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Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,10:59) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,10:23) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,09:56) Hi Mrs: You say to terriacca:
Quote The Word is not the Fathers Word. It is Jesus. Mrs. you are trying to force us to believe what you have apparently misunderstood. The above statement proves it.
When the scriptures state, “The Word was made flesh”, they are speaking of the prophetic Word of God pertaining to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
I am not going to argue with you. I already know what you believe, and if you want to go on believing that Jesus pre-existed go right ahead, but quit trying to force me to believe and understand the scriptures the way that you do. I do not. I believe that he was fore-ordained not that he pre-existed.
And he is at the right hand of the Father still as a man but with a spiritual body. No blood in this body.
Here is what the scripture states:
Quote 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; The scripture states that the mediator is a man, and that the man is Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyIrene should know that i believe in the preexistence of Jesus,
my quotes testify to that,
what you say is true about Jesus but that does not eliminate that he was beside God before being or becoming Jesus.
and this for multi reasons.
Hi T and Mrs.I do not believe that he pre-exissted but that he was fore-ordained.
Although, I am having to do a double take on Colossians 1:15 because of the words “first born of every creature”. I said first in rank because Strong's Concordance does not have a clear definition for “firstborn”, but one of the root words suggest that it is first in rank.
But the transliteration of that scripture from the Greek interlinear is THE BEFORE-most-BROUGHT FORTH OF EVERY CREATION.
I am not a Greek scholar and so I can say for a fact that the word “firstborn” is a mistranslation, but I believe that in order for this to be consistent with other scripture, it would probably mean fore-ordained before all of creation. The following scriptures tell us why this is indicated in that it says:
Quote 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And,
Quote 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
I may be wrong but I can only believe that he was fore-ordained to be brought forth into the world by the express action of God at the particular point in time that he was conceived fo the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary.
Anyway, I am in prayer asking God to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will, and will gladly accept my correction if He shows me that I am wrong. I do not want to teach anything that is not His Word.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyGreek,hebrew as nothing to do with it,
God s will as something to do with it.
wen Adam sin ,God as put everything in place to bring all things back to him so that all things can be in him and perfect.
no children were born to Adam that this was decided already.
there was no men ever could pay the ransom,and there is no man who could receive more glory than angels unless it is trough an other angel.
in heaven the rule is love,the love of god is being useful to others,you want to be the greatest you have to serve the most.
Christ accomplish this by given up his live for all creation,
by becoming flesh.it is trough his glory that the other righteous men received their glory.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,12:05) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,10:59) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,10:23) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,09:56) Hi Mrs: You say to terriacca:
Quote The Word is not the Fathers Word. It is Jesus. Mrs. you are trying to force us to believe what you have apparently misunderstood. The above statement proves it.
When the scriptures state, “The Word was made flesh”, they are speaking of the prophetic Word of God pertaining to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
I am not going to argue with you. I already know what you believe, and if you want to go on believing that Jesus pre-existed go right ahead, but quit trying to force me to believe and understand the scriptures the way that you do. I do not. I believe that he was fore-ordained not that he pre-existed.
And he is at the right hand of the Father still as a man but with a spiritual body. No blood in this body.
Here is what the scripture states:
Quote 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; The scripture states that the mediator is a man, and that the man is Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyIrene should know that i believe in the preexistence of Jesus,
my quotes testify to that,
what you say is true about Jesus but that does not eliminate that he was beside God before being or becoming Jesus.
and this for multi reasons.
Hi T and Mrs.I do not believe that he pre-exissted but that he was fore-ordained.
Although, I am having to do a double take on Colossians 1:15 because of the words “first born of every creature”. I said first in rank because Strong's Concordance does not have a clear definition for “firstborn”, but one of the root words suggest that it is first in rank.
But the transliteration of that scripture from the Greek interlinear is THE BEFORE-most-BROUGHT FORTH OF EVERY CREATION.
I am not a Greek scholar and so I can say for a fact that the word “firstborn” is a mistranslation, but I believe that in order for this to be consistent with other scripture, it would probably mean fore-ordained before all of creation. The following scriptures tell us why this is indicated in that it says:
Quote 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And,
Quote 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
I may be wrong but I can only believe that he was fore-ordained to be brought forth into the world by the express action of God at the particular point in time that he was conceived fo the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary.
Anyway, I am in prayer asking God to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will, and will gladly accept my correction if He shows me that I am wrong. I do not want to teach anything that is not His Word.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyGreek,hebrew as nothing to do with it,
God s will as something to do with it.
wen Adam sin ,God as put everything in place to bring all things back to him so that all things can be in him and perfect.
no children were born to Adam that this was decided already.
there was no men ever could pay the ransom,and there is no man who could receive more glory than angels unless it is trough an other angel.
in heaven the rule is love,the love of god is being useful to others,you want to be the greatest you have to serve the most.
Christ accomplish this by given up his live for all creation,
by becoming flesh.it is trough his glory that the other righteous men received their glory.
Hi T:What you are saying that God had forseen that he would bring forth a Son for the redemption of the World from the beginning, and I agree with this, but this indicates that he was fore-ordained not that he pre-existed as a sentient person.
The scriptures are clear that the way he became flesh is when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
I believe that the important thing is that I know that he exists now and he gave his life for me so that I might have the priviledge and honor of being a son of the Most High God.
He did not tell us to go and preach that he pre-existed, but he told us to go and preach the gospel so that man could be saved.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi:
I am still studying and trying to understand Colossians 1:15, and specifically searching of the meaning of “the firstborn of every creature”.
Hebrews 1:6 reads as follows:
Quote Hebrews 1:6 (King James Version) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The same Greek word translated as “firstborn” in Colossians 1:15 is translated as “firstbegotten” in this scripture.
Obviously, Jesus is God's firstbegotten Son, and we are also begotten of God, being born of his Spirit.
Quote John 1:10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: 11to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten
.And so, he is the firstborn or firstbegotten of God of every man or creature.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,14:15) Hi: I am still studying and trying to understand Colossians 1:15, and specifically searching of the meaning of “the firstborn of every creature”.
Hebrews 1:6 reads as follows:
Quote Hebrews 1:6 (King James Version) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The same Greek word translated as “firstborn” in Colossians 1:15 is translated as “firstbegotten” in this scripture.
Obviously, Jesus is God's firstbegotten Son, and we are also begotten of God, being born of his Spirit.
Quote John 1:10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: 11to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten
.And so, he is the firstborn or firstbegotten of God of every man or creature.
Love in Christ,
Marty
94.
this is clear;Jn 3:31 “The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all(Jesus)Jn 8:23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every nameI have quoted more scriptures but you ignored them so there will be no use to show you more.
Terraricca,
You are missing the boat on John 3:28 as anyone who lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit comes from above and anyone who lives according to the ways of the Spirit of mankind is from below.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,18:02) Terraricca, You are missing the boat on John 3:28 as anyone who lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit comes from above and anyone who lives according to the ways of the Spirit of mankind is from below.
kerwin! There are other Scriptures that tell us that Jesus came down from Heaven. I have a bunch of Scriptures that proves that Jesus preexisted His Birth as a Human Being. He was first Spirit Being in Heaven. The firstborn of all creation. To that state He went back to,after His death and resurrection. I will give you all these Scriptures. It is you who has to prove whether they are true or false. Here they are. I am starting with the most talked about.
John 1:1and verse 14
with this goes
Rev. 19:13and 16
John 3:17
and verses 12-15
John 6:38-40
John 8:58
And my Favorite
John 17:5
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
Now if you still deny these, you are calling Jesus a liar….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,18:02) Terraricca, You are missing the boat on John 3:28 as anyone who lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit comes from above and anyone who lives according to the ways of the Spirit of mankind is from below.
KWare you also above “all” i don't think so.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,21:23) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,18:02) Terraricca, You are missing the boat on John 3:28 as anyone who lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit comes from above and anyone who lives according to the ways of the Spirit of mankind is from below.
KWare you also above “all” i don't think so.
I am not the One that God installed as king of everything in heaven and on earth and that after the One was made perfect by his life and suffering even unto death. Hebrews 5:7-10Irene.
Scripture tells us that all good things come from above and therefore what I stated is true. My words also are in agreement with the words Jesus used as well as his teachings.
Look at Colossians 3:2 and consider that those who live according to the corrupt spirit of man have their minds on the things of the flesh while those that live according to the spirit of righteousness have their minds on the things of God who is above.
He was simply rebuking his hearers for thinking according to the flesh and not according to the spirit.
Be careful not to make that same error.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2010,05:13) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,21:23) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,18:02) Terraricca, You are missing the boat on John 3:28 as anyone who lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit comes from above and anyone who lives according to the ways of the Spirit of mankind is from below.
KWare you also above “all” i don't think so.
I am not the One that God installed as king of everything in heaven and on earth and that after the One was made perfect by his life and suffering even unto death. Hebrews 5:7-10
kerwin I guess you don't want to know the truth, do you? I have given you Scriptures that is so clear that a child can understand. Jesus said I have come down from Heaven to do the will of my Father, and not my will. When I say to a child I come from Germany, I think He or She would understand, yet you deny and deny, why?
Take John 1:1 and verse 14 and then take
Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is he Word of God.
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name is written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Can this be any clearer. It is Jesus in John 1:1 were so many want to make Him not real. All kinds of explanations, which are false…
John 6:38
“For I have come down from Heaven not to do My own will, but the will of Him who send Me.
verse 39 “This is the will of My Father WHO SEND ME, for of all that He has given Me, I should lose nothing.
John 3:17 :For God did not SEND HIS SON into the world to …..
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
Tell me something kerwin, do you know what Christ Jesus is now? He is a Spirit being, a glorified Body, and that is what Jesus said He was before the world was. Are you now calling Jesus a liar? Most of these Scriptures is Jesus talking…..
You ignored my previous Post are you going to do that again? Or are you finally going to say, yes He was in Heaven with the Father before the world was. That is what Scriptures is saying…. Or are you again denying them…
IreneQuote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2010,05:13) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,21:23) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,18:02) Terraricca, You are missing the boat on John 3:28 as anyone who lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit comes from above and anyone who lives according to the ways of the Spirit of mankind is from below.
KWare you also above “all” i don't think so.
I am not the One that God installed as king of everything in heaven and on earth and that after the One was made perfect by his life and suffering even unto death. Hebrews 5:7-10
KWyou are missing your own point,
first you tel me that i miss the boat,wen i answer you back related to Jn 3;28 you go to an another topic with Heb 5;7-10wen i never quoted Jn 3;28 but John 3;31
what are you trying to do
?or show it looks devious
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2010,05:25) Irene. Scripture tells us that all good things come from above and therefore what I stated is true. My words also are in agreement with the words Jesus used as well as his teachings.
Look at Colossians 3:2 and consider that those who live according to the corrupt spirit of man have their minds on the things of the flesh while those that live according to the spirit of righteousness have their minds on the things of God who is above.
He was simply rebuking his hearers for thinking according to the flesh and not according to the spirit.
Be careful not to make that same error.
kerwin to say that I don't set my mind above to God? Are you kidding me??? I have given you Scriptures that talk about Heaven and who is in Heaven and came from Heaven, Jesus Christ our KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. You want to make a mere man out of Him, which He never was. He emptied Himself to a point that He became a servant. Phil 2:5-7
Then to quote Col. 3:2 is so stupid, to say the least…..All I have been doing is talking about what Jesus is saying…
Do you know what I think who says something like that to a fellow Christian, He or She does not have God's Holy Spirit, because they cannot even understand what Jesus is saying…
I did not even put down Col. 1:15-18 and Rev. 3:14 all very good Scriptures. Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death, so that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.
Irene.Hi people,
I just started reading this topic and by sheer coincident it is what I was looking into today!My opinion is that Jesus was preExistent as the 'Word of God', meaning that he carried out, perfectly and exactly, that which God spoke.
He was God's perfect Servant who was 'hidden in the shadow of [God's] hand…'(Isaiah 49:2)
It is written in Isaiah 46:16: '…From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit has sent me.(Note that God and His [Holy] Spirit are 'one' – the Spirit is not a separate being!)
God,(imo), did not reveal his Servant to the Hebews/Jews because they would have started to worship the Servant as a God.
In the fullness of time, God called His Servant to 'empty' himself of his divine nature ('Divine' meaning a Heavenly Spirit creature) and take on the nature of earthly Man, albeit, a perfect, sinless man, to fulfill all that God purposed from the beginning.
And after it was wonderfully accomplished, God received his Servant, now known as the 'Begotten Son of God' because he was anointed with God's Holy Spirit at his baptism (It is an interesting theme in that Saul was anointed first and then sinned and then David was anointed and walked with God. Is it not written that 'Lucifer' was a perfect anointed Cherub but then sinned and then Jesus was anointed and walked with God!)
Is there any mileage in the fact that there is only a very limited amount of information concerning the nature of Jesus and his activities 'before' coming into the world because it is could lead to exactly what Trinitarians are doing, today, revering Jesus as a PreExistent God?
The last thing is that it [maybe] doesn't matter whether Jesus was preExistent or merely 'in God's plan', for the Scriptures state that 'every spirit [of man] that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the Flesh is of God…'(1 John 4:2)
Addendum:
God received Jesus back to Heaven and 'raised him to a level above that which he left' (If Jesus was/is God, as Trini's state, how could he be eaised to a 'higher' position than that of God Almighty? But that's a different topic!!)Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 20 2010,06:45) Addendum:
God received Jesus back to Heaven and 'raised him to a level above that which he left' (If Jesus was/is God, as Trini's state, how could he be eaised to a 'higher' position than that of God Almighty? But that's a different topic!!)
God did receive Jesus back into Heaven and with that I agree, but there is no trinity. The Spirit is the Fathers Spirit and not another person. The trinity is three persons in one. Coming out of the Catholic Church unfortunately I taught all of our 4 Children the trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine and not of God. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who first came up with it. He was born to Pagan Parents and it was Constantine that issued an edit. After three centuries of brutal and bloody persecutions, the Christians under Constantine, were able to practice their religion.
There are very good Scriptures that tell us that God is above all. Ephesians 4:6
Jesus is our Mediator between God and us.
1 Corinth.9:4 but that there is none other God but one.”Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was showed that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God there is none else beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 :Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, He is one LORD.
Notice that LORD is in all capital letters, showing that it is the Father God.
I know that there are other Scriptures, however I did not have to prove that doctrine for a long time and I will have to search for some more to show you if I have to. if this is not good enough…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 20 2010,07:32) Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 20 2010,06:45) Addendum:
God received Jesus back to Heaven and 'raised him to a level above that which he left' (If Jesus was/is God, as Trini's state, how could he be eaised to a 'higher' position than that of God Almighty? But that's a different topic!!)
God did receive Jesus back into Heaven and with that I agree, but there is no trinity. The Spirit is the Fathers Spirit and not another person. The trinity is three persons in one. Coming out of the Catholic Church unfortunately I taught all of our 4 Children the trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine and not of God. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who first came up with it. He was born to Pagan Parents and it was Constantine that issued an edit. After three centuries of brutal and bloody persecutions, the Christians under Constantine, were able to practice their religion.
There are very good Scriptures that tell us that God is above all. Ephesians 4:6
Jesus is our Mediator between God and us.
1 Corinth.9:4 but that there is none other God but one.”Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was showed that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God there is none else beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 :Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, He is one LORD.
Notice that LORD is in all capital letters, showing that it is the Father God.
I know that there are other Scriptures, however I did not have to prove that doctrine for a long time and I will have to search for some more to show you if I have to. if this is not good enough…
Peace and Love Irene
Irenewhat Justaskin says is that Jesus was raised to a higher position ,and if he would be god how could he be raised to that position being god
he does not believe in the trinity.
Hi Terra,
Thanks for your clarification. I was wondering who Irene was pointing the comment at because there is not one bit of what I wrote that suggests a trinity, in fact, it is explicitly non-trinity.
Just goes to show how easy its for one to mis-read the obvious.
Sorry, Irene, I don't believe in the trinity, never have, never will, have you seen my posts and rantings with WJ and TT (I doubt you could have missed them!)
Irene wrote:
Quote to say that I don't set my mind above to God?
To have your mind set above is to think in ways of achieving the prize which all true servants of God strive and that is to do all he commands. I leave you to judge your own self on these matter though I warn you if I believe you stray. That is each of our duties to God and to one another as is the reverse.
Jesus often coached his language in riddles so that we would learn to decipher it by learning to think as God thinks and not as man is prone to think. Learning is a process which is sometimes slow and sometimes quick so patience is required on our end and God’s and we know God is patient.
Some of the Jews that Jesus was rebuking thought he was going to commit suicide because of how he worded what he stated. It seems clear he was rebuking that interpretation of his words which was based on the desires of the corrupt nature of man and not on the desires of the spirit of holiness. We need to strive to avoid such interpretations.
Why do you want Jesus to be other than a human being like you? I asked the question for your benefit and not my own so I need no answer to it.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,17:05) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,14:15) Hi: I am still studying and trying to understand Colossians 1:15, and specifically searching of the meaning of “the firstborn of every creature”.
Hebrews 1:6 reads as follows:
Quote Hebrews 1:6 (King James Version) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The same Greek word translated as “firstborn” in Colossians 1:15 is translated as “firstbegotten” in this scripture.
Obviously, Jesus is God's firstbegotten Son, and we are also begotten of God, being born of his Spirit.
Quote John 1:10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: 11to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten
.And so, he is the firstborn or firstbegotten of God of every man or creature.
Love in Christ,
Marty
94.
this is clear;Jn 3:31 “The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all(Jesus)Jn 8:23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every nameI have quoted more scriptures but you ignored them so there will be no use to show you more.
Hi T:And so, what is your point. I know that he came from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and the Word of God that he obeyed unto death on the cross also came from heaven. The scriptures states that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. And Hebrews 1:2 states that God has spoken to humanity by the prophets in the former days and in these last days He has spoken to humanity through His Son. God's throne is in heaven, and by His Spirit which comes from Him out His throne in heaven.
And yes, Jesus has been exalted to the right hand of God as head of the church. God has given him athority over all of humanity, and so, yes he is above all except God. But he has also said that we are born again are also not of this world. We are in the world, but we are not of this world.
And so, I know the scriptures that you quoted and probably the ones that you haven't shown me yet. I have studied the scriptures for 30 years, and I am not saying this because I think I know it all, but because of the arrogance that I sense in you when you address me with the attitude that you know it all.
Quote 1 Corinthians 8:2
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to knowLove in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 20 2010,05:49) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2010,05:13) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,21:23) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,18:02) Terraricca, You are missing the boat on John 3:28 as anyone who lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit comes from above and anyone who lives according to the ways of the Spirit of mankind is from below.
KWare you also above “all” i don't think so.
I am not the One that God installed as king of everything in heaven and on earth and that after the One was made perfect by his life and suffering even unto death. Hebrews 5:7-10
KWyou are missing your own point,
first you tel me that i miss the boat,wen i answer you back related to Jn 3;28 you go to an another topic with Heb 5;7-10wen i never quoted Jn 3;28 but John 3;31
what are you trying to do
?or show it looks devious
KWit seems you do not look to answer me on this one why ??
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