Preexistence

[SEEKING]

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 21 2009,06:23)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2009,16:38) Who do you think Yeshua is? WJ Col 1:13  He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, In this verse He is the the son. Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. In this verse He is the firstborn. Col 1:16  For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things were created through him and for him. In this verse He is the the one through whom all was created. Heb 1:5  For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? Heb 1:6  And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.” Heb 1:7  Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” Heb 1:8  But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Heb 1:10  And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; In these verses He is the the one spoken about . Overall, Yeshua is the Father calls His beloved son.

WJ – I think this is more like it. Thanks for calling me out of slumber.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 22 2009,09:47)

WorshippingJesus,Feb. wrote: [/quote] think you had better study the name “Yeshua” because it is not God the Father. You are so right!  Yeshua = Jesus   Yaweh = the father PS How long have you been a Christian if you don't mind me asking? To long to make that kind of error!

Hi seeking

No problem. I have done things like this many a times.

For me I think a lot of it is age.

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2009,15:05)

Hi GB Quote (Gene @ Feb. 22 2009,04:59) If Jesus is not like you and I then we have nothing to do with Him one a Personal level and we really can't say He is exactly as we are, nor can we claim any identity with Him either. This is a red herring (a deliberate attempt to change a subject or divert an argument). First of all Gene what about the Prophets and Patriarchs of the Hebrew scriptures? Are you saying that they could not have anything to do with YHWH on a personal level because he wasn’t exacly like them? So you are saying that they could not claim an identity with YHWH? That is a fallacious argument. Jesus said be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. So just how are we to do that if according to your theory the Father would have to be exactly like us. Gene are you like Jesus or ever will be in the following ways? Jesus is “the bread of life” that brings life to all men. John 6:38 Are you “the bread of Life”? Jesus is the  “Great Shephard” who holds all if his sheep in his hands and no man can pluck them out of his hands. Can you make this claim as “The Great Shephard” will you ever have this power? Can you make the claim that “The Fathers Sheep” are yours? Jesus is the “door” to the pasture! Can you make this claim? Jesus claimed that he gives his sheep “eternal life”. John 10:28 Can you tell others that you can give them “eternal life” or is it that you can tell them how to recieve “eternal life”. Therefore Jesus is more than you and had an advantage over you. Jesus is the “Baptizer” in the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11 Can you claim that you “baptized” anyone in the Holy Spirit? Jesus has the Spirt “witout measure”. John 3:34 Can you ever be filled with the Spirit without measure? Therefore, he had an advantage over you because he had the Spirit “without measur”. Jesus is the healer! Luke 22:51 Acts 4:10 Can you claim that you healed anyone, or was it Jesus who did the healing? Jesus lives in every believer. 2 Cor 13:5 Can you claim to live in all believers? Will this ever be so of you? This means that his ontological nature is greater than ours. Jesus is the one by and for whom all things were created and without him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3 You say that God made all things with Jesus in mind. But can you claim that God made all things with Gene in mind therefore creating all things “through” Gene”? If not then Jesus must in some way be greater and have an advantage over you. Can you say all things were created for you? If not then Jesus is something more and greater than you will ever be. Jesus said he will be with every believer to the end of the world. Matt 28:20 Can you know or ever make such a claim of power and omnipresence? Jesus said he was the “Way”, the “Truth” and the “Life”. John 14:6 Can you ever say that you are the “Way”, the “Truth” and the “Life”. If not then in some way Jesus is more than you are. Jesus said whatever he sees the Father do that he also does. John 5:17, 5:19 Can you make this claim? If not then Jesus was or did more than you and I ever could. Because he does as he sees the Father do and that gives him an advantage over us. Jesus said the Father had shown him all things and given him all things. John 3:35, John 5:20 Can you now or ever say that the Father has given you all things or shown you all things? If not then Jesus had an advantage over you. Jesus was/is Lord of the Sabbath! Luke 6:5 Can you say that you are Lord over a created day! If not then Jesus had an advantage over you. Jesus said men were to honor him even as they honor the Father. John 5:23 Can you ever make this claim. If not then Jesus is more than you will ever be. Jesus called all men to himself and said that he would give rest to their souls. Matt 11:28-30 Can you say that you hear the calls and prayers of men and call them to yourself to give them rest? Jesus claimed that no man can know the Father unless he revealed him to them. Matt 11:27 Can you say no man can know the Father unless you reveal him? If not then he had an advantage over you. I could go on and on, but as you can see there were many advantages that Jesus had over us and many claims that you and I could never make and if we did then people might say we are claiming to be equal to God. WJ

Hi WJ,
Good post! I appreciate your efforts and insight here.
LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Irene and Kathi

Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here.

Keith

[KangarooJack]

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 22 2009,09:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2009,08:39) think you had better study the name “Yeshua” because it is not God the Father. You are so right!  Yeshua = Jesus   Yaweh = the father PS How long have you been a Christian if you don't mind me asking? To long to make that kind of error!

Isaiah said that YHWH was Israel's “goel”, that is, the blood relative -Redeemer.

Quote

Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, and his blood relative– Redeemer, YHWH of hosts…. (Isaiah 44:6)

Who was both Israel's blood relative and redeemer rolled up in one Preson? No degree in rocket science is needed to figure it out.

thinker

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51)

Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith

You're my favorite Trinitarian, Keith!

Of course you know this! Great post!

Love,
Mandy

[david]

Quote

Jesus was speaking in plain English.

–WJ.

I know what you meant, but it's still funny.

[david]

Quote

These scriptures do not need any special interpretation! The writers of the scriptures clearly stated what they heard under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

–WJ

WJ, I feel your frustration in this area in particular. No matter how many times we underline those words….

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 22 2009,14:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51) Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith You're my favorite Trinitarian, Keith! Of course you know this!  Great post! Love, Mandy

Thanks Mandy!

And you are my favorite Unitarian!

BTW This is where we first met…Click here.

Okay enough with the mushy stuff.  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2009,15:00)

Quote Jesus was speaking in plain English. –WJ. I know what you meant, but it's still funny.

Hi David

OK, I get it.

You got me there!

Blessings. WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,16:51)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 22 2009,14:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51) Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith You're my favorite Trinitarian, Keith! Of course you know this!  Great post! Love, Mandy Thanks Mandy! And you are my favorite Unitarian! BTW This is where we first met…Click here. Okay enough with the mushy stuff.   WJ

Thanks for the walk down memory lane (I love mushy stuff like that).

I was just thinking the other day that in March, I will have been here for two years!

I wonder how much I've learned in those two years? How many mullberry bushes I've been around (and around)?

Anyway I'm glad to have met you, Keith. You're a true brother in the Lord.

God bless ya!
Mandy

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51)

Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith

Depends. It is good to encourage the truth, but not wise to encourage that which is not true lest you partake in the work.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2009,22:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51) Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith Depends. It is good to encourage the truth, but not wise to encourage that which is not true lest you partake in the work.

So true t8,
It not only is something that is not wise to encourage as you say but we are told to expose that which is false.
We better have a good defense if we are going to do that and be led by the Holy Spirit as we hear Him speak to us and guide us. If He isn't speaking to us we would do better to not speak at all.
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2009,14:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51) Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith Depends. It is good to encourage the truth, but not wise to encourage that which is not true lest you partake in the work.

Hi t8

Thanks for the encouragement!  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2009,14:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2009,10:51) Hi Irene and Kathi Thanks for the encouragement, don't get much of that here. Keith Depends. It is good to encourage the truth, but not wise to encourage that which is not true lest you partake in the work.

BTW t8

Encouragement should also be given when someone speaks the truth that agrees with you.

I for one am one of the first to give a high 5 to anybody (including you) here that speaks what I believe is the truth as apposed to the error regardless of what else they may believe.

What I mean is that becasue I am a “Trinitarian” there is very little encouragement here even when I speak truth that agrees with all. Only a few like Mandy and kathi and sometimes NH do this even though they know that I am a “Trinitarian”. ( please understand that I am not seeking encouragement, though I appreciate it when it comes)

Being a “Trinitarian” seems to be the desease of all deseases in many minds on this sight and they will hardly associate with them even when they may agree with them.

I think this is a serious heart issue!

IMO

WJ

[gollamudi]

Don't worry brother WJ, I am also there to encourage you. We are all in the same boat of finding the truth I don't think we have reached our destination so far.

Take courage in the Lord.
Peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

All,

This thread usually goes hand in hand when we talk about conception. I guess depending on which side of the fence you fall on with conception, you either believe Jesus preexisted or you don't.

Consider this thread,
Mandy

[Mr. Steve]

Hi WJ;

At least you haven't given up the good fight of faith for what you truly believe. That is respectable even if we disagree. I would prefer to chat with someone who is honest and disagrees with me than someone who's dishonest and agrees. You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. So we must be honest about our beliefs to grow. Some of the most wonderful truths I've seen in the Word were through chatting with others whose view was opposed to mine. Take care.

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

Do you believe Jesus Christ pre-existed as the Son of God with the Father God?

[gollamudi]

Yes WJ believes that but I don't think so.

[Author]

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