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Mr. Steve … where does it say he, Himself Know God before the foundations of the world.
Peter said he was preordained be fore the foundations of the world BUT was Manifested in OUR TIME. a preordination does not inply a preexistence, we were preordained also.Hi Gene,
Christ knew he was loved BEFORE the foundation of the worldJohn 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.Nick….>yes when Jesus came into existence in flesh he had the holy spirit on him and when he was baptised it went into him, thats why God said TODAY I have begotten you making him at that time the only begotten son but soon to follow would be more and they are all who have the Spirit of the Father in then they are also begotten of The Father isn't that why we cry abba Father because he is our Father too. and Jesus know who he was and what he was destined to do, just like John the babtist know who he was also
Nick…..we are all nonogenes, no one has your exact genes and no one has my either so in that sense we are all nonogenes and no one has Jesus exact dna either the Father gave us all different DNA but that is not refuring to (kind) when it cames to humans .
i tell you no one can see Jesus in a different light without seperating him from himself . this is what antichrist is all about it seperating Jesus from comming into existance as a flesh being. and this seperation goes all the way to making him another God and created the man of sin spoken of by the apolstle Paul in 2thes2 and John's description of the antichrist. it's not a real person it a false Image of Jesus being very God Himself. this creats a condition of Idolatry it's
making The Man Jesus into a prexisting God.Hi Gene,
Why does everyone see things in earthly terms? This is only the transient visible creation.
The Monogenes Son is a glorious heavenly being.
Even angels are descibed in these terms.Jude
” 8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. “2Peter 2
” 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.”
He was above and before the angels.
nick…. were does it say that he (WAS) above and before the angles. He now is, but where does say he was before he came and was raised from the grave. It also say;s that we shall judge angles also doesn't it. why cant you see Jesus just like we are and why give him an advantage he didn't have. you are lessing his sacrifice when you seperate his likeness from us in any way. He was the perfect man not the perfect nonogenes. He is exactly what the Father expects from us, and that is to be a perfect Image of GOD the Father, now I did not say be God The Father as the lying trinitarians try to say. you seam caught up in the term nonogenes as if that changes Jesus' likeness from us. any seperation of Jesus from our flesh existence in simply not true. He was pure flesh and blood and was filled with God's spirit as others have been also. if were are different why did he say greater things than he did we could do. obeviousely it was because he didn't do them it was God who indwelled him who did the mericals and he was telling us we could have God perform mericals in our lives also. and it could be greater then those God performed through him also.
why seperate Jesus likeness from yourself.All peoples, how do you answer these verses
Jhn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2007,11:50) nick…. were does it say that he (WAS) above and before the angles. He now is, but where does say he was before he came and was raised from the grave. It also say;s that we shall judge angles also doesn't it. why cant you see Jesus just like we are and why give him an advantage he didn't have. you are lessing his sacrifice when you seperate his likeness from us in any way. He was the perfect man not the perfect nonogenes. He is exactly what the Father expects from us, and that is to be a perfect Image of GOD the Father, now I did not say be God The Father as the lying trinitarians try to say. you seam caught up in the term nonogenes as if that changes Jesus' likeness from us. any seperation of Jesus from our flesh existence in simply not true. He was pure flesh and blood and was filled with God's spirit as others have been also. if were are different why did he say greater things than he did we could do. obeviousely it was because he didn't do them it was God who indwelled him who did the mericals and he was telling us we could have God perform mericals in our lives also. and it could be greater then those God performed through him also.
why seperate Jesus likeness from yourself.
Hi Gene,
Christ was like to all of us.
His origins are another matter.I see two major problems with the idea that Jesus pre-existed
#1.If Jesus came to earth after pre-existing, only to loose all knowledge and have no advantage, what purpose did it serve God and man to have him pre-exist? Jesus became savior of mankind by being perfected as a human, through God, therefore a pre-existent son hold’s no purpose to God’s plans for mankind on earth.
#2. If the bible teaches anything, I believe it is that it takes an effort, a sophisticated plan for God to create righteous sons and daughters. We know that Jesus grew in wisdom and overcame the world and was perfected through suffering while on earth. What are we to believe about this pre-existent Son of God, what form did he have, how was he perfected, was he eternal?The scriptures used for proof of pre-existence, I believe are being misinterpreted. The light in which I read these scriptures create a clear picture of God and His plan with everything serving a purpose. The pre-existent interpretation to me only seems to create confusion, and raise serious questions about who and what Jesus is, which mind you, the bible then does not answer, as well lets not forget that the interpretation seems to be lacking purpose.
According to the bible, Jesus the Messiah was and is still, a MAN. The bible never says he pre-existed as something else and then became a man. It certainly does not say that he then returned to his former self, after the resurrection.
2 Samuel 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me.
If Jesus pre-existed wouldn’t God have said something more like -I will send my Son and he will be made flesh for your sake
If Jesus already existed as God’s son, then he wouldn’t need to become His son, now would he?
John 1:6 -There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
The word SENT does not in anyway mean that the person came from somewhere previous.
If you have a plan and that plan involves certain people doing certain things at a certain time, when that time comes you are sending that plan into action.
In the beginning of our God creating earth, His plan was to create a righteous Family. We can see through nature by things such as, the structure of the universe, DNA and photosynthesis, that our God is a creator of intricate working systems. The Family, which He is longsuffering to create, is no exception in the realm of our God’s created complex systems. His purpose we know for creating this family is to share love. Love however is not a product of material, but rather it is something that must be developed within our spirit. Love requires a relationship BUILT on trust, therefore to make The Family perfect, takes more effort then anything else our God has created on earth. Our God speaks and things are instantly created, and work perfectly no less. There is one exception I believe to God’s power of instantaneous perfection however, and that is the FreeWill mind. God cannot speak and create a Perfect Family, no less a perfect free will individual. I believe the whole of the bible teaches us this very thing. Through instruction and discipline over an amount of time is the free will mind perfected. It was not that YHWH knew that mankind would sin, and need a savior, it was that He knew it would take time to create the first perfect man, who thus would then lead the way for all mankind to become perfected, thus earning the name Savior.
YHWH revealed the full truth of Himself and the full truth of His plan, concerning mankind, to Jesus. The reason why Jesus accomplished the goal of being our Messiah, our Savor is because he, through the plan and instruction of God, overcame our enemy. Jesus fought off the human nature of sin through the things which God gave Him. #1-God brought him into the world when certain things had been fulfilled, meaning, God set before Jesus a long history of man failing at his own will, thus showing Jesus that mankind needs help. #2-God showed Jesus His perfect way, thus giving Jesus the understanding that following God is just the help mankind desperately needs. A little note here- following God’s way not only consists of being of God’s character with love, patience, kindness, etc, but it involves much more then that. We are not to merely follow God because he is our superior, but because His WAY was specially designed for us, by Him. #3 God shared with Jesus some of His powers, illustrating to him how much greater He truly is, compared to man. God giving Jesus the ability to heal and perform miracles, sealed the deal. Jesus could feel God’s power firsthand and truly believe in His abilities to lead us into great things. The knowledge Jesus attained through the history of the world and the information and power given to him by the Holy Spirit, built up so much love, respect and trust for Jesus in God, that it over powered his sinful flesh, allowing him to fully follow God.
We all dream of a utopian society, and it is our confidence in YHWH that He will indeed establish earth to be a Paradise. Not only will there be peace and eternal life, but also the Family will be so well structured that EVERYONE has a special role, a special talent, given to them by YHWH, where everyone feels a sense of purpose, acceptance and accomplishment. Oh how truly glorious God’s earthly Family will be, topping other complex systems He has created! Before the Perfect Family however, comes the perfected man. Jesus became that person, leading the way for all.
Hi Jodi and welcome,
You say
“Through instruction and discipline over an amount of time is the free will mind perfected. It was not that YHWH knew that mankind would sin, and need a savior, it was that He knew it would take time to create the first perfect man, who thus would then lead the way for all mankind to become perfected, thus earning the name Savior.”So it was his own effort and powers that enabled him to be perfect?
Jodi,
Huh? Are you saying YHWH's power is limited? Scripture please.
You'll find out we like scriptural proof here
.Hi Jodi,
Forgive me if this was dicussed already but…
What did Jesus mean when he said: “No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man…?”
Sincerely
Bibli,
I'm interesting in that verse too. We never really read where Yeshua descended from Heaven? Of course, as the plan of God, he certainly came down if you want to use that as support. I do find these two verses slightly eyebrow raising though
Jhn 3:13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Jhn 1:32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
Odd, huh?
Oh, and I forgot these
Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
Jhn 1:14 And the Word [logos] became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
From Strong's
logos – from legw – lego 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):–account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
Again, odd.
Just a thought and an inspired one:
The Spirit is the power of Elohim.
The Spirit is our means of communicating with Elohim.
The Spirit was the Word, and was made flesh.
The Spirit is the knowledge of Elohim.
Through His Spirit all things were made.Over and over we see the Spirit of Elohim is who He is.
We know that the Father gave all to His Son Y'shua.
Why is it so hard then to understand that Y'shua knew His Father before He came as flesh, since He was given to know all things. We need to understand ALL here. Once He was given to know all things, from that point on He can say, I was there from the beginning, or I knew my Father before I became flesh. He can say He decended from the heavens because He did, that is where creation began.I myself can say I knew Y'shua Messiah before He became flesh, but only because I read about Him in the Torah and the prophets and have the knowledge of the Spirit in me.
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