- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Hi MB,
Man is body soul and spirit and Jesus was a normal man.
His soul is with God clothed with a new body and enlivened by God's Spirit.Hi Irene:
You say:
Quote Marty! I will just take the first subject you disagree with me with. You say that Jesius came first into the world, and was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Yes, that is true when He became a man. To do so He said that He emptied Himself in Phil. 2:5 We agree that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and was born a man child, but you go on to say “to do so he emptied himself in Phil 2:5”, and to that statement I say absolutely not. That does not make any sense at all. We know that the Holy Ghost overshadowed the virgin Mary and she conceived. Isn't that what the scriptures state?
The Apostle Paul in Philippians 2 is teaching the church about humility. Jesus was “in the form of God” as God's Son and His Christ, but he did not let that position go to his head, but he humbled himself as any ordinary man, and became obedient unto death on the cross.
This is what Philippians 2 states:
Quote Philippians 2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:(This is what the Apostle Paul was trying to convey by these scriptures, humility, not preexistence)
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
And then you want to know about John 1 and the following verses:
Quote John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
1 John 1 states:
Quote 1 John 1 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 1 states:
Quote Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
And so, what I conclude from these scriptures is that God's plan for eternal life was with God in the beginning and that this plan would be fulfilled in and through the person of his Son Jesus. God foreknew all things. He knew that a particular point in time he would conceive a Son through whom he would save His children, and so, he was foreordained.
This is what 1 Peter states:
Quote 1 Peter 1:17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And so,
John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [/QUOTE]And so, beginning with Genesis: The Word of God prophetically and symbolically speak about Jesus. In Genesis 3 we have:
Quote 14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
This speaks prophetically of Jesus as “her seed”, that is the seed of the woman.
In Exodus, we have the passover lamb which speaks symbolically of the “lamb of God”.
There are many more scriptures which refer to the coming of Jesus, but I just want to give these as an example to let you see my understanding of this.
You ask about Revelation 19:13 and 19:16 which state:
Quote Revelation 19:13-16 (King James Version) 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS
Revelation 19:13 states that “his nameshall be called the Word of God”.
This speaks of Jesus authority as head of the church and as the judge of the living and the dead. He obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross and so, he was exalted by God to that position.
The following scripture I believe will support the above statement:
Quote Revelation 19:10-16 (King James Version) 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for th
e testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi MB,
Jesus met on the moutain some anointed men who had died and were yet alive in the Spirit of God.
They too were still individuals that he conversed with.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,13:08) Hi MB,
Man is body soul and spirit and Jesus was a normal man.
His soul is with God clothed with a new body and enlivened by God's Spirit.
Nick,Good, so he is a separate being from God, not an “attachment” to God.
And we all live by spirit on loan from God. It's just that Jesus was given a never ending lease on his portion.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,13:18) Hi MB,
Jesus met on the moutain some anointed men who had died and were yet alive in the Spirit of God.
They too were still individuals that he conversed with.
Very good Nick,I concur.
mike
Hi MB,
He had the same portion as any natural man and it left him at calvary.
But at the Jordan he was given the Spirit without measure.[Jn3]
We can be given some share too unto eternal lifeQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,13:18) Hi MB,
Jesus met on the moutain some anointed men who had died and were yet alive in the Spirit of God.
They too were still individuals that he conversed with.
Please read Matthew 17:9. This verse tells us whether Moses and Elijah were actually there or whether there was another explanation.Quote (barley @ July 13 2010,14:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,13:18) Hi MB,
Jesus met on the moutain some anointed men who had died and were yet alive in the Spirit of God.
They too were still individuals that he conversed with.
Please read Matthew 17:9. This verse tells us whether Moses and Elijah were actually there or whether there was another explanation.
Hi Barley,I don't get it.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,12:10) Quote (942767 @ July 13 2010,11:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,11:14) Quote (942767 @ July 12 2010,13:20) Hi Mike: With this statement, I do agree. Jesus is still a man who now has a spiritual body, and that means that he is alive forever more. Death has no dominion over him.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I'm glad two people actually agree about something on HN!
It is not the spirituality that makes Jesus immortal. It was God's will that he now be eternal. To say God couldn't end the life of a being just because that being was spirit is to limit what God can and can't do, IMO. Now if God created angels and other spirit beings and told them they were immortal, then God cannot lie and end their life. This MIGHT be the case with Satan, for his punishment will be everlasting torment, not death. I don't know that the Bible actually says spirits are immortal, does it? I think a lot of people assume that…..maybe I missed something in scripture?
peace and love,
mikemike
Hi Mike:I said that I a agreed with you that Jesus was still a man who now has a spiritual body.
It is easy to agree when someone does not add or take away from what the scriptures state.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I didn't add or take anything away from this,
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Answer the questions I asked, please.
mike
Hi Mike:Try reading the scriptures in context, and then perhaps you will understand what is being said:
Quote Philippians2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty94,
You quote Rev 19:13 as '…his name is…' and follow that immediately saying, the verse says, ''…he SHALL be called…'''
Please explain how you manage to do this. Clearly, 'is' and 'shall be' are contextually incongruent time wise. One 'present' and the other 'future'Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,11:03) Quote (martian @ July 12 2010,07:59) I will not deal with things you pull out of context. The statement you quote is explained further on. You know what forget the post. I am not interested in debating philosophy with the Greeks. I would actually like to walk with God using Christ as my example. You have heard of that have you not?
Just answer a few questions.
1. How does your doctrine help me become more like Christ?
2. How does it make Christ more of a perfect example for me?
3. What happened to the memories and experences of the Christ in the prior life?
4. How did his preexistence effect his ability to walk with God on Earth?
Hi Martian,1. “This means eternal life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you HAVE SENT”. You must take in accurate knowledge of both, Martian. The Son of Man came FROM heaven – that knowledge is in the scriptures, why won't you take it in?
Let's say I didn't believe the transfiguration on the mountain was real, but you did. Your question #1 is like me asking you, “How does me believing the transfiguration really happened help me to become more like Christ?” It is a moot point.
2. That he was willing to leave the “comforts” he had and give up everything, including his life, to the glory of his God. Remember the rich man who walked away from Jesus sad because he had much wealth? Jesus didn't just suggest others do it, he led by example.
3. I imagine the same thing that happens to ours when we die. God puts them in a “data storage bank” or something to be returned to us when we are resurrected, IMO.
4. Sorry, but this question is also moot. I couldn't say how things would have been different had he not already existed before he came in the flesh, because that's not how it happened.
Btw, I showed you my 1st and 3rd century proof of how “firstborn of all creation” and “only begotten” was understood – not just by any old body off the street – but by men who were renowned for their understanding of the scriptures. I'm still waiting on your proof that those Greek terms mean something different than what they say.
mike
Quote (martian @ July 12 2010,07:59)
I will not deal with things you pull out of context. The statement you quote is explained further on.You know what forget the post. I am not interested in debating philosophy with the Greeks. I would actually like to walk with God using Christ as my example. You have heard of that have you not?
Just answer a few questions.
1. How does your doctrine help me become more like Christ?
2. How does it make Christ more of a perfect example for me?
3. What happened to the memories and experences of the Christ in the prior life?
4. How did his preexistence effect his ability to walk with God on Earth?Hi Martian,
1.“This means eternal life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you HAVE SENT”. You must take in accurate knowledge of both, Martian. The Son of Man came FROM heaven – that knowledge is in the scriptures, why won't you take it in?
Reply —
Wrong and very wrong. It is with the heart that a man believes not by his accumulated knowledge. Thee are Monks that have the entire Bible memorized, but they have no clue what it means nor do they take action on it’s contents nor does their knowledge help them become like Christ.
You continue –
Let's say I didn't believe the transfiguration on the mountain was real, but you did. Your question #1 is like me asking you, “How does me believing the transfiguration really happened help me to become more like Christ?” It is a moot point.Reply__
Becoming like Christ is a moot point? Having doctrines that actually do something to help you become like Christ a moot point? The greatest and most wonderful purpose of Christ ministry was to give hope to a hopeless creation. Your doctrine does not build hope in the hearts of man. Your doctrine opens loopholes and brings doubt into the example of Christ. You work against the hope Chrst is trying to establish in our hearts.You say-
2. That he was willing to leave the “comforts” he had and give up everything, including his life, to the glory of his God. Remember the rich man who walked away from Jesus sad because he had much wealth? Jesus didn't just suggest others do it, he led by example.Reply-
Wrong and wrong again. There is no real functional example in A god giving up his place in heaven to be a man. How does that really help me. I do not think I will ever be a God to give up my place in heaven. I am talking about real examples of how to walk with God as a human being on the Earth. How do I do that? Show me a man that is of the same nature and has no advantage over me do it so I can know that I can do it too. Therein lies my hope.You say –
3. I imagine the same thing that happens to ours when we die. God puts them in a “data storage bank” or something to be returned to us when we are resurrected, IMO.Reply –
So you are saying that the Christ that preexisted in heaven died and his memories were stored in some storage bank till he was resurrected? Really? Is the bank guarded by little green men and Elvis? You are the one advancing this theory you should at least know how it works.4. Sorry, but this question is also moot. I couldn't say how things would have been different had he not already existed before he came in the flesh, because that's not how it happened.
Reply –
Talk about circular reasoning. Thanks for showing how irrational you really are.
You response reminds me of a summer I spent on a archeological dig.
One of the Archeologist was lecturing on dating bones. She showed us a bone buried in a strata of sand. She said it was 1,000,000 years old. I ask her how she knew and she replied “Because the strata of sand is 1,000,000 years old. I ask how she knew the strata was that old and she said because they found the bone in it that is 1,000,000 years old.You use your theory to prove that your theory is correct. How irrational is that!!!
I ask specifically if Christ preexistence gave him any advantage over the rest of humanity in the way he accomplished all he did on Earth. You do not know. So you do not know if Christ had a significant advantage in walking with God or not. So we do not know if we can overcome as Christ overcame. We do not know if we can be resurrected as Christ was resurrected. We do not know if anything Christ did is in the realms of possibility for us to accomplish. Your theory brings everything Christ did as our example into doubt. You destroy the hope his example is meant to foster. Your theory works against the plan of God in his Christ.You ask –
Btw, I showed you my 1st and 3rd century proof of how “firstborn of all creation” and “only begotten” was understood – not just by any old body off the street – but by men who were renowned for their understanding of the scriptures. I'm still waiting on your proof that those Greek terms mean something different than what they say.Reply –
I have already dealt with the “firstborn” issue and posted it twice to you. Have you ignored it or what?
I am unaware of any discussion with you concerning “Only Begotten”.Mike……………martian is right brother, we can only truly identify with Jesus by understanding He is (EXACTLY) like we are in (EVERY) way no advantages of any Kind at all. Just that GOD was Perfecting this human being Brother of ours, and in so doing giving us an exact example to follow. Why would GOD even consider a preexisting being to achieve his goal with mankind. It make no sense at all for God to do that, it would prove nothing to anyone. The whole false teachings of the Trinity and Preexistence is of the apostate religions. Come out of these and the whole picture will become far more clearer to you brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Gene,
Jesus was not “EXACTLY” like us. Jesus was SINLESS, We are NOT.
Jesus came to REMOVE the base SIN in man that condemned him from birth so that what was left was man's own PERSONAL sin that he undertakes in his Life.Jesus showed us how it is possible to BE Sinless but Sin in Man is so strong that even the strongest in Faith sins – But He did not leave us stranded for all that but left us the promise of forgiveness for those who, as many as, and more than, 70 times 70 times 70 times sinned against a brother, can be forgiven.
The 'secret' is FAITH, faith as small as a Mustard seed.
Then after Faith, Works.
Then after Works, Hope…Marty! You claim that “The Word in Rev. 19:13 means that He is the head of the Church. We have another Scripture for that.
1 Corinth. 11:3 while Rev. 19:13 is telling us that He will come as “The Word of God, the second time. You did not acknowledge verse 16 it explains that He will be KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
You ignore John 1:1 and verse 14, it goes along with Rev. 19:13. There is no other being who is called God in Heaven, but Jesus…. Most here make the mistake that because it says God, that now He is Jehovah Almighty God, while He is Mighty God….. Is your Son called by your last name?
Is He now the same person then you are? Firstborn of all creation is not firstborn of all creation? And Jesus is a liar when He said that He wants the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was?? And that He came down from Heaven and that He was before Abraham???? All these Scriptures do not say what they do???? Well, believe what you want to believe I go by Scriptures the way they are written, and not how someone interprets them, and changes the meaning…….. Peace be with you, IreneQuote (JustAskin @ July 14 2010,02:42) Gene,
Jesus was not “EXACTLY” like us. Jesus was SINLESS, We are NOT.
Jesus came to REMOVE the base SIN in man that condemned him from birth so that what was left was man's own PERSONAL sin that he undertakes in his Life.Jesus showed us how it is possible to BE Sinless but Sin in Man is so strong that even the strongest in Faith sins – But He did not leave us stranded for all that but left us the promise of forgiveness for those who, as many as, and more than, 70 times 70 times 70 times sinned against a brother, can be forgiven.
The 'secret' is FAITH, faith as small as a Mustard seed.
Then after Faith, Works.
Then after Works, Hope…
In potential Christ was exactly like us. He had the same potential for Good or bad. Because of this we can overcome like he did. Christ sheeding of Blood opened the door for us to be forgiven. Putting our sins as far as the east is from the west never to be emembered. That means of this moment we are sinless in the eyes of God and could achieve the same overcoming as Christ if we had the faith to do so.Martian,
NO…No sir… We are NOT SINLESS in the Eyes of God…
We are cleared of the SIN OF ADAM, original SIN that Condemned ALL MANKIND. BUT we are not cleared of Personal SIN. AND WE ALL Have Personal SIN – That is why there is Forgiveness – If we Repent. We could not REPENT OF The SIN of Adam because it wasn't OUR SIN to repent from. But even so, by being Righteous, God could commit the Former ones to Salvation BY HIS GRACE.
Quote (JustAskin @ July 13 2010,15:53) 94, You quote Rev 19:13 as '…his name is…' and follow that immediately saying, the verse says, ''…he SHALL be called…'''
Please explain how you manage to do this. Clearly, 'is' and 'shall be' are contextually incongruent time wise. One 'present' and the other 'future'
Hi JA:I just made a mistake in restating it. His name “is called” is what the scripture states.
Please forgive me.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Arnold @ July 14 2010,04:47) Marty! You claim that “The Word in Rev. 19:13 means that He is the head of the Church. We have another Scripture for that.
1 Corinth. 11:3 while Rev. 19:13 is telling us that He will come as “The Word of God, the second time. You did not acknowledge verse 16 it explains that He will be KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
You ignore John 1:1 and verse 14, it goes along with Rev. 19:13. There is no other being who is called God in Heaven, but Jesus…. Most here make the mistake that because it says God, that now He is Jehovah Almighty God, while He is Mighty God….. Is your Son called by your last name? Is He now the same person then you are? Firstborn of all creation is not firstborn of all creation? And Jesus is a liar when He said that He wants the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was?? And that He came down from Heaven and that He was before Abraham???? All these Scriptures do not say what they do???? Well, believe what you want to believe I go by Scriptures the way they are written, and not how someone interprets them, and changes the meaning…….. Peace be with you, Irene
Hi Irene:I have already given you my understanding to the scriptures which is what I said that I would do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
