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Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41) There is one true God, but two gods that have the nature of a god and those two gods make up one Godhead together with the Holy Spirit (inner person) of the one true God. One is greater than the other but the other is greater than everything else. So, see how we have two that are greater than everything and only two with the original nature as deity? Neither one of them could be equal to anything that might be “called” deity who don't actually have a deity nature as their original nature.
There is one who is identified as God (the true God) that is the Father. There are many who are called theos, for qualitative reasons.Trinitarians cannot grasp this. It is as if they are blinded to this or perhaps they are just stubborn and ignore it. Either way, they reject what scripture says, that there is one true God the Father and that there are others under God who are called theos and elohim for one reason or another.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41) I realize that believers will be partakers of the divine nature but the Son of God always had it and that is a huge difference
Correct. He has first place in all things and we are being conformed into his image. We may not know exactly what we will be like, but we will be like him. So yes, he was first. He is also called the prototype son in scripture.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,17:41) Quote (Ed J @ April 03 2010,00:45) Hi WJ, Typical, you would rather spend your efforts telling someone they are 'wrong' than give an answer to a question?
EDThis is a lie and you know it. Why don't you respond to Marty about all the questions I left him that went unanswered in the debates thread?
Look, you often point to a link of a post that you have already answered.
Why are you insistant on harrasing me?
I have a lot of post to respond to because we, Jack and I are out numbered and have a life ouside of HN. So why do you find fault in what I do?
The answer to Martys question is where I pointed him to.
WJ
WJi thought you never call other of lying???
you lied
Quote (t8 @ April 05 2010,01:40) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41) There is one true God, but two gods that have the nature of a god and those two gods make up one Godhead together with the Holy Spirit (inner person) of the one true God. One is greater than the other but the other is greater than everything else. So, see how we have two that are greater than everything and only two with the original nature as deity? Neither one of them could be equal to anything that might be “called” deity who don't actually have a deity nature as their original nature.
There is one who is identified as God (the true God) that is the Father. There are many who are called theos, for qualitative reasons.Trinitarians cannot grasp this. It is as if they are blinded to this or perhaps they are just stubborn and ignore it. Either way, they reject what scripture says, that there is one true God the Father and that there are others under God who are called theos and elohim for one reason or another.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41) I realize that believers will be partakers of the divine nature but the Son of God always had it and that is a huge difference
Correct. He has first place in all things and we are being conformed into his image. We may not know exactly what we will be like, but we will be like him. So yes, he was first. He is also called the prototype son in scripture.
Thanks t8,Can you also see how the Father and the Son are together the God of Israel…the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm are portrayed as the one God of Israel?
Quote Deut 4:34-39
34 “Or has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within another nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
36 “Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
37 “Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power,
38 driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today.
39 “Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
NASUQuote Isa 52:10-53:5
10 The Lord has bared His holy arm In the sight of all the nations, That all the ends of the earth may see The salvation of our God.Is 53:1-5 1Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
NASUQuote John 12:34-43
34 The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?”
35 So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.” These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
NASUQuote (terraricca @ April 05 2010,09:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,17:41) Quote (Ed J @ April 03 2010,00:45) Hi WJ, Typical, you would rather spend your efforts telling someone they are 'wrong' than give an answer to a question?
EDThis is a lie and you know it. Why don't you respond to Marty about all the questions I left him that went unanswered in the debates thread?
Look, you often point to a link of a post that you have already answered.
Why are you insistant on harrasing me?
I have a lot of post to respond to because we, Jack and I are out numbered and have a life ouside of HN. So why do you find fault in what I do?
The answer to Martys question is where I pointed him to.
WJ
WJi thought you never call other of lying???
you lied
TI have never said I wouldn't call someone who is lying a liar.
I have said that just because I disagree with you or your doctrine I would not judge you as a liar as many here do!
WJ
t8 said:
Quote There are many who are called theos, for qualitative reasons.
Pure, unadulterated polytheism!thinker
Quote (t8 @ April 03 2010,20:52) Quote (Elizabeth @ April 02 2010,07:52) Well, I do believe that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father before the world was.
By Jesus own words in
John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me….
Col.1:15 He is the firstborn of all creation…..
Col. 1:18 He also is the firstborn of the death that in all things He may have preeminence….and more. See my previous post to Marty….
Peace and Love Irene
Oh yeah, I realise that there are others here such as yourself that believe that the true God is the Father and that he sent his son into the world. That the son as the Word was with God in the beginning and emptied himself and took on human nature and was born as one of us.This great work means that we now can become one of him (so to speak).
TO ALL,Please note t8's disclaimer. He says that we can become God “so to speak.” Translated this means that we cannot become God. But t8 cannot come right out and say it.
thinker
TT,
I think he said '…become one of him…'If T8 believes that Jesus is NOT God then what you suggest is not what T8 means.
It is true in your line of thought but not in the line of thought of the one who made the statement.
There is a name for people who change the meaning of other peoples statements in order to deceive others!
Quote (thethinker @ April 05 2010,15:51) t8 said: Quote There are many who are called theos, for qualitative reasons.
Pure, unadulterated polytheism!thinker
JackAmen!
Yet they cannot give any Apostolic examples of any followers of Jesus referring to any other as being their “god” other than “The God”, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”!
All others are referred to by Apostolic authority as being “so-called gods” and not gods at all but merely made up in the carnal minds of ungodly men.
Even satan is a mere worm to the believer. He is only a usurper at this time over the lives of unbelievers and some day men will see that he is no god at all!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,08:18) Quote (thethinker @ April 05 2010,15:51) t8 said: Quote There are many who are called theos, for qualitative reasons.
Pure, unadulterated polytheism!thinker
JackAmen!
Yet they cannot give any Apostolic examples of any followers of Jesus referring to any other as being their “god” other than “The God”, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”!
All others are referred to by Apostolic authority as being “so-called gods” and not gods at all but merely made up in the carnal minds of ungodly men.
Even satan is a mere worm to the believer. He is only a usurper at this time over the lives of unbelievers and some day men will see that he is no god at all!
Blessings WJ
That's right, There are no examples that I am aware of Christians calling other people God. OF COURSE WE ARE NOT GOING TO CONSIDER THAT JESUS HIMSELF CALLED THE LEADERS OF ISRAEL GODS WHEN QUOTING PSALMS 82.
We are not going to consider the Hebrew culture that specifically calls a manifestation of God (any manifestation) God. Abraham called the burning bush god and interacted with it as if it were literally God.Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. You would think that Christ calling someone God would carry ten times the weight of Thomas. I do not see them adding the leaders of Israel to the Godhead.
As my Grandfather used to say, “They are full of Malarky.”Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods.
This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“Thats because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrosy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is refering to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsly interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism!
WJ
Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,17:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,08:18) Quote (thethinker @ April 05 2010,15:51) t8 said: Quote There are many who are called theos, for qualitative reasons.
Pure, unadulterated polytheism!thinker
JackAmen!
Yet they cannot give any Apostolic examples of any followers of Jesus referring to any other as being their “god” other than “The God”, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”!
All others are referred to by Apostolic authority as being “so-called gods” and not gods at all but merely made up in the carnal minds of ungodly men.
Even satan is a mere worm to the believer. He is only a usurper at this time over the lives of unbelievers and some day men will see that he is no god at all!
Blessings WJ
That's right, There are no examples that I am aware of Christians calling other people God. OF COURSE WE ARE NOT GOING TO CONSIDER THAT JESUS HIMSELF CALLED THE LEADERS OF ISRAEL GODS WHEN QUOTING PSALMS 82.
We are not going to consider the Hebrew culture that specifically calls a manifestation of God (any manifestation) God. Abraham called the burning bush god and interacted with it as if it were literally God.
Another Polytheist!WJ
Quote (martian @ April 06 2010,10:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. You would think that Christ calling someone God would carry ten times the weight of Thomas. I do not see them adding the leaders of Israel to the Godhead.
As my Grandfather used to say, “They are full of Malarky.”
Martian,First, the term “gods” in reference to Israel simply meant “rulers or “magistrates” They were the administrators of the old coveant who were disobedient.
Second, Thomas explicitly addressed Jesus himself when he said, “My Lord and my God.” This would have been a violation of the Shema if Jesus was not God.
Third, your spaceship is fuled and ready for you to go back home
thinker
Hi All
Some here claim that they interpret scriptures by Hebrew thought Etc, yet at the same time in order to support their own false doctrines they even misquote our Lord Jesus and make it look like he did not know the scriptures.
For instance in John 10 they believe that Jesus is promoting Polytheism and that it would be alright to call someone else their God when in fact that is a lie.
YHWH clearly states…
That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; “neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them: Josh 23:7
Now if Jesus statement was meaning that these wicked kings and Judges in John 10 or Pss 82 were gods, then he would be breaking the commandment that he was to not mention the name of other gods. So then what does Pss 82 mean, it means that men saw them as gods but they were not gods at all and to believe such was to believe in Polytheism and to speak of them as gods was braking the commandment. The Psalmist says they will die like men because they were men.
Now if that isn't enough for those who believe there is any such thing as “a god” other than YHWH then here is another scripture that cannot be twisted to mean anything but what it says…
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME“. Isa 43:10
So has YHWH made any gods? Absolutely not, the gods that are formed or made are by men and their carnal minds.
Now the question is what these unbelievers do with Jesus when he is not only called God but who is called their own God with the definite article?
Thomas would have been committing pure blasphemy and Jesus and John were taking part for not correcting him and his words if Jesus were not his Lord and his God.
What do others say about this?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods.
This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“Thats because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrosy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is refering to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsly interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism!
WJ
Hi WJ:And so, they were men and not gods? Is Jesus a man?
Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods.
This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“Thats because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrosy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is refering to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsly interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism!
WJ
Hi WJ:And so, they were men and not gods? Is Jesus a man?
Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyScriptures calls Jesus both. So should you!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods.
This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“Thats because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrosy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is refering to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsly interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism!
WJ
Hi WJ:And so, they were men and not gods? Is Jesus a man?
Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyScriptures calls Jesus both. So should you!
WJ
Hi WJ:The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God. What will it take to convince you? If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth.
He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God.
And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods.
This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“Thats because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrosy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is refering to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsly interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism!
WJ
Hi WJ:And so, they were men and not gods? Is Jesus a man?
Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyScriptures calls Jesus both. So should you!
WJ
Hi WJ:The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God. What will it take to convince you? If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth.
He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God.
And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyYour statement is circular because the Apostles call Jesus their Lord and God.
My confession is according to the scriptures. So continue accusations that I have stopped my ears but in fact it is you that has refused to call Jesus what the Apostles called him.
When you can show me the scirptures do not call Jesus God then you have a case otherwise you are simply blowing in the wind!
The Revelation Jesus is the “Only Son of God” was given by the Father and the Apostles knew what that meant.
If it was what you think it means then it is no revelation at all for it would have been a common statement.
The devils knew who he was and it took revelation from the Father to see that he is the “Only Son of God” and that was not a common term.
WJ
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