Preexistence

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2010,10:57)

Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,09:54) Hi: And just to make sure we shut the door on the notion of preexistence based on Colossians 1:15.  That scripture states that Jesus is: Quote Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: That is “a creature” and not a “spirit”, and so if Eve is the mother of all living, Jesus did not preexist his birth from the virgin Mary. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, Why are not angels and other heavenly beings “creatures”? Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Apparently there are creatures in heaven.  Was Eve the mother of them?  Could Jesus have been the firstborn of every creature and still be a spirit?  Why do you think creature only applies to fleshly beings? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike:

So are you saying that Jesus was a creature prior to his birth of the virgin Mary? Obviously, “Eve was the mother of all humanity”. Is a spirit a creature?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Hi Marty,

That's what I'm asking you. Is there any reason that I don't know about why “ktisis” or “creature” must mean a flesh and blood being? What about the Rev scripture I gave? It says all creatures in heaven…… Can flesh and blood enter God's Kingdom in heaven?

ps, I'm not saying Jesus was “a creature”, I'm saying he was the firstborn of EVERY creature, just like the scriptures teach.

mike

[Arnold]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2010,14:48)

Hi Marty,   That's what I'm asking you.  Is there any reason that I don't know about why “ktisis” or “creature” must mean a flesh and blood being?  What about the Rev scripture I gave?  It says all creatures in heaven……  Can flesh and blood enter  God's Kingdom in heaven? ps, I'm not saying Jesus was “a creature”, I'm saying he was the firstborn of EVERY creature, just like the scriptures teach. mike

Mike, I agree with you!!!! Jesus was the firstborn of all creation…. creature is just a name used as a created being, nothing else…..
I would not call Jesus a creature when He is the Son of God. That would not be polite to do….. Not a mere man at all…… But the Son of God who came forth from our Heavenly Father…. Proverbs 8 tells us so elegantly….Irene

[942767]

Hi Irene:

Jesus ascended into heaven after his resurrection as a man with a glorified body. He said this to Thomas:

Quote

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The whole of the OT speaks of the coming of the Messiah either by prophecy or by symbolism. When John 1 states that the Word became flesh, I understand this to mean that the prophetic Word of God regarding the Messiah was fulfilled in the person of Jesus God's Son and His Christ.

And so, when the scriptures speak of “his name is called the Word of God”, it speaks of his character. God spoke to humanity through him, and he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. And so, to us he is the Word of God, Hebrews 5 states “he became the author of eternal life to all who obey him. Jesus is the express image of God's person.

Yes, I know it is hard for someone who thinks that they are correct to accept correction when they are wrong, and I believe that you are wrong regarding this issue.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Arnold @ July 07 2010,15:02)

Mike, I agree with you!!!!   Jesus was the firstborn of all creation…. creature is just a name used as a created being, nothing else….. I would not call Jesus a creature when He is the Son of God.  That would not be polite to do….. Not a mere man at all…… But the Son of God who came forth from our Heavenly Father…. Proverbs 8 tells us so elegantly….Irene

I hear ya, Irene.  Kathi doesn't like the “created” or “creature” wording either.  But it is what it is, right?  I think most people think of creature as “beast” or “animal”.  But every single thing God created is beautiful and glorious, from the biggest elephant to the smallest ant.

In Rev, I picture Jesus saying this with pride everytime I read it:

the beginning of the creation of God.

peace and love,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.
Jesus has an imperishble body and we will be like him[1Cor15]

The Spirit of Christ in him is the image of His God

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2010,14:48)

Hi Marty,   That's what I'm asking you.  Is there any reason that I don't know about why “ktisis” or “creature” must mean a flesh and blood being?  What about the Rev scripture I gave?  It says all creatures in heaven……  Can flesh and blood enter  God's Kingdom in heaven? ps, I'm not saying Jesus was “a creature”, I'm saying he was the firstborn of EVERY creature, just like the scriptures teach. mike

Hi Mike:

If he was the firstborn of every creature, then he must be a creature? Or how else can you read that he is the firstborn of every creature?

What I hear you saying is that Jesus was a spirit prior to his birth into this world. A spirit is not a creature.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You say that you are reading it the way it states it “firstborn of every creature”. Well if so, please let me hear how you interpret the scripture. What does that mean?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
God is the Father of spirits[heb12.9]

[Arnold]

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2010,15:35)

Hi Mike: You say that you are reading it the way it states it “firstborn of every creature”.  Well if so, please let me hear how you interpret the scripture.  What does that mean? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty! Some Bibles say creatures and other Bibles like my King James say the beginning of the creation of God. Rev., 3:14. And also in Col. 1;15 it says He is the firstborn over all creation…..What does that mean?? He was in Heaven with His Father before the world was. John 17:5 again, and in verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. I also like verse 18 … so that in all things He may have preeminence, meaning He was first in all…..LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS…. Irene

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 07 2010,17:13)

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2010,15:35) Hi Mike: You say that you are reading it the way it states it “firstborn of every creature”.  Well if so, please let me hear how you interpret the scripture.  What does that mean? Love in Christ, Marty Marty!   Some Bibles say creatures and other Bibles like my King James say the beginning of the creation of God. Rev., 3:14.  And also in Col. 1;15 it says He is the firstborn over all creation…..What does that mean?? He was in Heaven with His Father before the world was.  John 17:5 again, and in verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.    I also like verse 18 … so that in all things He may have preeminence, meaning He was first in all…..LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS…. Irene

I know you do not want to engage with me. that is fine, but you are doing just exactly what I said you were doing. You keep putting up the same scriptures over and over again as if repetition will somehow make them more important.
the fact is the the aspect of christ as the firstborn has been thoroughly explained through Hebrew law, history and scriptural example. you refuse to even acknowledge it let alone consider it.
You are portraying the broken record again. You have made your point. (wrong as it may be) if you are not going to discuss alternatives to your personal interpretations then find another subject.

[martian]

A point about the concept of creation.
From the hebrew way of thinking. The Hebrews had no concept of creating something out of nothing. it was just not thought of in that way. the word “create” in the hebrew is “bara” and literally means to fatten. It is used in conjunction with fattening cattle or holds the concept of bringing to fruition or completion. Christ is the first to be brought to completion. He was the first fruits or brought to fruition. the first of all that God created to complete what it was created to be. The first human to end the race and become a fully matured son. the first one made ripe for the picking.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2010,14:48)

Hi Marty,   That's what I'm asking you.  Is there any reason that I don't know about why “ktisis” or “creature” must mean a flesh and blood being?  What about the Rev scripture I gave?  It says all creatures in heaven……  Can flesh and blood enter  God's Kingdom in heaven? ps, I'm not saying Jesus was “a creature”, I'm saying he was the firstborn of EVERY creature, just like the scriptures teach. mike

Mike ……….The trip word there is (OF) ,it can be taken several ways. As part of something, as a piece of the pie, or Jesus was the firstborn creation, Which makes no sense because a creation is no (born) it is created into existence. But because the definite article (THE) is not there it must imply something else. Here it implies (FROM) and Indeed Jesus was the First to be Born into the kingdom of GOD (FROM) the CREATION of mankind. And he was indeed Born because he had a Body filled with Spirit from the Jordan but his body was still flesh and blood, even though he had the fullness of the spirit in him, so he still could die physically,He was there (begotten) of GOD but he need a eternal BODY and he recieved this at his resurrection. We will see Jesus exactly as he was when he ascended into heaven with that same body also. IMO

peace and love ………………..gene

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2010,15:40)

Hi 94, God is the Father of spirits[heb12.9]

Yes Nick:

God is the Father of spirits.  Jesus stated the the Words that he spoke were “spirit and they were life”.  

Those who have been born again have God as the Father of their spirit.

The devil is also the father of spirits, and is the author of confusion.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mike and Irene:

Reading Colossians 1 in context:

Quote

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us intothe kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the “FIRSTBORN” of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the “FIRSTBORN” from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

These scriptures do not have anything to do with preexistence. The Apostle Paul begins with speaking of those who are born again being translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son, and he says “Who is the image of the invisible God”. (In John 14 Jesus has said: “he who has seen me has seen the Father”). The Greek world “firstborn” of every creature” and “the firsborn” from the dead is the same word.

And so, whether the translation of verse 15 is “every creature” or of all of creation”. He is indeed the “first begotten” of God of any creature or of all of creation. He is the “Only Begotten Son of God”.

My conclusion is that these verses of scripture are emphasizing the “Kingdom of God's dear Son”, and he is the head of the body, the church, “who is the beginning…”. God has reconciled all things to Himself through His Son.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2010,15:28)

If he was the firstborn of every creature, then he must be a creature?  Or how else can you read that he is the firstborn of every creature? What I hear you saying is that Jesus was a spirit prior to his birth into this world.  A spirit is not a creature.

Hi Marty,

Where do you get this info from?  Aren't angels spirit creatures?  What about this?
Revelation 4:7 NIV
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

Were these creatures spirit?

How about this one,
Ezekiel 10:15 NIV
Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River. 

We know cherubim are angels.  We know angels are spirit.  Yet Ezekiel called them “creatures”.

And finally,
Revelation 5:13 NIV
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
  “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
  be praise and honor and glory and power,
        for ever and ever!”

What does every creature IN HEAVEN mean?

Btw, I didn't emphasize the right word before.  I don't think Jesus is just A creature, but the first and most important creature of all. He is the firstborn of every creature, just like the scriptures teach.

mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2010,11:54)

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2010,15:28) If he was the firstborn of every creature, then he must be a creature?  Or how else can you read that he is the firstborn of every creature? What I hear you saying is that Jesus was a spirit prior to his birth into this world.  A spirit is not a creature. Hi Marty, Where do you get this info from?  Aren't angels spirit creatures?  What about this? Revelation 4:7 NIV In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. Were these creatures spirit? How about this one, Ezekiel 10:15 NIV Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River.  We know cherubim are angels.  We know angels are spirit.  Yet Ezekiel called them “creatures”. And finally, Revelation 5:13 NIV 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:   “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb   be praise and honor and glory and power,         for ever and ever!” What does every creature IN HEAVEN mean? Btw, I didn't emphasize the right word before.  I don't think Jesus is just A creature, but the first and most important creature of all.  He is the firstborn of every creature, just like the scriptures teach. mike

Hi Mike:

Angels are creatures but they are not born of God.

Quote

Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 09 2010,14:20)

Hi Mike: Angels are creatures but they are not born of God.

Hi Marty,

I don't even know what that means exactly, but at least you acknowledge that spirit beings are creatures. Jesus is a spirit being, why can't he be the firstborn of every creature like the Bible says?

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……….Angels are not spirit Creatures, there is not such thing as a spirit creature, angels are Beings that have spirit (IN) them. God Created them and Puts theirs spirits (IN) them and sends them out to minister to the heirs of salvation. People get confused because it say God Makes His angles Spirits , thinking He is saying He made them spirit (Beings) but it does not say that , what is is really is saying is GOD makes their Spirit in them. This whole concept of literial spirit beings is a false teaching , there is only one who is pure spirit, it's GOD The FATHER, and Him alone. IMO

Peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………….gene

[Arnold]

To whom it may concern!!!!  When Scriptures say creatures, and we know who is in Heaven with Jehovah God we know that they are Spirit beings, because we also know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God…. When we have two Scriptures that says that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and that in Him all things consist we should acknowledge it.  Col. 1:15-18  Verse 18 tells us that He was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the death.  So in all things He may have preeminence….meaning first in all.  When we have two Scriptures that tell us that The Word of God is Jesus whe should believe it….. And that Word became flesh we do know that He also is:'KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  Rev. 19:16.  In verse 13 Scriptures tell us that The Word had a robe on  dipped in blood.  Who else would that be, but Jesus.  
And most of all when by Jesus own words He says that He was in Heaven and has come down, emptied Himself and became like Servant….. Phil. 2:5
John explains it so nicely for us that Jesus was before Abraham and He was before THE WORLD WAS IN
John  17:5 then John tells us in John 6:39-40 that He came from Heaven to do the will of Him who send Him.  These Scriptures all prove that Jesus was a Spirit Being before the world was, created through Jesus, by the power of His Father….. Gene you really need to read up on this.  Heaven Net does have a good article which I already posted here and gets ignored….Peace be with all of you, Irene

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