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Marty………..True , but we must first get the basics right, if we do not then we just keep going down the wrong path and this path distorts the word of God and it's meaning in our lives as martian brought our , it is a major issue that need understanding in order for us to have a right fellowship with Jesus and God the Father. Apostate Churches have greately distorted the truth of God and Jesus. If everyone can get this right they will be going down the right path to GOD The Father and Jesus our brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,12:28) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.
Hi Martian:If the Word of God does not convince them, then there is there is no use of my posting any thing more regarding this subject.
It is not my opinion but the Word of God that matters, and I believe that I have shown by the scriptures that there is no preexistence.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 06 2010,13:07) Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,12:28) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.
Hi Martian:If the Word of God does not convince them, then there is there is no use of my posting any thing more regarding this subject.
It is not my opinion but the Word of God that matters, and I believe that I have shown by the scriptures that there is no preexistence.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Scripture clearly calls us to follow Jesus as our example. Preexistence calls into question everything that Christ did as to if his preexistence affected his abilities. You cannot have an example that is fundementally different then us. That is both scriptural and reasonable.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,03:45) Quote (martian @ July 03 2010,11:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2010,01:22) martian……..Those things WJ quoted were from the old Hebrew texts brother. peace and love to you and yours martian………………………gene
No he is quoting a greek translation in the NT of a Hebrew text. I am more interested in the original hebrew text
MartianThe Hebrew word for hardened is “chazaq” which also means “harden”.
1) to strengthen, prevail, “harden“, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
I think the Apostle Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews knows more about the meaning of the word “harden” when applied to Pharaoh than you do! Rom 9:13-23
WJ
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12) WJ
This is typical of your responses. You are so very very dishonest. You only research as far as you need to prove your doctrine. You are not interested in truth you are only interested in proof of your doctrine. Your scriptural investigations are a joke.
When ever necessary you will use English translations to prove your points even when the actual Greek or Hebrew says something different.
MartianBefore you make such lame accusations you should at least back up what you say. But I understand this is your style. Just puke out all kinds of belittling statements and that makes you look and sound legitimate. But honest people know better.
First of all as I have shown you the Hebrew word for “hardened” in referring to Pharaoh is “chazaq”.
And the LORD hardened (chazaq) the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exd 9:12
The Hebrew word “chazaq” means;
1)to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
The Apostle Paul confirms the meaning of the word in referring to the Pharaoh when he uses the Greek word… sklērynō here…
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth(sklērynō)
Rom 9:17, 18The Greek word means;
1) to make hard, harden
2) metaph.
a) to render obstinate, stubborn
b) to be hardened
c) to become obstinate or stubbornI think the Apostle Paul knows a whole lot more than you do. Now show me where I am wrong sir!
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12)
For two years we have discussed the word Spirit as in the Holy Spirit. You use the English word spirit because it indicates an entity which lines up with your theory of a Trinity. You do this because to use the actual Greek definition of the word (breath or wind) would detract from that premise. That is just dishonest.
It is dishonest for you to make such statements because the Greek word for Spirit is Strong's G4151 – pneuma which means;1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouthThe Hebrew word is “Strong's H7307 – ruwach which means;
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised forceFor some reason you think that the word should only mean “Breath” or “wind”.
But if I ask you is God a “Spirit” being then you would say yes, but when it comes to its application to the Holy Spirit you would say no when Jesus specifically speaks of the Holy Spirit with personal pronouns surrounded with verbs and adjectives that belong to living beings only.
So unless you can show some credentials that supersede or even equal that of “James Strong”, then why should I or anyone else listen to you?
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12) If a conclusion of scripture is correct you should be able to plug the Hebrew or Greek definition into the scripture without changing your conclusion. You cannot do that because to replace Spirit with wind or breath would weaken your stand that spirit is an entity in and of itself.
Obviously you do not know what you are talking about because words have different meanings depending on context. This is true of any language.So if you plug in the definition “Breath” or “Wind” to God who is a Spirit and Angels who are also Spirit beings then your conclusion is God and Angels are just “Breath” an “Wind”.
God is a (breath or wind): and they that worship him must worship him in (breath or wind) and in truth. John 4:24
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12) You and your red headed step child “Roo” are two peas in a pod. Both dishonest and beyond reason. I find your methods corrupt and your conclusions completely with out merit. 
WJ
Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,13:07) Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,12:28) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.
Hi Martian:If the Word of God does not convince them, then there is there is no use of my posting any thing more regarding this subject.
It is not my opinion but the Word of God that matters, and I believe that I have shown by the scriptures that there is no preexistence.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! If the Word of Gods will not convince you then there is no reason to go on, right? So what do you do with those Scriptures which are The Word of God, that proved to me that Jesus was created before the World was? If it would only be that one Scripture, I could go with what you and others are saying. However there are many Scriptures where Jesus said I have come down from Heaven. And O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. And Before Abraham I am. He was from Ancient times…. Did you ever read the Article from H.N. it is a very good post…. I get aso frustrated because I see all these Scriptures and so many here just want to either ignore them or interpret them the way they see it. But how can you say to Jesus no you did not come from Heaven….. When I read in 1Corinth. 15 also it explains it so good……I will not debate with Martian and will not say anything further to you either because I said it all…… good luck to you and may God be with you, IreneHi Irene,
Yes the Spirit of Christ was there.
God sends forth His Spirit and they are created and He renews the face of the earth[from ps104]Quote (Arnold @ July 07 2010,05:59) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,13:07) Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,12:28) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.
Hi Martian:If the Word of God does not convince them, then there is there is no use of my posting any thing more regarding this subject.
It is not my opinion but the Word of God that matters, and I believe that I have shown by the scriptures that there is no preexistence.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! If the Word of Gods will not convince you then there is no reason to go on, right? So what do you do with those Scriptures which are The Word of God, that proved to me that Jesus was created before the World was? If it would only be that one Scripture, I could go with what you and others are saying. However there are many Scriptures where Jesus said I have come down from Heaven. And O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. And Before Abraham I am. He was from Ancient times…. Did you ever read the Article from H.N. it is a very good post…. I get aso frustrated because I see all these Scriptures and so many here just want to either ignore them or interpret them the way they see it. But how can you say to Jesus no you did not come from Heaven….. When I read in 1Corinth. 15 also it explains it so good……I will not debate with Martian and will not say anything further to you either because I said it all…… good luck to you and may God be with you, Irene
Those scriptures have alredy been explained. You just deny them and turn on the old broken record again.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,04:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,03:45) Quote (martian @ July 03 2010,11:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2010,01:22) martian……..Those things WJ quoted were from the old Hebrew texts brother. peace and love to you and yours martian………………………gene
No he is quoting a greek translation in the NT of a Hebrew text. I am more interested in the original hebrew text
MartianThe Hebrew word for hardened is “chazaq” which also means “harden”.
1) to strengthen, prevail, “harden“, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
I think the Apostle Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews knows more about the meaning of the word “harden” when applied to Pharaoh than you do! Rom 9:13-23
WJ
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12) WJ
This is typical of your responses. You are so very very dishonest. You only research as far as you need to prove your doctrine. You are not interested in truth you are only interested in proof of your doctrine. Your scriptural investigations are a joke.
When ever necessary you will use English translations to prove your points even when the actual Greek or Hebrew says something different.
MartianBefore you make such lame accusations you should at least back up what you say. But I understand this is your style. Just puke out all kinds of belittling statements and that makes you look and sound legitimate. But honest people know better.
First of all as I have shown you the Hebrew word for “hardened” in referring to Pharaoh is “chazaq”.
And the LORD hardened (chazaq) the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exd 9:12
The Hebrew word “chazaq” means;
1)to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
The Apostle Paul confirms the meaning of the word in referring to the Pharaoh when he uses the Greek word… sklērynō here…
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth(sklērynō)
Rom 9:17, 18The Greek word means;
1) to make hard, harden
2) metaph.
a) to render obstinate, stubborn
b) to be hardened
c) to become obstinate or stubbornI think the Apostle Paul knows a whole lot more than you do. Now show me where I am wrong sir!
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12)
For two years we have discussed the word Spirit as in the Holy Spirit. You use the English word spirit because it indicates an entity which lines up with your theory of a Trinity. You do this because to use the actual Greek definition of the word (breath or wind) would detract from that premise. That is just dishonest.
It is dishonest for you to make such statements because the Greek word for Spirit is Strong's G4151 – pneuma which means;1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouthThe Hebrew word is “Strong's H7307 – ruwach which means;
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised forceFor some reason you think that the word should only mean “Breath” or “wind”.
But if I ask you is God a “Spirit” being then you would say yes, but when it comes to its application to the Holy Spirit you would say no when Jesus specifically speaks of the Holy Spirit with personal pronouns surrounded with verbs and adjectives that belong to living beings only.
So unless you can show some credentials that supersede or even equal that of “James Strong”, then why should I or anyone else listen to you?
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12) If a conclusion of scripture is correct you should be able to plug th
e Hebrew or Greek definition into the scripture without changing your conclusion. You cannot do that because to replace Spirit with wind or breath would weaken your stand that spirit is an entity in and of itself.
Obviously you do not know what you are talking about because words have different meanings depending on context. This is true of any language.So if you plug in the definition “Breath” or “Wind” to God who is a Spirit and Angels who are also Spirit beings then your conclusion is God and Angels are just “Breath” an “Wind”.
God is a (breath or wind): and they that worship him must worship him in (breath or wind) and in truth. John 4:24
Quote (martian @ July 04 2010,08:12) You and your red headed step child “Roo” are two peas in a pod. Both dishonest and beyond reason. I find your methods corrupt and your conclusions completely with out merit. WJ
You say “honest people know better”. How would you know then.Then why does Strong’s assign five different numbers to the words?
7185, 7188, 2388, 3513, and even 553
Obviously you were not aware of this because you only research as far as needed to find something to prove your doctrine (right or wrong) You are not interested in truth but only what you can use as proof.AND –
You either ignore or missed my point about spirit.
I find it interesting that the primary meaning of Spirit would change from wind or breath in the OT to third person of the Trinity in the NT. Obviously the definition you use is based on a doctrinal application rather then a pure language study. In fact the Strong’s Concordance does not list any reference for either word, to the third person of the trinity. It simply says wind or breath. So where does that concept come from. Not from the language or words themselves but from a biased writer and those that follow him. The Greeks had a word for Godhead and they had words to say three or third. Why was it not just written third person of godhead instead of wind or breath? Probably because no one could have foreseen such silliness made up about the breath of God.
I have also explained the verses you use with personal pronouns many times.
As a Grek thinker you miss the concrete ways in which the Hebrew wrote and thought.
It is true that these words can have different meanings but to jump to the conclusion that they must mean an entity in and of itself is outside of those meanings.
One of the meanings of Ruach is character. God is the height of character and those that worship him must do so in that same character and truth. The same truth taught all through scripture.I would deal with more of your stuff but need to go for now.
Quote (martian @ July 07 2010,06:57) Quote (Arnold @ July 07 2010,05:59) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,13:07) Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,12:28) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.
Hi Martian:If the Word of God does not convince them, then there is there is no use of my posting any thing more regarding this subject.
It is not my opinion but the Word of God that matters, and I believe that I have shown by the scriptures that there is no preexistence.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! If the Word of Gods will not convince you then there is no reason to go on, right? So what do you do with those Scriptures which are The Word of God, that proved to me that Jesus was created before the World was? If it would only be that one Scripture, I could go with what you and others are saying. However there are many Scriptures where Jesus said I have come down from Heaven. And O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. And Before Abraham I am. He was from Ancient times…. Did you ever read the Article from H.N. it is a very good post…. I get aso frustrated because I see all these Scriptures and so many here just want to either ignore them or interpret them the way they see it. But how can you say to Jesus no you did not come from Heaven….. When I read in 1Corinth. 15 also it explains it so good……I will not debate with Martian and will not say anything further to you either because I said it all…… good luck to you and may God be with you, Irene
Those scriptures have alredy been explained. You just deny them and turn on the old broken record again.
Not “explained” but explained AWAY.the Roo
Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) You say “honest people know better”. How would you know then. Then why does Strong’s assign five different numbers to the words?
7185, 7188, 2388, 3513, and even 553
Obviously you were not aware of this because you only research as far as needed to find something to prove your doctrine (right or wrong) You are not interested in truth but only what you can use as proof.
MartianAnd what does that have to do with the Hebrew word used for this scripture…
And the LORD hardened (chazaq) the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exd 9:12
The Hebrew word “chazaq” means;
1)to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
Nice dance, you ignore the Greek word Paul used also!
The Apostle Paul confirms the meaning of the word in referring to the Pharaoh when he uses the Greek word… sklērynō here…
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth(sklērynō)
Rom 9:17, 18The Greek word means;
1) to make hard, harden
2) metaph.
a) to render obstinate, stubborn
b) to be hardened
c) to become obstinate or stubbornQuote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) AND –
You either ignore or missed my point about spirit.
I find it interesting that the primary meaning of Spirit would change from wind or breath in the OT to third person of the Trinity in the NT. Obviously the definition you use is based on a doctrinal application rather then a pure language study. In fact the Strong’s Concordance does not list any reference for either word, to the third person of the trinity. It simply says wind or breath.
Wrong, look again…the Greek word for Spirit is Strong's G4151 – pneuma which means;
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouthThe Hebrew word is “Strong's H7307 – ruwach which means;
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised forceQuote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) So where does that concept come from. Not from the language or words themselves but from a biased writer and those that follow him. The Greeks had a word for Godhead and they had words to say three or third. Why was it not just written third person of godhead instead of wind or breath? Probably because no one could have foreseen such silliness made up about the breath of God.
Do you have any Greek or Hebrew credentials? Who made you the final authority?Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) I have also explained the verses you use with personal pronouns many times.
As a Grek thinker you miss the concrete ways in which the Hebrew wrote and thought.
It is true that these words can have different meanings but to jump to the conclusion that they must mean an entity in and of itself is outside of those meanings.
One of the meanings of Ruach is character. God is the height of character and those that worship him must do so in that same character and truth. The same truth taught all through scripture.I would deal with more of your stuff but need to go for now.
You can’t even speak or read Hebrew or Greek and yet you want us to believe you think like the Hebrews!Like I said, James Strong and the experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek translation know far more than you. So continue on with your manmade theories.
WJ
.
Hi WJ,
Your claimed expertise on greek and hebrew does not bring you any closer to KNOWING the God of IsraelQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2010,16:08) Hi WJ,
Your claimed expertise on greek and hebrew does not bring you any closer to KNOWING the God of Israel
Well then I suppose the scriptures are not good for instruction and reproof in righteousness since we don't need Biblical Hebrew and Greek experts to bring us the translations?
WJ
Quote (Arnold @ July 07 2010,05:59) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,13:07) Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,12:28) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.
Hi Martian:If the Word of God does not convince them, then there is there is no use of my posting any thing more regarding this subject.
It is not my opinion but the Word of God that matters, and I believe that I have shown by the scriptures that there is no preexistence.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! If the Word of Gods will not convince you then there is no reason to go on, right? So what do you do with those Scriptures which are The Word of God, that proved to me that Jesus was created before the World was? If it would only be that one Scripture, I could go with what you and others are saying. However there are many Scriptures where Jesus said I have come down from Heaven. And O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. And Before Abraham I am. He was from Ancient times…. Did you ever read the Article from H.N. it is a very good post…. I get aso frustrated because I see all these Scriptures and so many here just want to either ignore them or interpret them the way they see it. But how can you say to Jesus no you did not come from Heaven….. When I read in 1Corinth. 15 also it explains it so good……I will not debate with Martian and will not say anything further to you either because I said it all…… good luck to you and may God be with you, Irene
Hi Irene:The Word of God has convinced me. Jesus was fore-ordained, but no, I have just showed you that the scripture states that Eve is the mother of all living, and the verse in colossians which you have used to support your view of preexistence says that Jesus is the “first born of every creature”.
If that is the case, that scripture is not speaking of preexistence. He is the first man to be be born of God.
I have already discussed all the other scriptures that you want to hold onto to support your position, but I do not interpret them in the same way that you do.
Again, Jesus was foreordained. God made every thing in this world knowing that a particular point in time he would conceive a Son who would be the saviour of all humanity.
Sorry, My understanding based on the Word of God is that Jesus did not preexist as a sentient being prior to his birth from the virgin Mary.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi WJ,
They are very useful to those in Christ.
But you must first enter the gate.
Seek first the kingdomQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,08:07) Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) You say “honest people know better”. How would you know then. Then why does Strong’s assign five different numbers to the words?
7185, 7188, 2388, 3513, and even 553
Obviously you were not aware of this because you only research as far as needed to find something to prove your doctrine (right or wrong) You are not interested in truth but only what you can use as proof.
MartianAnd what does that have to do with the Hebrew word used for this scripture…
And the LORD hardened (chazaq) the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exd 9:12
The Hebrew word “chazaq” means;
1)to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
Nice dance, you ignore the Greek word Paul used also!
The Apostle Paul confirms the meaning of the word in referring to the Pharaoh when he uses the Greek word… sklērynō here…
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth(sklērynō)
Rom 9:17, 18The Greek word means;
1) to make hard, harden
2) metaph.
a) to render obstinate, stubborn
b) to be hardened
c) to become obstinate or stubbornQuote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) AND –
You either ignore or missed my point about spirit.
I find it interesting that the primary meaning of Spirit would change from wind or breath in the OT to third person of the Trinity in the NT. Obviously the definition you use is based on a doctrinal application rather then a pure language study. In fact the Strong’s Concordance does not list any reference for either word, to the third person of the trinity. It simply says wind or breath.
Wrong, look again…the Greek word for Spirit is Strong's G4151 – pneuma which means;
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouthThe Hebrew word is “Strong's H7307 – ruwach which means;
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised forceQuote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) So where does that concept come from. Not from the language or words themselves but from a biased writer and those that follow him. The Greeks had a word for Godhead and they had words to say three or third. Why was it not just written third person of godhead instead of wind or breath? Probably because no one could have foreseen such silliness made up about the breath of God.
Do you have any Greek or Hebrew credentials? Who made you the final authority?Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,15:18) I have also explained the verses you use with personal pronouns many times.
As a Grek thinker you miss the concrete ways in which the Hebrew wrote and thought.
It is true that these words can have different meanings but to jump to the conclusion that they must mean an entity in and of itself is outside of those meanings.
One of the meanings of Ruach is character. God is the height of character and those that worship him must do so in that same character and truth. The same truth taught all through scripture.I would deal with more of your stuff but need to go for now.
You can’t even speak or read Hebrew or Greek and yet you want us to believe you think like the Hebrews!Like I said, James Strong and the experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek translation know far more than you. So continue on with your manmade theories.
WJ
.
This post is not to prove your doctrine wrong, bu
t to prove your method wrong and dishonest with the scriptures.
There are fifteen verses concerning the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. You quote only one because it can be used (in some manner) to prove your doctrine. You don’t investigate any farther and say that is honest research.
IT’S A SHAM!!!1.Exodus 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. 2388
2.Exodus 7:22 But the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts; and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. 2388
3.Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. 3513
4.Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, ” This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. 2388
5.Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go. 3513
6.Exodus 9:7 Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. 3513
7.Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses. 2388
8.Exodus 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 3513
9.Exodus 9:35 Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses. 2388
10.Exodus 10:1 [ The Plague of Locusts ] Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them, 3513
11.Exodus 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go. 2388
12.Exodus 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 2388
13. Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 2388
14. Exodus 14:8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and he chased after the sons of Israel as the sons of Israel were going out boldly. 2388
2388- To grab hold to refrain or support.
3513 To be heavy of weight, wealth, or importance.As I posted before. God provoked Pharaoh by refraining him from acting. This was done to see what would come out of Pharaoh. What came out was his arrogance. He became heavy with importance. He became lifted up with pride against God.
Now to spirit –
Strong’s concordance defines the exact word (pneuma) translation as wind or current of air,breath.
Now where in that literal translation does the concept come from that makes it mean an individual personality of a triune God? Obviously not from the literal translation. It is based on doctrine and not language.
This is not my authority. This is Strong.
In the plan of the book or the preface to the Greek lists, it says, “Immediately after each word is given the exact equivalent words in English letters.” Immediately following Pneuma is wind or breath or current of air. There is no mention of third person of the Trinity because it is not carried in the language itself.martian,July wrote:I have also explained the verses you use with personal pronouns many times.
As a Grek thinker you miss the concrete ways in which the Hebrew wrote and thought.
It is true that these words can have different meanings but to jump to the conclusion that they must mean an entity in and of itself is outside of those meanings.
One of the meanings of Ruach is character. God is the height of character and those that worship him must do so in that same character and truth. The same truth taught all through scripture.You say-
You can’t even speak or read Hebrew or Greek and yet you want us to believe you think like the Hebrews!Reply-
You do not have to speak Hebrew or Greek to understand how they thought.You say-
Like I said, James Strong and the experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek translation know far more than you. So continue on with your manmade theories.Reply-
I am relying on Strong’s exact translation and not a meaning that is not supported by the language..
Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,09:54) Hi: And just to make sure we shut the door on the notion of preexistence based on Colossians 1:15. That scripture states that Jesus is:
Quote Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: That is “a creature” and not a “spirit”, and so if Eve is the mother of all living, Jesus did not preexist his birth from the virgin Mary.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,Why are not angels and other heavenly beings “creatures”?
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.Apparently there are creatures in heaven. Was Eve the mother of them? Could Jesus have been the firstborn of every creature and still be a spirit? Why do you think creature only applies to fleshly beings?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (942767 @ July 07 2010,08:21) Quote (Arnold @ July 07 2010,05:59) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,13:07) Quote (martian @ July 06 2010,12:28) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,11:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02) 942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene:Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.
Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.
Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I wish it would end it but knowing a little about human nature I suspect not.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Proof,scriptural or otherwise means little to religious people with a dogma to promote.
Hi Martian:If the Word of God does not convince them, then there is there is no use of my posting any thing more regarding this subject.
It is not my opinion but the Word of God that matters, and I believe that I have shown by the scriptures that there is no preexistence.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! If the Word of Gods will not convince you then there is no reason to go on, right? So what do you do with those Scriptures which are The Word of God, that proved to me that Jesus was created before the World was? If it would only be that one Scripture, I could go with what you and others are saying. However there are many Scriptures where Jesus said I have come down from Heaven. And O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. And Before Abraham I am. He was from Ancient times…. Did you ever read the Article from H.N. it is a very good post…. I get aso frustrated because I see all these Scriptures and so many here just want to either ignore them or interpret them the way they see it. But how can you say to Jesus no you did not come from Heaven….. When I read in 1Corinth. 15 also it explains it so good……I will not debate with Martian and will not say anything further to you either because I said it all…… good luck to you and may God be with you, Irene
Hi Irene:The Word of God has convinced me. Jesus was fore-ordained, but no, I have just showed you that the scripture states that Eve is the mother of all living, and the verse in colossians which you have used to support your view of preexistence says that Jesus is the “first born of every creature”.
If that is the case, that scripture is not speaking of preexistence. He is the first man to be be born of God.
I have already discussed all the other scriptures that you want to hold onto to support your position, but I do not interpret them in the same way that you do.
Again, Jesus was foreordained. God made every thing in this world knowing that a particular point in time he would conceive a Son who would be the saviour of all humanity.
Sorry, My understanding based on the Word of God is that Jesus did not preexist as a sentient being prior to his birth from the virgin Mary.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So Christ did not go back as a Spirit Being?
As what did He become then? Foreordained????John 17:5 tells us that He did go back as what He was before…. I am not interpreting any Scripture what soever. I am writing them the way they are written. I believe that is what so many are doing with Scriptures…. When it says in John 1:1 that the Word was God and the Word was with God, it is not Jesus to them…Yet in verse 14 it says that the Word became flesh….And also in Rev, 19:13 it says this:” He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called “The Word of God. Go down to verse 16 and it tells us that He will come again as
:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” We should all know who that is…. At least I do…..I do know how hard it is to change ones mind, I at first said too:” you got to be kidding me.” Fortunately God opened my mind and showed me the truth. It also has nothing to do with the trinity, they believe that Christ always existed, which I don't. The Holy Spirit is not a person and by Jesus own words He said that His Father is greater the He is. And also that He is above all. (Just for those that believe in the trinity) This preexisting doctrine is of God, because it is in Scriptures….. More then one….I also want to say this. Jesus is of God and is the Mighty God while Jehovah God is LORD of all and the Almighty God…. Irene
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