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In Hebrew there are two words for the “Word of the LORD (YHWH).
peh-breath from the mouth and, dabar-a matter spoken of as, advice, answer, greetings, communicate, oracle.BTW oracle is the living Word of Elohim
Here's a link to a free downleadable version of the KJV with Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionaries:
http://www.e-sword.netQuote (Laurel @ July 18 2007,17:35) Just a thought and an inspired one:
The Spirit is the power of Elohim.
The Spirit is our means of communicating with Elohim.
The Spirit was the Word, and was made flesh.
The Spirit is the knowledge of Elohim.
Through His Spirit all things were made.Over and over we see the Spirit of Elohim is who He is.
We know that the Father gave all to His Son Y'shua.
Why is it so hard then to understand that Y'shua knew His Father before He came as flesh, since He was given to know all things. We need to understand ALL here. Once He was given to know all things, from that point on He can say, I was there from the beginning, or I knew my Father before I became flesh. He can say He decended from the heavens because He did, that is where creation began.I myself can say I knew Y'shua Messiah before He became flesh, but only because I read about Him in the Torah and the prophets and have the knowledge of the Spirit in me.
Hi L,
The Word, who was with God, was made flesh. and then filled with the Spirit of God at the Jordan.Quote Nick Hassan “So it was his own effort and powers that enabled him to be perfect?”
You must have missed part of my post. I will quote myself-
“The reason why Jesus accomplished the goal of being our Messiah, our Savor is because he, through the plan and instruction of God, overcame our enemy. Jesus fought off the human nature of sin through the things which God gave Him.”
“God shared with Jesus some of His powers, illustrating to him how much greater He truly is, compared to man. God giving Jesus the ability to heal and perform miracles, sealed the deal. Jesus could feel God’s power firsthand and truly believe in His abilities to lead us into great things. The knowledge Jesus attained through the history of the world and the information and power given to him by the Holy Spirit, built up so much love, respect and trust for Jesus in God, that it over powered the enemy, allowing him to fully follow God.”
Without God Jesus would be nothing and have nothing. The same goes for you and me. God is the source from which truth, love and life comes. God GAVE and Jesus received and Accepted. God gave Jesus choice, as He does give to all of us. We are all in debt to Jesus for choosing to follow God’s will, however we know that Jesus chose God because of God’s greatness.
Kejonn- Am I saying that YHWH’s powers are limited?
Let me put it this way, whatever YHWH sets out to accomplish it will most certainly come to pass.
Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse;
God communicates to us through His creation and what He has established on earth. Like I said, God is the author of highly complicated system. These systems show God’s awesome intelligence, His creativity and His powers.
I understand God by what He has given me. God has made me a daughter, a wife, a sister, a mother, and a friend. Knowing that I am His child, I can reflect on who He wants me to be, by looking at who I want my children to be. The same problems I face with my children are the same problems God faces with me. I believe just like I cannot tell my four year old all the facts of life in one day and expect her to not only understand them, but follow them perfectly, God cannot give us His knowledge all at once and expect us to follow it perfectly.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Does this verse not show that it takes time for God to perfect us?
Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Why must our minds be renewed, why couldn’t they have been made perfect in the beginning? Just maybe, God needs time to build righteousness into free will humans.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.
Why was it necessary that Jesus grow in wisdom, why didn’t God give him all wisdom at once? The brain of Jesus was no different then any other human, just like all children, Jesus learned things over time. This is how God created us. Could He have created us differently, more then likely, yes. Could God create a righteous living being in one day, in one second, it is not for me to say, HOWEVER, it should be obvious from the bible that God did not make humans capable of that, our brains are limited. God works with us under the parameters of how He created us.
Genesis 6:5The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6:6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
If God could create perfect free will humans instantaneously then why not put Himself out of sorrow and grief and just do so?
God is love, He is the source of love. Love is complicated it is developed through trust, and trust takes TIME. Robots are not capable of choice and they are not capable of experiencing love. When God created the free will human, He made their brains limited, making time necessary for development into righteousness.
Let’s examine the scriptures people are finding to be ODD!
John 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Surely the glory we see in the bible of Jesus is what he accomplished on earth, and not what he accomplished as a pre-existent being-for we are given NOTHING as to what sorts of things he accomplished as this being.
What glory does God attribute to Jesus? Is it by what God accomplished through him on earth, or what we don’t know of him as a pre-existent being? We know that God foreknew what he would accomplish through Jesus, so isn’t it logical to declare that the glory Jesus had before the world, was what God knew He was going to accomplish with him in the future.
It is really quite simply, God would not have created the world if He didn’t know ahead of time that He could fill it with righteous people. The whole purpose of creating the earth was for Christ and his Body. God did not create earth for sinful men, but for righteous men. Adam was the firstborn of what came to be a corrupted earth. Jesus is the first born of the New Creation. The OT tells us that a younger sibling can receive his older brother’s birth right, by the authority of the father, if he finds the older brother is not worthy of first born inheritance. The first born takes over the authority, leadership and wealth of the father. Because of Adam’s sin, and all sinned after that except Jesus, Jesus is the rightful heir to God’s kingdom on earth. He is our brother and our leader. You can see Jesus as firstborn in two lights. #1 He is the first to be resurrected from the dead, and born into eternal life. #2. Jesus took over Adam’s birth right, meaning, he was given by the Father the POSITION of first born, which is to be the leader of His kingdom on earth.
If the glory in this verse is not attributed to what God accomplished through Jesus on earth for the human race, then the scripture is meaningless to me.
One only has to read the verses before John 17:5 to know what the glory was before the world began.
John 17:1These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
The glory was that at the right time, God would raise up a person who would show the people who the only true God was. As Jesus accomplished showing the glory of the Father, the Father glorified him by giving him eternal life.
What is Jesus trying to tell us in John 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
Is Jesus revealing to us that he existed before his birth, knew of God’s plan and that he would be apart of it, but made to forget it, and now he has been given it again?
Or is Jesus recognizing that he was apart of God’s plan from the beginning and that indeed God can accomplish His goals, further showing how we can trust in God because that which he wills to do will surely be done! The glo
ry which Jesus understands is that God’s plan from the beginning of creation was to make righteous people and give them eternal life, which is what he knows he is about to receive.Given this scripture I do not see how my interpretation of John 17:5 is AT ALL ODD. 1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake.
If Jesus pre-existed and John 17:5 was truly meant to tell us so, you would think that 1 Peter 1:20 would confirm this, but the truth is it destroys it by telling us that he was foreknown, and not that he pre-existed.
Moving on,
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.This is quite simple, and you’ll have to forgive me for repeating myself-
God would not have created the world if He didn’t know ahead of time that he could make righteous people to enjoy it. Everything that God made on earth is not for sinful man but righteous man. Through knowing that God could perfect Jesus and by him many others, He created the earth.John 3:13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. “…?”
John 1:32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
Luke 3:22and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”Luke 1:31 And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God.
-The Son of man descended from heaven-
Are we being told that the Son of man pre-existed his birth and lived prior in another form? Sure we could speculate this but I cannot find any solid proof of this anywhere in the bible, neither can I find a purpose for it to be true.John 3:1 Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2 He came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, “You must be born from above.' 8 The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 “Very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen; yet you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Is not, the scriptures telling us that to be born from above is to receive the Holy Spirit? What is it that we are told descended from heaven, making Jesus who he is, not a pre-existent being, but it was the Holy Spirit that descended.
That which made him eternal and allowed him to ascend to heaven, is what came down from heaven. The Holy Spirit came down and created Jesus, giving Him the wisdom from above, making him born of heaven. The Spirit that made Jesus on earth descended as the power and knowledge of God, and ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.
Jesus was born of the Spirit which we know came down from heaven and entered the womb of Mary. This is how we are told Jesus came from Heaven.
John 1:14 And the Word [logos] became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
First let me say that scriptures can obviously be interpreted differently. I can admit that there are a few scriptures that could indicate a belief of pre-existence. However, I do not believe that pre-existence is the best explanation. I do not believe that I know the undeniable truth, I am not God and I am not Jesus. What I debate is that which I believe makes the best sense. I can only trust in that which I understand, in order for me to understand something it needs to make sense. I tend to believe in that which makes the best sense.
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son,
Through the works and words YHWH has given to man on earth, we have come to know Him. It is important to know who God is, so that we can have a proper relationship with Him. In the OT we learn that the word of God was revealed in bits and pieces through the profits. Jesus was different from all other prophets for instead of being given a piece of the word, he was given the fullness of the word. Moses showed us a piece of God’s identity, where as Jesus showed us the fullness of God. God’s purpose for Jesus was so that through him we could know the Only true God. So the word of God, the Spirit of God was given in full to Jesus, in order that we might know Him.
Notice that Hebrews 1:1 does NOT say that the Son of God spoke to our ancestors through the profits, it says that God did. No where does it say in the OT that a pre-existent Son spoke to humans on earth. It seems quite simple-God spoke to the profits and He spoke to Jesus. The fact that the word is said to have become flesh is very significant.
It is important to remember that God’s word is far greater then ours, for our word only represents spoken things, where as God’s words represent His power of being able to create life and love. I can tell the rain to stop, but it will not listen, God on the other hand, if He tells the rain to stop, it will surely listen.
God wanted us to know Him so He gave His word to Jesus. What Jesus spoke and what Jesus did on earth was God working through him. This is the word becoming flesh. Jesus is God’s representative of Him. It does not make sense to me that God wanted us to know Him so He sent His pre-existent son to become His human Son. Are we suppose to see in Jesus the pre-existent Son of God and therefore that’s how we are to know God? Or are we to see in Jesus the word of God, which we know is His intelligence, His power, His eternal life and love. How can I know God through a pre-existent being I know nothing about? I most certainly cannot, however I can know Him by His words, and I due know according to the bible that he gave His words to Jesus that we might know Him better.
I was going to post on the Conception thread but I will just do it here. I hope this answers your question Nick, even though my response is towards a post by Not3in1
Quotes from Not3in1
“3.Jesus did not preexist physically but was of God + Mary = Son of God and Son of Man = combination of parents (true conception)
Please tell me why I'm wrong to beleive #3? Why can't Jesus JUST BE the real Son of God and Mary?”“I believe God supernaturally provided a sperm that had his code (DNA).”
I am having a hard time understanding how exactly Jesus could be conceived by PART God material and part human material. I am sorry to say but if Jesus is part God, he is NOT fully human. In order for Jesus to be a human he would need 46 chromosomes, am I right? If Jesus was truly Mary’s offspring then he would need her egg, providing half the number of chromosomes needed to be human. Jesus would need the other half of the chromosomes from a sperm, after all that is what a sperm is, the second half of the complex components, which when combined with an egg, creates a human being.
The problem I see, Not 3 in One, with your reasoning is that you are defining God under His own made up system. DNA is a product of God’s creation. I do not think you can confine God‘s makeup to a product of which He has designed and created. I believe the bible to be clear in that there is only one God, no one else has been or ever will be one of His Kind, or for that matter be part of His Kind. We on the other hand, were MADE to reproduce more of our kind. Jesus is fully our KIND, not part us and part God. I do not think that a sperm could in anyway be a literal part, or replication of God. The DNA which God supplied to Mary to fertilize her egg was human DNA. The material to make Jesus was the same material used to make us, the only difference is that part of his material did not come from ancestry. Jesus was, in part similar to Adam in the fact that Adam’s genes did not come from previous existing DNA. All of Adam’s genes came directly from God through a design which God created, whereas, half of the genes in Jesus came directly from God.
Adam and Jesus were both begotten by God. All men and woman are descendants of Adam, and thus are God’s children. Because of Adam however we are all brought to death. God is life and since we face non existence because of Adam, when we die, all that can be said about us is that we WERE God’s children. Glory and honor to YHWH for He perfected a man, proving that indeed humans can follow the will of God. Through the perfection of Jesus, God could not hold him to the punishment of death, thus He rewarded him with eternal life. This is How Jesus is the Only begotten Son, however ‘only’ is represented as ‘thus far’. Those who follow Jesus, accepting God’s work through him, will be given eternal life and thus will be God’s children, as well.
Romans 1:1-7
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,We are dead children to God through Adam, but are eternal children to God through Jesus! Jesus is so far the ONLY perfected human living eternally with God. We must wait diligently for the promise.
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.” 23 Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli, 24 son of Matthat, son of Levi, son of Melchi, son of Jannai, son of Joseph, 25 son of Mattathias, son of Amos, son of Nahum, son of Esli, son of Naggai, 26 son of Maath, son of Mattathias, son of Semein, son of Josech, son of Joda, 27 son of Joanan, son of Rhesa, son of Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, F31 son of Neri, 28 son of Melchi, son of Addi, son of Cosam, son of Elmadam, son of Er, 29 son of Joshua, son of Eliezer, son of Jorim, son of Matthat, son of Levi, 30 son of Simeon, son of Judah, son of Joseph, son of Jonam, son of Eliakim, 31 son of Melea, son of Menna, son of Mattatha, son of Nathan, son of David, 32 son of Jesse, son of Obed, son of Boaz, son of Sala, F32 son of Nahshon, 33 son of Amminadab, son of Admin, son of Arni, F33 son of Hezron, son of Perez, son of Judah, 34 son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor, 35 son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Shelah, 36 son of Cainan, son of Arphaxad, son of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech, 37 son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan, 38 son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.
I believe the reason why Jesus could not be Joseph’s biological father is because Joseph is a descendant of Jeconiah, whom God had put a curse on considering the throne of David. In Jeremiah 22:30 we read that none of Jeconiah’s offspring would prosper sitting on the throne of David. This is why the conception of Jesus needed special intervention. As Joseph’s adopted son, he had legal right to the throne of David through being part of the Royal line of David’s descendents. However, because he was not of the blood of Joseph, Jeconiah’s curse would not apply. We also know that in order for Jesus to be the Messiah he must be of the blood line of David. I am convinced that Luke 3 gives us logical proof that Mary is of the David line.
We know that the genealogies given in Matthew and Luke are different and they each give Joseph as having a different father. There are some clues however which tell us that Matthew’s genealogy is of Joseph and Luke’s is of Mary. Matthew states that Jacob begat Joseph, while Luke states that Joseph was the son of Eli. Either there is major error in these two Gospels, or there is a simple answer that relates to understanding the Hebrew culture. A person who is said to be the SON of someone in the bible may be a grandson, a descendant of many generations, an adopted son, or a son in-law. It is most logical I believe, to understand that Jacob begetting Joseph means that he is his biological father, while the use of son in Luke is totally accurate wording for the relationship between Eli and Joseph as being in-laws. Moreover, because genealogies were given through the fathers, Joseph standing in for Mary when her genealogy was given, is understandable.
I don’t believe that Jesus had to be created in the way that he did, in order for him to be God’s Son. I believe that he was created this way in order for him to fill the prophesied requirements of the Messiah, which was for the Eternal King to be of the Royal line of David and to be of the ancestry of David.
I would like to admit for a moment that thanks to the conception thread, I have recently been researching the conception of Jesus, and this understanding of mine is very new. I believe that the bible says it is necessary for Jesus to be of the blood of David to inherit the throne. I feel that further research is necessary to feel confident that Jesus had to be accepted as part of the Royal line of David in order to be the Messiah. If anything, it should be noted that, at least to the Jews it would probably be necessary for Jesus to be of the Royal line in order for them to consider him to be their king. Just for clarity, Joseph was of the Royal line through being the descendant of David’s son Solomon, where as Mary was of the blood line through David’s son Nathan. I also find it very interesting that in my NIV Archaeological bible it says that the book of
Matthew was written for the Jewish audience, where as Luke was written mainly for the Greeks.Like I previously stated, I do not believe that it was in how Jesus was conceived, that made him God’s only begotten son. His special conception was a matter of Messiah fulfillment, where he needed to be of the Royal line without the blood of Joconiah (accomplished through being Josephs’ adopted son), but still carry the blood line of David (accomplished through being the biological son of Mary). I do believe that Jesus was special in the fact that God gave him all the fullness of the Holy Spirit, except of course eternal life, which was to come after his death. If Jesus was given some different CODE in his being, then he wouldn’t be like us, and he wouldn’t have been able to overcome and wash away our sins. As well, knowing he was fully like us, makes us believe that we can truly follow him. What we are to understand is that Jesus was given NEW INFORMATION within his mind. YHWH revealed the full truth of Himself and the full truth of His plan, concerning mankind, to Jesus. The reason why Jesus accomplished the goal of being our Messiah, our Savor is because he, through the plan and instruction of God overcame our enemy.
To all,
After putting many verses together, I have a strong doubt that the Word, logos, is talking about Yeshua as an entity before his earthly birth. I am going to try to put all of my thoughts together soon to bring it all together, but I am being led to believe that the Word is/was the Holy Spirit.Let me ask you, do we see this logos in the OT? Please point it out. But we do know that the Holy Spirit — the Holy Breath — was with God in the beginning, and was God because it came directly from Him.
The following may seem a little graphic, but the Holy Spirit was the seed to Mary's egg. In this way, the Holy Spirit became flesh. The Holy Spirit is not flesh, it is Spirit, but the union of Mary and the Holy Spirit resulted in the conception of the Son of Man, Son of God. A Man of flesh.
Take a moment to study Holy Spirit. Acts is a great place to start, because we see many instances that the Apostles spoke on behalf of God while filled with the Holy Spirit. They spoke the Word of God.
In Gen 1:2 we see the Spirit of God moving over the waters. And then God begins to speak. Through His speech all things were created. Job 33:4 says “The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”
In the OT, the Spirit of God came upon prophets so that they spoke the Word of God.
There is much more I've been noting and hope to present what I've find thus far so we can discuss it.
Am I saying that Yeshua is/was the Holy Spirit? No, but note another few verses
1Jo 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life–
1Jo 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us–Jhn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Look for more soon!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2007,08:36) Hi Jodi,
So Jesus was a new creation and not conceived?
Hi,
Jesus was conceived,
and was later filled with the Spirit of God.
The Son is a vessel for the Spirit and the Father poured of His own vessel into His Son.Good post, Jodi!
Thanks for taking time to answer one of my previous questions; I think you have a lot of good ideas here. I don't have time to go line-by-line right now, but I will tonight. If I have anything further to add, I'll post back. Thanks, again. It's good to see some action on these threads (besides just me and Nick going back and forth)
to all…..>the reason Jesus was an act of God was God the Father aleady described what he would look like and by manipulating the DNA He created him just the way He wanted him to look. This mericle did not qualify he as a son of God no more then we are.
God planly said when Jesus' son was acomplished it was when He recieved the Holy Spirit on Him and the voice came from heaven and said, ” thou art my son (THIS DAY) I have begotten you” all three gosples should say it this way, the reason they don't is because the text was altered to prevent the adoptionest from using it as a proof text, another alteration 1tim 3;16 most later manuscripts speak of Christ as “God made manifest in the flesh”, this early manuscript originally spoke, instead, of Christ ” who was manifest in the flesh, the change is very slight in Greek– it is the difference between a theta and an omicron, which looks very much alike. A later scribe had altered the original reading, so it no longer read “who” but “God” (made manafest in the flesh) in other words, this later corrector changed the text in such a way as to stress Christ's divinity.
these changes were done delebertly to force the idea that Jesus was nhimself God. Anything that moves Jesus identy away from our own destroys our hope of becomming exactly like him…..thanks…geneHi Gene,
Acts 13
30But God raised him from the dead:31And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
So Paul; uses the two matters of the resurrection and the fact of Jesus's body not rotting to show the jewish people that the promised messiah had come and fulfilled these proofs.
It was not that by resurrection he became the Son but was shown to be the Son of God.Quote (Jodi @ July 19 2007,09:14) I was going to post on the Conception thread but I will just do it here. I hope this answers your question Nick, even though my response is towards a post by Not3in1 Quotes from Not3in1
“3.Jesus did not preexist physically but was of God + Mary = Son of God and Son of Man = combination of parents (true conception)
Please tell me why I'm wrong to beleive #3? Why can't Jesus JUST BE the real Son of God and Mary?”“I believe God supernaturally provided a sperm that had his code (DNA).”
I am having a hard time understanding how exactly Jesus could be conceived by PART God material and part human material. I am sorry to say but if Jesus is part God, he is NOT fully human. In order for Jesus to be a human he would need 46 chromosomes, am I right? If Jesus was truly Mary’s offspring then he would need her egg, providing half the number of chromosomes needed to be human. Jesus would need the other half of the chromosomes from a sperm, after all that is what a sperm is, the second half of the complex components, which when combined with an egg, creates a human being.
The problem I see, Not 3 in One, with your reasoning is that you are defining God under His own made up system. DNA is a product of God’s creation. I do not think you can confine God‘s makeup to a product of which He has designed and created. I believe the bible to be clear in that there is only one God, no one else has been or ever will be one of His Kind, or for that matter be part of His Kind. We on the other hand, were MADE to reproduce more of our kind. Jesus is fully our KIND, not part us and part God. I do not think that a sperm could in anyway be a literal part, or replication of God. The DNA which God supplied to Mary to fertilize her egg was human DNA. The material to make Jesus was the same material used to make us, the only difference is that part of his material did not come from ancestry. Jesus was, in part similar to Adam in the fact that Adam’s genes did not come from previous existing DNA. All of Adam’s genes came directly from God through a design which God created, whereas, half of the genes in Jesus came directly from God.
Adam and Jesus were both begotten by God. All men and woman are descendants of Adam, and thus are God’s children. Because of Adam however we are all brought to death. God is life and since we face non existence because of Adam, when we die, all that can be said about us is that we WERE God’s children. Glory and honor to YHWH for He perfected a man, proving that indeed humans can follow the will of God. Through the perfection of Jesus, God could not hold him to the punishment of death, thus He rewarded him with eternal life. This is How Jesus is the Only begotten Son, however ‘only’ is represented as ‘thus far’. Those who follow Jesus, accepting God’s work through him, will be given eternal life and thus will be God’s children, as well.
Romans 1:1-7
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,We are dead children to God through Adam, but are eternal children to God through Jesus! Jesus is so far the ONLY perfected human living eternally with God. We must wait diligently for the promise.
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.” 23 Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli, 24 son of Matthat, son of Levi, son of Melchi, son of Jannai, son of Joseph, 25 son of Mattathias, son of Amos, son of Nahum, son of Esli, son of Naggai, 26 son of Maath, son of Mattathias, son of Semein, son of Josech, son of Joda, 27 son of Joanan, son of Rhesa, son of Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, F31 son of Neri, 28 son of Melchi, son of Addi, son of Cosam, son of Elmadam, son of Er, 29 son of Joshua, son of Eliezer, son of Jorim, son of Matthat, son of Levi, 30 son of Simeon, son of Judah, son of Joseph, son of Jonam, son of Eliakim, 31 son of Melea, son of Menna, son of Mattatha, son of Nathan, son of David, 32 son of Jesse, son of Obed, son of Boaz, son of Sala, F32 son of Nahshon, 33 son of Amminadab, son of Admin, son of Arni, F33 son of Hezron, son of Perez, son of Judah, 34 son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor, 35 son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Shelah, 36 son of Cainan, son of Arphaxad, son of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech, 37 son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan, 38 son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.
I believe the reason why Jesus could not be Joseph’s biological father is because Joseph is a descendant of Jeconiah, whom God had put a curse on considering the throne of David. In Jeremiah 22:30 we read that none of Jeconiah’s offspring would prosper sitting on the throne of David. This is why the conception of Jesus needed special intervention. As Joseph’s adopted son, he had legal right to the throne of David through being part of the Royal line of David’s descendents. However, because he was not of the blood of Joseph, Jeconiah’s curse would not apply. We also know that in order for Jesus to be the Messiah he must be of the blood line of David. I am convinced that Luke 3 gives us logical proof that Mary is of the David line.
We know that the genealogies given in Matthew and Luke are different and they each give Joseph as having a different father. There are some clues however which tell us that Matthew’s genealogy is of Joseph and Luke’s is of Mary. Matthew states that Jacob begat Joseph, while Luke states that Joseph was the son of Eli. Either there is major error in these two Gospels, or there is a simple answer that relates to understanding the Hebrew culture. A person who is said to be the SON of someone in the bible may be a grandson, a descendant of many generations, an adopted son, or a son in-law. It is most logical I believe, to understand that Jacob begetting Joseph means that he is his biological father, while the use of son in Luke is totally accurate wording for the relationship between Eli and Joseph as being in-laws. Moreover, because genealogies were given through the fathers, Joseph standing in for Mary when her genealogy was given, is understandable.
I don’t believe that Jesus had to be created in the way that he did, in order for him to be God’s Son. I believe that he was created this way in order for him to fill the prophesied requirements of the Messiah, which was for the Eternal King to be of the Royal line of David and to be of the ancestry of David.
I would like to admit for a moment that thanks to the conception thread, I have recently been researching the conception of Jesus, and this understanding of mine is very new. I believe that the bible says it is necessary for Jesus to be of the blood of David to inherit the throne. I feel that further research is necessary to feel confident that Jesus had to be accepted as part of the Royal line of David in order to be the Messiah. If anything, it should be noted that, at least to the Jews it would probably be necessary for Jesus to be of the Royal line in order for them to consider him to be their king. Just for clarity, Joseph was of the Royal l
ine through being the descendant of David’s son Solomon, where as Mary was of the blood line through David’s son Nathan. I also find it very interesting that in my NIV Archaeological bible it says that the book of Matthew was written for the Jewish audience, where as Luke was written mainly for the Greeks.Like I previously stated, I do not believe that it was in how Jesus was conceived, that made him God’s only begotten son. His special conception was a matter of Messiah fulfillment, where he needed to be of the Royal line without the blood of Joconiah (accomplished through being Josephs’ adopted son), but still carry the blood line of David (accomplished through being the biological son of Mary). I do believe that Jesus was special in the fact that God gave him all the fullness of the Holy Spirit, except of course eternal life, which was to come after his death. If Jesus was given some different CODE in his being, then he wouldn’t be like us, and he wouldn’t have been able to overcome and wash away our sins. As well, knowing he was fully like us, makes us believe that we can truly follow him. What we are to understand is that Jesus was given NEW INFORMATION within his mind. YHWH revealed the full truth of Himself and the full truth of His plan, concerning mankind, to Jesus. The reason why Jesus accomplished the goal of being our Messiah, our Savor is because he, through the plan and instruction of God overcame our enemy.
WOW! I like that. So God just made some human sperm that had NO SIN. Therefore the Son of Man. The only thing is that Adam was created BUT God also created Jesus through Mary.
Very Good And thanks for your research! Hi Gene,
Interesting idea that we can become “exactly like him [Jesus].” I do believe that when we are resurrected, we will be like him. I do not think it is possible to be “exactly” like him now. He is the Son of the Living God. While Jesus enjoys his sonship now, we wait for our adoption as sons and daughters.
If we are waiting for something that Christ already has – how can we become exactly like him? Unless of course you meant *after* the resurrection, but I don't believe you did. By taking away from Jesus' humanity (at all), you are stressing that we cannot follow him if we cannot be exactly like him. Did I get this correct?
We have the HOPE of eternal life – Jesus already has eternal life. Does that mean we cannot follow him? We have the HOPE of the spiritual body – Jesus is already enjoying his spiritual body. Does this mean we cannot follow him?
Not only is Jesus different from us in the present day (he is glorified, we are not), but while he walked the earth and brushed shoulders with us – he walked as the Messiah – the ONLY ONE who was/is the “Annointed.” Not only was his status different from ours, but he was also without sin; we are heaped in sin. But can we still follow him? Jesus was born of a virgin and while his DNA is still of some question, we can all agree that his earthly Father, Joseph, was an adoptive Father so that God Almighty was his true Father. Can we still follow him with all of these differences? Or does he have to be exactly like us before we can follow him?
Yes Nick what you said I believe is correct.
I like to look at it in this light as well-
Our brains are opens systems, which God gives information to as He sees fit to carry out His plan. I believe a New Creation was working in Jesus during his life here on earth, but he wasn’t complete until upon his resurrection. Before the fall, Adam and Eve sought a tree to give them knowledge, instead of knowing that all knowledge worth knowing comes from God. Adam and Eve walked with a will of ignorance. Jesus was able to see because of God’s work, that indeed all knowledge worth knowing can only come from God, and we must look to Him for all guidance if we are to be happy and fulfilled individuals. Jesus walked with a will full of the knowledge of God, and recognized that it is in mans best interest to share in God’s will. However, Jesus also walked, due to the punishment of death brought on by Adam, with a will drawn to a weak flesh. Though Jesus remained sinless, he did have to struggle against a will of flesh trying to tear him from God. Upon his resurrection, by being given immortality the weak flesh in Jesus was lifted, and he was a New Creation, where Jesus was in all the fullness With God, in heart, mind and body.
Quote (kenrch @ July 19 2007,11:19) WOW! I like that. So God just made some human sperm that had NO SIN.
Hi Ken,
It's called Superman Sperm!
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 19 2007,11:24) Quote (kenrch @ July 19 2007,11:19) WOW! I like that. So God just made some human sperm that had NO SIN.
Hi Ken,
It's called Superman Sperm!
So man's sperm has kryptionite (sin). A new word for sin
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