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Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,18:14) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 08 2010,10:09) Quote So what are you saying, the Holy Spirit is a literal Dove? If he was not in the form of a dove then how did the witnesses know he was “Like a dove”? Again, it does NOT say it took on the “FORM” of a “DOVE”.
It states “he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove”.
This air, breath, wind [pneuma], descended AS A “dove” would descend, does not say it is a dove.
Your teaching something that is not there.
LUKE 3:22” And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
WJ,
I think Con reads a different Bible than the rest of us.
thinker
JackGood point! My conscience told me I had seen that before!
Luke gives a clearer account!
WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,18:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,15:16) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,18:11) Quote Which totally invalidates your previous point that the “dove” was the voice of the Lord! But neither is wind, or rain, or fire persons, yet we know that God can take on these forms if he chooses…
FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. Heb 12:29
Does not state Yahuweh himself came down.
ConYou assumption is that the term God is exclusive to the Father!
False!
WJ
It is.
Yea right.Just like your assumption that the term “Only Master and Lord” is not Jesus that saved the people out of Egypt!
Jude 1:4, 5
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,15:12) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,18:03) Constitutionalist said: Quote In fact your friend “TheThinker IS “Unitarian”. 
thinker
Unitarians believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament and other Early Christian writings. Adhering to strict monotheism, they maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself. They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, nor did his teachings hint at the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity, of Jesus. Their theology is thus distinguishable from the trinitarian theology of most Christian denominations, which hold the idea of a triune God as a core belief. SourceI am laughing to
WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,18:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,15:12) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,18:03) Constitutionalist said: Quote In fact your friend “TheThinker IS “Unitarian”. thinker
Unitarians believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament and other Early Christian writings. Adhering to strict monotheism, they maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself. They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, nor did his teachings hint at the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity, of Jesus. Their theology is thus distinguishable from the trinitarian theology of most Christian denominations, which hold the idea of a triune God as a core belief. SourceI am laughing to
WJ
ConArians believe in the preexistence of Jesus but that he was not God.
Unitarians believe he did not preexist and was not God.
Looks like you are in both camps!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,10:24) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,18:14) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 08 2010,10:09) Quote So what are you saying, the Holy Spirit is a literal Dove? If he was not in the form of a dove then how did the witnesses know he was “Like a dove”? Again, it does NOT say it took on the “FORM” of a “DOVE”.
It states “he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove”.
This air, breath, wind [pneuma], descended AS A “dove” would descend, does not say it is a dove.
Your teaching something that is not there.
LUKE 3:22” And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
WJ,
I think Con reads a different Bible than the rest of us.
thinker
JackGood point! My conscience told me I had seen that before!
Luke gives a clearer account!
WJ
Con,Where's the concession dude? The stats show that many people visit this board. You will have no credibility if you don't concede this one. People will scroll right past you.
thinker
It is a tread about the preexisting of Jesus, so lets give some Scriptures about that. I have given these before, so lets see this time.
Col. 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities ore powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.verse 18 And He is the head of the body the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the death, that IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.
Rev. 3:14…..”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF ALL CREATION OF GOD.”
TO ME IT IS CLEAR THAT CHRIST WAS WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. BY HIS OWN WORDS IN
John 17:5 ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
Can it be any clearer? Not to me.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (banana @ Jan. 08 2010,11:17) It is a tread about the preexisting of Jesus, so lets give some Scriptures about that. I have given these before, so lets see this time.
Col. 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities ore powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.verse 18 And He is the head of the body the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the death, that IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.
Rev. 3:14…..”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF ALL CREATION OF GOD.”
TO ME IT IS CLEAR THAT CHRIST WAS WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. BY HIS OWN WORDS IN
John 17:5 ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
Can it be any clearer? Not to me.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene.
Excellent! The scriptures you quoted, I agree, answer exactly the question of the prexistence of Jesus.One more verse could be added,
Eph.1:9-10 …9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —Notice “to head up ALL in the Christ”. All creation is of Him (Jesus) through the power of God.
Blessings.
Hi brother Jerry,
Do you also believe in this so called preexistence of Jesus?
This is where many non-trinitarians fail to realise the logic of Jesus' origins if at all he was the Jewish Messiah. No Jew believes that his Messiah will be an alien or a spirit being prior to his birth on this earth. They beleive that he would be a normal human being who will be chosen among their brother as prophesied by Moses in Det 18:18.I hope you will rethink on these lines.
Peace and love
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Jan. 11 2010,18:37) Hi brother Jerry,
Do you also believe in this so called preexistence of Jesus?
This is where many non-trinitarians fail to realise the logic of Jesus' origins if at all he was the Jewish Messiah. No Jew believes that his Messiah will be an alien or a spirit being prior to his birth on this earth. They beleive that he would be a normal human being who will be chosen among their brother as prophesied by Moses in Det 18:18.I hope you will rethink on these lines.
Peace and love
Adam
But you are so wrong because of what Scriptures are telling me. Did you even look at them? There are several that say that He did exist before His birth as a Human being. He was there with His Father in the very beginning. Rev. 3:14 Col. 1:15, John 17:5 all tell us so. He emptied Himself of the Spirit and became a Human just like us. So maybe you need to rethink it over. IreneHi Sis Irene,
The scriptures you often quote on preexistence are age old scriptures often quoted by trinitarians. But at the same these are the scriptures written by biased New Testament writers who believed that Jesus was somebody other than normal human. No one was perfect in the N.T including Paul. See for yourself. These writers composed Jesus according to their understanding and to suit their community.Hope you will also realise the dilemma of our scriptures
Love to you
Adamhi Goll
you have express you well, we can see what you believe trough your words,
It is my understanding that christ is the right hand of God that he existing before he came to be Christ and died for our sins.
that is what the spirit tells me.it looks you follow tradition of men .
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 12 2010,01:09) Hi Sis Irene,
The scriptures you often quote on preexistence are age old scriptures often quoted by trinitarians. But at the same these are the scriptures written by biased New Testament writers who believed that Jesus was somebody other than normal human. No one was perfect in the N.T including Paul. See for yourself. These writers composed Jesus according to their understanding and to suit their community.Hope you will also realise the dilemma of our scriptures
Love to you
Adam
SEE FOLKS!The scripture do teach the pre-existence of Jesus. But we should reject the scriptures because they are not inspired but written by biased men.
thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,05:38) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.”
The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15). Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man). If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham?
What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.
If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent.
Hi brother Thethinker,
Please see the very first post of this thread posted by Mandy (Not3in1). “You can not have preexistence along with humanity of Jesus” as rightly stated by the the famous N.T scholor John Knox. Therefore I see lot of descripencies in our N.T Theology.Hope you will also realise such errors in our N.T
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Jan. 18 2010,19:33) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,05:38) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.”
The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15). Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man). If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham?
What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.
If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent.
Hi brother Thethinker,
Please see the very first post of this thread posted by Mandy (Not3in1). “You can not have preexistence along with humanity of Jesus” as rightly stated by the the famous N.T scholor John Knox. Therefore I see lot of descripencies in our N.T Theology.Hope you will also realise such errors in our N.T
Peace to you
Adam
Adam,John Knox was a Gnostic. You cannot have a God that understands us if He cannot become like us.
thinker
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 20 2010,16:13) No brother Thethinker, John Knox was also Trinitarian. you are wrong.
Adam! I don't believe in the trinity to say this first, however I do believe that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth.John 1:1
Rev. 3:14
Col. 1:15-17And by Jesus own words He said this in
John 17:5″And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which i had with You before the world was.”Go back and look at some of the posts that t8 has made. He has a very good understanding of the Scriptures. I do agree that some Scriptures have been added, but when you have more then one on the same subject then IMO it is true.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 20 2010,16:13) No brother Thethinker, John Knox was also Trinitarian. you are wrong.
Adam I looked up some Scriptures from the study of t8 I will write them down for you, but it is you have to prove it to yourself what t8 and I am saying to you. Also Jesus had a beginning and not like T.T and W.J. think that they always existed, that I don't see in Scriptures.
John 6:38-40
John 1:15
Jude 1:15
John 8:58
Phi. 2:5-11
John 3:12-15Ithink that John 8:58 is a good Scripture because like John 17:5 it is Jesus talking about Himself.
there are also other explanation t8 gives in that post, which you should really look up too, but it is up to you to prove all things 1 Thees. 5:21
IreneColossians 1: 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight– 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
The Son of the Father’s love is the MAN who died on the cross for us. The Son of the Father’s love is the MAN who died for your sins. Let keeps things strait, the MAN who died on the cross is the image of the invisible God, not some pre-existing creature that was morphed into Mary’s womb was. All things were created through and for the MAN who died on the cross. All things were created by, or rather according to, YHWH’s foreknowledge of the MAN Jesus Christ. Let’s keep that strait as well. The above is specifically speaking of the MAN who died on the cross…..Jesus the anointed who died on the cross IS the person who YHWH created all things for. YHWH did NOT create heaven and earth for some pre-existing creature.
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
The MAN who was known to be sent before time began BECAME the author of eternal salvation by having been perfected through suffering.
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; 3 who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,
So many points to make from the above verses in Hebrews 1.
First of all YHWH spoke to the fathers through the prophets in the OT and a Son speaking had not existed yet. The ENTIRE OT testifies to such when we see repeatedly that it was YHWH that spoke to the prophets.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Acts 13:23 this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus—
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In the beginning was YHWH’s word of the promise of eternal life. In the beginning the promise of eternal life existed in the coming of a human who’d be anointed with the Holy Spirit.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Some spirit creature was NOT foreordained to become a human being. The MAN of the PROMISE was foreordained and that PROMISE was the Word of YHWH, which was made FLESH. Hebrews 1 tells us specifically that God did NOT speak to us through some spirit son that became Christ, God says He spoke to the fathers through the prophets, and LATER spoke to us through a Son. Jesus Christ it specifically says was sent to us, the man of the promise was SENT. Some pre-existing spirit creature was not sent being morphed into Jesus. Through the MAN Jesus did YHWH make the ages. The man who died on the cross and was raised an immortal human, is the person who is the brightness of the glory and the impress of the Father’s substance.
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
The Son of MAN came down from heaven, meaning the promise was being sent and becoming flesh. Once again, some spirit creature did not come down from heaven and be morphed into Mary’s womb. The MAN that was promised before time began was SENT.
YHWH exists with the Power of Wisdom. Wisdom was used to create heaven and earth as well as to educate man.
Exodus 35:31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship,
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Ephesians 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
1 Kings 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and exceedingly great understanding, and largeness of heart like the sand on the seashore.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
YLT Isaiah 44:24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who is with Me?
Nehemiah 9: 6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Psalms 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Psalms 134:3 The LORD that made heaven and earth bless thee out of Zion.
Psalms 146:5-6 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works. 6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts : and I will declare thy greatness
The Scriptures Bible Translation Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Acts 4:24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.'
Acts 14:15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Acts 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
YHWH ALONE created the Heavens and the Earth and He did so through His own wisdom which is a Power of His Spirit.
Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares. 21 She cries out in the chief concourses, At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words: 22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.
Proverbs 2:2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. 6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints.
Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding; 14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, And her gain than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies, And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand, In her left hand riches and honor. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, And all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her. 19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; 20 By His knowledge the depths were broken up, And clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, let them not depart from your eyes– Keep sound wisdom and discretion;
Solomon poetically speaks of YHWH”S Spirit of wisdom as a she. In the beginning YHWH created heaven and earth through His own Spirit of which contains extraordinary wisdom.
Proverbs 8:22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. 32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”
YHWH’s OWN wisdom was His delight. The bible clearly teaches that YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth. He accomplished His creation through being Elohiym, the God who exists with Powers. There is no scriptural base that points to YHWH’s Spirit of wisdom, of which Solomon poetically refers to as a she, as being a pre-existent Jesus.
Psalms 102:21 To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, t
o serve the Lord. 23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. 28 The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”YHWH ALONE through His Spirit of Wisdom laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. YHWH always endures, His Spirit is Eternal Life. YHWH does not grow old and YHWH does not change, and neither do His promises change. We have confidence that they indeed become fulfilled. Though we grow old and die, we have been promised to be changed from mortal to immortal. This change has been fulfilled through our belief in Jesus Christ, who is the firstborn of the dead, and the firstborn of many brethren.
The SON who is the image of God is directly shown to be the man who died on the cross. This man was known before time began as the man that would one day fulfill the Father’s Promise of Eternal Life. All of creation was made FOR and because of this MAN. Scripture does not reflect that some spirit son helped create heaven and earth. What we are being told is that Jesus, the anointed human being, was the person through whom YHWH created heaven and earth for. Through the coming Christ, heaven and earth was made.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Verses 10-12 represent the author speaking of YHWH, quoting directly from David in Psalms 102. Putting verses 10-12 in quotations to elude that the text is God speaking to Jesus should be easily scene as false. Not only is it a direct quotation of David speaking about YHWH, but as well we know for a fact that Jesus DID age on earth, and that his years could fail him, and after he died he was changed from mortal to immortal.
There exists no true scriptural base that says Jesus created heaven and earth or helped create heaven and earth. On the contrary as shown, our Heavenly Father ALONE created heaven and earth through His Powers. He created heaven and earth for and by His foreknowledge of the coming Christ. YHWH created heaven and earth for the eternal righteous MAN.
No scripture states that a spirit son was created before all of creation and was called God's firstborn son.
Adam was the first man that was created. Luke 3 calls him the son of God. The earth was given to Adam by the Father to rule over and subdue it. Adam was the firstborn son, who was given authority over all creation. When Adam sinned however and brought death, he lost his position as firstborn son.
Deuteromy 21:15 “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, 16 then it shall be, on the day he bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel—he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright;
Genesis 48:17 Now when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; so he took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will bless, saying, 'May God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh!' ” And thus he set Ephraim before Manasseh. 21 Then Israel said to Joseph, “Behold, I am dying, but God will be with you and bring you back to the land of your fathers. 22 Moreover I have given to you one portion above your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and my bow.”
YHWH has done the same with Jesus putting him BEFORE Adam, giving Jesus the inheritance and the rights of the firstborn.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Jesus was APPOINTED heir of all things through his actions AS A MAN. This appointing makes him the rightful firstborn overall creation.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14in whom we have redemption through His blo
od, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.Once again scripture shows that it is the MAN who died on the cross who is the image of the invisible God, not some pre-existing spirit son. This MAN is the firstborn over all creation, meaning that He has all authority and rulership over all creation. YHWH SET Jesus BEFORE Adam giving him the NAME and the rights of firstborn son.
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