? We've got Tim Kraft saying there's no need to study the OT because it paints a picture of an angry God, and that is not the God he “wants”. Is it wise to ignore, avoid or rearrange cetain scriptures because they don't speak of the God or Jesus that WE “want”?
It is what it is, Martian. What do you think the parable of the tenants was talking about? The renters killed all the servants, so finally the owner said, “I'll send my own son, they'll respect him!”
Think about it. How many prophets were killed between the time Jesus was born of Mary and the time he was baptized? This parable outlines hundreds of years. They killed many of God's prophets, so hundreds of years before Jesus was born in the flesh, God made the decision to send His own Son. “Surely they will listen to him!” But He already knew the outcome before He even sent his Son. But the point is that His mission was accomplished. Because these tenants killed His own Son, he got rid of them and has rented His vineyard to a group of other tenants, of which we are a part.
The point is that the landowner didn't say he would go beget a son, and when that son grew up, he'd send him. He said he would SEND his “already grown” son.
Food for thought, I hope.
mike
Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,07:36) Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31) Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.
Martian! As a Baby I was sprinkled into the Catholic Church. When my Mother married again, my Stepfather and Mother never attended Church, so i did not either. When I married Georg He was a strong Catholic and we then went on a regular basis. In 1984 He was watching Mr. Armstrong and to make a long story short, God called us out of the Catholic Church. There we both were Baptized according to Scripture. The first day after our Baptism was an amazing day….. God's Holy Spirit told me over and over again what I was doing wrong. Since then the W.W.Church of God has gone back to believing in the trinity etc. We stopped going and have been staying Home since then. God has opened our minds to so many truths since that day in 1994…… The preexisting is one of them. Georg used to let the J.W.into our Home and one of them told my Husband about John 1:1. At first we said Oh, no way…. But God did not leave us in that way….. Maybe you too will see it one day…. We have several Bibles and a Strong's Concordance that is helpful….
We don't believe in a trinity, even though some will put those two doctrines together. But one does not have to do with the other…. What also has helped when we were in the W.W.Church of God we kept all of God's Holy Days, listed in Lev. 23 We used love to go on the Feast of Tabernacle. In spite of what some think of Mr. Armstrong, He was a good man and the organization taught us how to study the Bible. In the Catholic Church we never did….. We had a Catholic Bible and I did once read in it, but could not understand it. Without God's Holy Spirit there is no way….. I also learned that I cannot call anyone. God does the calling out….. I tried with our Son…..
Peace and Love to you, Irene
that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were rebaptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?
Martian! It is because Scriptures tell us so. Seing first had how it affected me, I am forever thankful to the Church that they encouraged us to do so….. The Catholic way is not according to Scriptures…. IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,11:02) Quote (martian @ July 15 2010,20:46) I want teaching that will inspire me and not just bring up more questions. It is Satan that questions. I want teaching that will give me hope that I can actually become like Christ and not teaching that makes that seem less likely.
IMO We need a Christ that shows by example how a man should become like God in character and maturity. We need a Christ that shows by example what is possible for a man to become.
To this end do I reject teaching that makes Christ some sort of super human or simi-God. If he is that then I can never be sure what of his wonderful accomplishments I (as a normal human) can do.
I reject teachings that Give Christ any advantage either in knowledge or power over what is available to any other human.
If he is actually like us then I can become like Him.
Hi Martian,While I understand and sympathize with your “want” to have Christ be who you want him to be, is that really scriptural? We've got Tim Kraft saying there's no need to study the OT because it paints a picture of an angry God, and that is not the God he “wants”. Is it wise to ignore, avoid or rearrange cetain scriptures because they don't speak of the God or Jesus that WE “want”?
It is what it is, Martian. What do you think the parable of the tenants was talking about? The renters killed all the servants, so finally the owner said, “I'll send my own son, they'll respect him!”
Think about it. How many prophets were killed between the time Jesus was born of Mary and the time he was baptized? This parable outlines hundreds of years. They killed many of God's prophets, so hundreds of years before Jesus was born in the flesh, God made the decision to send His own Son. “Surely they will listen to him!” But He already knew the outcome before He even sent his Son. But the point is that His mission was accomplished. Because these tenants killed His own Son, he got rid of them and has rented His vineyard to a group of other tenants, of which we are a part.
The point is that the landowner didn't say he would go beget a son, and when that son grew up, he'd send him. He said he would SEND his “already grown” son.
Food for thought, I hope.
mike
You are changing the scriptures yourself. There is not one scripture that says he sent his already grown son.Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,11:15) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,07:36) Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31) Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.
Martian! As a Baby I was sprinkled into the Catholic Church. When my Mother married again, my Stepfather and Mother never attended Church, so i did not either. When I married Georg He was a strong Catholic and we then went on a regular basis. In 1984 He was watching Mr. Armstrong and to make a long story short, God called us out of the Catholic Church. There we both were Baptized according to Scripture. The first day after our Baptism was an amazing day….. God's Holy Spirit told me over and over again what I was doing wrong. Since then the W.W.Church of God has gone back to believing in the trinity etc. We stopped going and have been staying Home since then. God has opened our minds to so many truths since that day in 1994…… The preexisting is one of them. Georg used to let the J.W.into our Home and one of them told my Husband about John 1:1. At first we said Oh, no way…. But God did not leave us in that way….. Maybe you too will see it one day…. We have several Bibles and a Strong's Concordance that is helpful….
We don't believe in a trinity, even though some will put those two doctrines together. But one does not have to do with the other…. What also has helped when we were in the W.W.Church of God we kept all of God's Holy Days, listed in Lev. 23 We used love to go on the Feast of Tabernacle. In spite of what some think of Mr. Armstrong, He was a good man and the organization taught us how to study the Bible. In the Catholic Church we never did….. We had a Catholic Bible and I did once read in it, but could not understand it. Without God's Holy Spirit there is no way….. I also learned that I cannot call anyone. God does the calling out….. I tried with our Son…..
Peace and Love to you, Irene
that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were rebaptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?
Martian! It is because Scriptures tell us so. Seing first had how it affected me, I am forever thankful to the Church that they encouraged us to do so….. The Catholic way is not according to Scriptures…. Irene
How do you know the scripture says to immerse? that word is not in scripture. Dod you are your pastor study the Greek word in the original language?Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,11:15) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,07:36) Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31) Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.
Martian! As a Baby I was sprinkled into the Catholic Church. When my Mother married again, my Stepfather and Mother never attended Church, so i did not either. When I married Georg He was a strong Catholic and we then went on a regular basis. In 1984 He was watching Mr. Armstrong and to make a long story short, God called us out of the Catholic Church. There we both were Baptized according to Scripture. The first day after our Baptism was an amazing day….. God's Holy Spirit told me over and over again what I was doing wrong. Since then the W.W.Church of God has gone back to believing in the trinity etc. We stopped going and have been staying Home since then. God has opened our minds to so many truths since that day in 1994…… The preexisting is one of them. Georg used to let the J.W.into our Home and one of them told my Husband about John 1:1. At first we said Oh, no way…. But God did not leave us in that way….. Maybe you too will see it one day…. We have several Bibles and a Strong's Concordance that is helpful….
We don't believe in a trinity, even though some will put those two doctrines together. But one does not have to do with the other…. What also has helped when we were in the W.W.Church of God we kept all of God's Holy Days, listed in Lev. 23 We used love to go on the Feast of Tabernacle. In spite of what some think of Mr. Armstrong, He was a good man and the organization taught us how to study the Bible. In the Catholic Church we never did….. We had a Catholic Bible and I did once read in it, but could not understand it. Without God's Holy Spirit there is no way….. I also learned that I cannot call anyone. God does the calling out….. I tried with our Son…..
Peace and Love to you, Irene
that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were rebaptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?
Martian! It is because Scriptures tell us so. Seing first had how it affected me, I am forever thankful to the Church that they encouraged us to do so….. The Catholic way is not according to Scriptures…. Irene
Just so you know, I agree with you that immersion is the proper way. I also know how I came to that understanding. I am curious how you came to that conclusion. What or how did you see immersion in the scriptures.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2010,00:20) T8………..I know what you are trying to say, the problem is you have no idea in what manor Jesus was stating before Abraham i am because you have no (PROOF)…
Well, I know how you interpret it without the intended idea, but let's look at how the context understands it.John 8:56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
As you can clearly see, the Jews addressed Jesus age and said that he couldn't have seen Abraham, and Jesus simply replied, “before Abraham was born, I am”. And when you look up the meaning of “I am” you can see that he was saying that he existed.
I have Jesus word and you have your own opinion. I believe it because Jesus said it himself, and I and many others are hardly going to take your word over Jesus word are we?
Gene, John 6:29 says, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent”.
This was spoken by Jesus.Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”.
You say, “Before Abraham, he was not”.You are going against the work of God are you not? And why? What is the benefit in preaching vehemently against a truth that Jesus taught?
Quote (martian @ July 15 2010,20:46) To any that think I have insulted them personally. I offer my apologies. I know that often times all of us are so convinced that we are right, that we take it as a personal attack to have our beliefs called silly. I know I often belittle doctrine but it is not my intention to belittle people. However it is the nature of these forums to attract strong willed people and when those types of people (when having opposite views) are placed in a naturally antagonistic venue the worst can come out. My entire premis in all of the debates is not to argue doctrine or Scripture interpretation. No ne has established a set of rules we will all agree on to interpret scripture.
One person can feel quite comfortable taking a scripture out of context while another sees that as absolutely improper.
For this reason I ask simple questions like How does your interpretation help me to be like Christ. I believe that doctrine should have a function beyond mere intellectual knowledge. It should have experiencial consequinces.
For Example – A person can have all the head knowledge in the world about healing but until they have God's hand raise them out of the wheel chair they do not really get it.
For me personally it is a matter of wanting teaching that actually moves me forward to becoming like Christ. After all is that not what we are placed on this Earth to accomplish? I want teaching that will inspire me and not just bring up more questions. It is Satan that questions. I want teaching that will give me hope that I can actually become like Christ and not teaching that makes that seem less likely.
IMO We need a Christ that shows by example how a man should become like God in character and maturity. We need a Christ that shows by example what is possible for a man to become.
To this end do I reject teaching that makes Christ some sort of super human or simi-God. If he is that then I can never be sure what of his wonderful accomplishments I (as a normal human) can do.
I reject teachings that Give Christ any advantage either in knowledge or power over what is available to any other human.
If he is actually like us then I can become like Him.
Martian,Your concerns and goals are very admirable and very achievable. The place to start is not in the Old Testament or even in the gospels, although, it is necessary for us to learn from them. Romans 15:4. Romans thru Thessalonians is where the lifestyle of believer in the accomplished works of Christ is described. Let me break this down a little. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God and was given a throne there because he accomplished what he was given to do. The gospels describe the process of Jesus Christ doing his job. The gospels however do not describe the final result though. Romans through Thessalonians does.
For instance, in Romans 5:1, we are told that we have been justified and have peace with God. Since we were justified, who is it that has the right to condemn us? Romans 8:1 says, there is therefore now no more condemnation. Did Jesus Christ have peace with God? Of course he did. So do you and I.
Now that we are justified, and have peace with God. We can forget the past and reach forward. Philippians 3:13-14.. It is in the Epistles that we are more than conquerors, Romans 8:37. Was Jesus Christ a more than a conqueror? Absolutely, there was no situation that he faced or endured that he did not come out “smelling like a rose” We are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Was there any thing that could separate Jesus Christ from the love of God? No. Nothing can separate us from the love of God either.
We are to let this mind be in us that was also in Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:5, See Romans 12 for a small sampling of what we are capable of .
Did Jesus Christ abhor evil and cleave to the good? Of course, we can too. Romans 12:9.
Was JC kindly affectioned to his followers and those who sought him? Yes. We can be kindly affectioned to our spiritual brethren.
It is in Romans through Thessalonians that our God given right to what you want is described.
Have a great day!
Quote (barley @ July 16 2010,14:06) Quote (martian @ July 15 2010,20:46) To any that think I have insulted them personally. I offer my apologies. I know that often times all of us are so convinced that we are right, that we take it as a personal attack to have our beliefs called silly. I know I often belittle doctrine but it is not my intention to belittle people. However it is the nature of these forums to attract strong willed people and when those types of people (when having opposite views) are placed in a naturally antagonistic venue the worst can come out. My entire premis in all of the debates is not to argue doctrine or Scripture interpretation. No ne has established a set of rules we will all agree on to interpret scripture.
One person can feel quite comfortable taking a scripture out of context while another sees that as absolutely improper.
For this reason I ask simple questions like How does your interpretation help me to be like Christ. I believe that doctrine should have a function beyond mere intellectual knowledge. It should have experiencial consequinces.
For Example – A person can have all the head knowledge in the world about healing but until they have God's hand raise them out of the wheel chair they do not really get it.
For me personally it is a matter of wanting teaching that actually moves me forward to becoming like Christ. After all is that not what we are placed on this Earth to accomplish? I want teaching that will inspire me and not just bring up more questions. It is Satan that questions. I want teaching that will give me hope that I can actually become like Christ and not teaching that makes that seem less likely.
IMO We need a Christ that shows by example how a man should become like God in character and maturity. We need a Christ that shows by example what is possible for a man to become.
To this end do I reject teaching that makes Christ some sort of super human or simi-God. If he is that then I can never be sure what of his wonderful accomplishments I (as a normal human) can do.
I reject teachings that Give Christ any advantage either in knowledge or power over what is available to any other human.
If he is actually like us then I can become like Him.
Martian,Your concerns and goals are very admirable and very achievable. The place to start is not in the Old Testament or even in the gospels, although, it is necessary for us to learn from them. Romans 15:4. Romans thru Thessalonians is where the lifestyle of believer in the accomplished works of Christ is described. Let me break this down a little. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God and was given a throne there because he accomplished what he was given to do. The gospels describe the process of Jesus Christ doing his job. The gospels however do not describe the final result though. Romans through Thessalonians does.
For instance, in Romans 5:1, we are told that we have been justified and have peace with God. Since we were justified, who is it that has the right to condemn us? Romans 8:1 says, there is therefore now no more condemnation. Did Jesus Christ have peace with God? Of course he did. So do you and I.
Now that we are justified, and have peace with God. We can forget the past and reach forward. Philippians 3:13-14.. It is in the Epistles that we are more than conquerors, Romans 8:37. Was Jesus Christ a more than a conqueror? Absolutely, there was no situation that he faced or endured that he did not come out “smelling like a rose” We are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Was there any thing that could separate Jesus Christ from the love of God? No. Nothing can separate us from the love of God either.
We are to let this mind be in us that was also in Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:5, See Romans 12 for a small sampling of what we are capable of .
Did Jesus Christ abhor evil and cleave to the good? Of course, we can too. Romans 12:9.
Was JC kindly affectioned to his followers and those who sought him? Yes. We can be kindly affectioned to our spiritual brethren.
It is in Romans through Thessalonians that our God given right to what you want is described.
Have a great day!
Thanks, although I think you are preaching to the choir.
My post was not to say I do not know these things. My posts was to show that without them or with doctrines that hinder them it is much more difficult to achieve the goals set for us by God.Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:50) You are changing the scriptures yourself. There is not one scripture that says he sent his already grown son.
Hi Martian,The point is that the landowner in the parable was not said to have begotten a son and THEN sent him. It just says he sent his son. We can assume the son was grown in the parable or the landowner would have been foolish to send a child or infant, right?
And we know this parable is a parallel to God and His Son, right?
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2010,15:44) Hi MB,
But God also sent His Prophets and none here say they preexisted.
Hi Nick,Oh, I'm sure you could find somebody on HN who thinks that.
How can you guys ignore the very plain scriptures that have Jesus saying he will return to where he was, that he has been restored to his former (or higher) postition again, that he was in the form of God THEN came in the form of man, etc?
Not even to mention that scripture tells us he was “firstborn of all creation” “before all the ages” and the “only begotten Son of God” who came “from heaven”.
How could all of creation be made through someone who didn't even exist yet?
I just don't get it. Why?
It's late, talk to ya later.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,15:40) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:50) You are changing the scriptures yourself. There is not one scripture that says he sent his already grown son.
Hi Martian,The point is that the landowner in the parable was not said to have begotten a son and THEN sent him. It just says he sent his son. We can assume the son was grown in the parable or the landowner would have been foolish to send a child or infant, right?
And we know this parable is a parallel to God and His Son, right?
mike
So your doctrine is based on assumptions?
Just exactly how did Mary have a full grown son come out of her womb?
Are thee not scriptures that state a “child” is born? what about the ones that say Christ was 12 years old. I that full grown?
If he was full grown why did he have to grow in stature before man and God?
This doctrine is so silly it should be clasisfied with Christ being the preexistent Elvis and planted by the Green men from mars.Come on man – You are not even being rational.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,15:40) Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:50) You are changing the scriptures yourself. There is not one scripture that says he sent his already grown son.
Hi Martian,The point is that the landowner in the parable was not said to have begotten a son and THEN sent him. It just says he sent his son. We can assume the son was grown in the parable or the landowner would have been foolish to send a child or infant, right?
And we know this parable is a parallel to God and His Son, right?
mike
Was an infant sent to the Jews? No a full grown man was sent. He grew up on Earth and was perfected by what he suffered. There was no instant mature son. God sent a son that was then perfected to be ready to confront the Jews.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,15:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2010,15:44) Hi MB,
But God also sent His Prophets and none here say they preexisted.
Hi Nick,Oh, I'm sure you could find somebody on HN who thinks that.
How can you guys ignore the very plain scriptures that have Jesus saying he will return to where he was, that he has been restored to his former (or higher) postition again, that he was in the form of God THEN came in the form of man, etc?
Not even to mention that scripture tells us he was “firstborn of all creation” “before all the ages” and the “only begotten Son of God” who came “from heaven”.
How could all of creation be made through someone who didn't even exist yet?
I just don't get it. Why?
It's late, talk to ya later.
peace and love,
mike
The most damaging aspect of your understanding is that you do not consider the culture in which scripture was written. The great Eastern culture of the Hebrews is extinct today and has been since approx 200AD. It was surpassed by the Greek culture and way of thinking.
The Hebrew concepts were carried in the language of both OT and NT. The Hebrews had no term that meant to make from nothing. That is a Greek concept. The Hebrew word for create is “Bara” and it literally means to fatten or fill up. To bring to completion as you would fatten a calf to be ready for slaughter. All creation was completed by Christ. All creation was brought to fruition by Christ. Without Christ nothing would have been completed. The creation would not have been fattened or filled.
This verse is talking about Christ being the hinge pin that holds the purpose of Creation together.
Another point of Hebrew cultue is that the Hebrews thought in terms of function and not apearance. You say creation to a hebrew and he will not think of the physical universe of planets and stars. He will invision the realm in which we are tested and perfected into sons of God. From this perspective Christ completed the actions that gave creation it's completed purpose. Without his accomplishments creations loses it's purpose.Quote (martian @ July 17 2010,01:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,15:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2010,15:44) Hi MB,
But God also sent His Prophets and none here say they preexisted.
Hi Nick,Oh, I'm sure you could find somebody on HN who thinks that.
How can you guys ignore the very plain scriptures that have Jesus saying he will return to where he was, that he has been restored to his former (or higher) postition again, that he was in the form of God THEN came in the form of man, etc?
Not even to mention that scripture tells us he was “firstborn of all creation” “before all the ages” and the “only begotten Son of God” who came “from heaven”.
How could all of creation be made through someone who didn't even exist yet?
I just don't get it. Why?
It's late, talk to ya later.
peace and love,
mike
The most damaging aspect of your understanding is that you do not consider the culture in which scripture was written. The great Eastern culture of the Hebrews is extinct today and has been since approx 200AD. It was surpassed by the Greek culture and way of thinking.
The Hebrew concepts were carried in the language of both OT and NT. The Hebrews had no term that meant to make from nothing. That is a Greek concept. The Hebrew word for create is “Bara” and it literally means to fatten or fill up. To bring to completion as you would fatten a calf to be ready for slaughter. All creation was completed by Christ. All creation was brought to fruition by Christ. Without Christ nothing would have been completed. The creation would not have been fattened or filled.
This verse is talking about Christ being the hinge pin that holds the purpose of Creation together.
Another point of Hebrew cultue is that the Hebrews thought in terms of function and not apearance. You say creation to a hebrew and he will not think of the physical universe of planets and stars. He will invision the realm in which we are tested and perfected into sons of God. From this perspective Christ completed the actions that gave creation it's completed purpose. Without his accomplishments creations loses it's purpose.
martian……….right on brother.peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (barley @ July 16 2010,14:06) Quote (martian @ July 15 2010,20:46) To any that think I have insulted them personally. I offer my apologies. I know that often times all of us are so convinced that we are right, that we take it as a personal attack to have our beliefs called silly. I know I often belittle doctrine but it is not my intention to belittle people. However it is the nature of these forums to attract strong willed people and when those types of people (when having opposite views) are placed in a naturally antagonistic venue the worst can come out. My entire premis in all of the debates is not to argue doctrine or Scripture interpretation. No ne has established a set of rules we will all agree on to interpret scripture.
One person can feel quite comfortable taking a scripture out of context while another sees that as absolutely improper.
For this reason I ask simple questions like How does your interpretation help me to be like Christ. I believe that doctrine should have a function beyond mere intellectual knowledge. It should have experiencial consequinces.
For Example – A person can have all the head knowledge in the world about healing but until they have God's hand raise them out of the wheel chair they do not really get it.
For me personally it is a matter of wanting teaching that actually moves me forward to becoming like Christ. After all is that not what we are placed on this Earth to accomplish? I want teaching that will inspire me and not just bring up more questions. It is Satan that questions. I want teaching that will give me hope that I can actually become like Christ and not teaching that makes that seem less likely.
IMO We need a Christ that shows by example how a man should become like God in character and maturity. We need a Christ that shows by example what is possible for a man to become.
To this end do I reject teaching that makes Christ some sort of super human or simi-God. If he is that then I can never be sure what of his wonderful accomplishments I (as a normal human) can do.
I reject teachings that Give Christ any advantage either in knowledge or power over what is available to any other human.
If he is actually like us then I can become like Him.
Martian,Your concerns and goals are very admirable and very achievable. The place to start is not in the Old Testament or even in the gospels, although, it is necessary for us to learn from them. Romans 15:4. Romans thru Thessalonians is where the lifestyle of believer in the accomplished works of Christ is described. Let me break this down a little. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God and was given a throne there because he accomplished what he was given to do. The gospels describe the process of Jesus Christ doing his job. The gospels however do not describe the final result though. Romans through Thessalonians does.
For instance, in Romans 5:1, we are told that we have been justified and have peace with God. Since we were justified, who is it that has the right to condemn us? Romans 8:1 says, there is therefore now no more condemnation. Did Jesus Christ have peace with God? Of course he did. So do you and I.
Now that we are justified, and have peace with God. We can forget the past and reach forward. Philippians 3:13-14.. It is in the Epistles that we are more than conquerors, Romans 8:37. Was Jesus Christ a more than a conqueror? Absolutely, there was no situation that he faced or endured that he did not come out “smelling like a rose” We are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Was there any thing that could separate Jesus Christ from the love of God? No. Nothing can separate us from the love of God either.
We are to let this mind be in us that was also in Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:5, See Romans 12 for a small sampling of what we are capable of .
Did Jesus Christ abhor evil and cleave to the good? Of course, we can too. Romans 12:9.
Was JC kindly affectioned to his followers and those who sought him? Yes. We can be kindly affectioned to our spiritual brethren.
It is in Romans through Thessalonians that our God given right to what you want is described.
Have a great day!
barely………….good post brother, you and martian are both seeing it right IMO.peace and love to you and yours………………gene
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