Preexistence

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,10:24)

Quote I suspect that you cannot answer the questions so you avoid them. I have answered your questions time and time again.  This has not been a fruitful correspondence so I suppose we have to agree to disagree. LU

I recall no answers to my questins. Could you direct me to the post that you answered them in or could you answer them again?

To refresh your memory here are the questions.
Did his pre-existence hep his ability to defeat temptation?
“If His pre=existence helped him overcome temptation then how can that be an example for me?
If His pre-existence helped to know his Father in a more perfect way then how can we be one with the father even as He is one with him?
Was His healing power dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to love dependent on his Pre-existence?
Was His ability to understand scripture dependent on his Pre-existence?
Or how about this one —-
Was His ability/right to be resurected dependent on his Pre-existence?

[theodorej]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 13 2009,08:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,04:09) Martian, It amuses me that you expect me to take my time to answer your concerns after you speak to me like that.  If you don't question anything that you believe (see quote) why are you expecting me to give you my time to answer you.  I do not have that kind of time to waste.  Sorry! Quote Big assumption on your part that I question anything I believe at this time or that I have not done what you suggest many many times. I wish you well, LU Bad tactic but a good cop out. I suspect that you cannot answer the questions so you avoid them. The truth is that I have not seen a single honest reason from you or your doctrine that would lead me to question what I believe. You show me fruit from your doctrine and I will consider it. I simply ask you to show me the fruit of your teaching.  You do not think that is important? You are on here claiming that your doctrine is correct. I ask, Does your doctrine hep me become like Christ and if so how? I do not know what you desire in life. I desire to become like Christ. Can your doctrine help me do that?  How? This is where the old died in the wool evangelical debate forums fall short. It promotes an intelectualized debate rather then living truth that produces change in peoples lives.

Greetings Martian…..There is no one in this forum that is going to be able to full fill your desire to be as christ….Perhaps you may be able to gleen some truth and understanding,however you will never be able to do that with debate as for the very nature of debate is to prevail one over another…Truth comes through faith and a God given understanding that comes from humility….”Blessed are the humble,for they shall be exalted”

[theodorej]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 13 2009,08:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,04:09) Martian, It amuses me that you expect me to take my time to answer your concerns after you speak to me like that.  If you don't question anything that you believe (see quote) why are you expecting me to give you my time to answer you.  I do not have that kind of time to waste.  Sorry! Quote Big assumption on your part that I question anything I believe at this time or that I have not done what you suggest many many times. I wish you well, LU Bad tactic but a good cop out. I suspect that you cannot answer the questions so you avoid them. The truth is that I have not seen a single honest reason from you or your doctrine that would lead me to question what I believe. You show me fruit from your doctrine and I will consider it. I simply ask you to show me the fruit of your teaching.  You do not think that is important? You are on here claiming that your doctrine is correct. I ask, Does your doctrine hep me become like Christ and if so how? I do not know what you desire in life. I desire to become like Christ. Can your doctrine help me do that?  How? This is where the old died in the wool evangelical debate forums fall short. It promotes an intelectualized debate rather then living truth that produces change in peoples lives.

Greetings Martian…..There is no one in this forum that is going to be able to full fill your desire to be as christ….Perhaps you may be able to gleen some truth and understanding,however you will never be able to do that with debate as for the very nature of debate is to prevail one over another…Truth comes through faith and a God given understanding that comes from humility….”Blessed are the humble,for they shall be exalted”

[theodorej]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,10:19)

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 12 2009,15:21) Kathi Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? They could not have shouted for joy, if they had not been created before the earth. I'm not saying you have to believe what I believe, but in my book I have a whole chapter explaining the earth, what I believe happened. Georg Hi Georg, Thanks for your reply.  The question that I do not think the Bible clearly answers is: when was the foundation considered laid?  I purpose that it was when it became formed, after day 1 and not before since it was formless.  I also purpose that the angels came during the six days of creation.  They are called the “Morning Stars” and the concept of “morning” wasn't introduced until day 1.  I'll have to read that part of your book again. God bless, Kathi

Greetings LU…..The scriptures tell us at the time of creation the earth was dark and without form Toho/Boho…The presentation of this passage suggests a previous existance during which time the angelic realm probably had dominion over the entire universe and they were presided over by none other than the angel of light Lucifer….They destroyed the earth and the universe with their rebellion….God saw fit to move over the surface of the earth and breath life into the oceans and to seperate the darkness with light and so on….Then he created the man….The foundations were laid well before human life… and the sons of God could very well have been the angelic realm….IMO

[SEEKING]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 12 2009,16:37)

Nope no quarel.  Id lightenup a trinitarian?  I did not know. I was adressing the concept of a pre=existent Christ.

Martian,

Glad we're at peace! It seems inherent in Trinitarian convictions has to be the pre-existence of Christ in the sense that a three in one concept would put each member as pre-existent.

I could be wrong but I think most if not all Trinitarians would also hold to the pre – existence of Jesus.

Blessings,

Seeking

[942767]

Hi you Greek sholars:

Is there any chance that Hebrews 1:10 is mistranslated. Can it be translated differently? It does not seem to line up with Hebrews 1:2 which states:

Quote

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Verse 2 states: “BY WHOM HE (GOD) MADE THE WORLDS”.

Thanks for your help
Love in Christ,
Marty

[Cindy]

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.,

I find this very interesting another Scripture that shows that Jesus by the power of God made all things.

It goes really nice with all the other Scriptures,showing the same.
So why is it then that so many of you want to just want to read something else in this Scriptures.
Lets see how many
Rev. 3:14
John 1:1-3
Col. 1:15-18
John 17:5
And yet…………………..you can finish……….

And I do not believe in a trinity doctrine.
Ephesians 4:6 says that the Father is above all,
by Jesus own words He said ” My Father is greater then I.

NO,NO,NO TRINITY

Peace and Love Irene
I want to bring this up. This syspect is not easy.
Irene

[Proclaimer]

Hi 942767.

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 13 2009,14:22)

Hi you Greek sholars: Is there any chance that Hebrews 1:10 is mistranslated.  Can it be translated differently?   It does not seem to line up with Hebrews 1:2 which states: Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Verse 2 states: “BY WHOM HE (GOD) MADE THE WORLDS”. Thanks for your help Love in Christ, Marty

To me it just repeats what other scriptures say, that God made all things through Christ. Many scriptures identify Jesus and say that all things were created through him, for him, and without him nothing was made that was made.

These scriptures are not even talking of the Logos, but Jesus Christ. Yes he is the Logos become flesh. He came in the flesh and he is the Word of God.

I don't know why people have to buck against these scriptures. What is the point? It says it quite clearly that God made the worlds through him. That is good enough for me and no one to date has shown me proof that these scriptures were translated incorrectly.

Then there are other scriptures that talk about him before Abraham, from ancient times, and the beginning of the creation of God.

To me the idea that Christ who was the fullness of the deity in bodily form, emptied himself and came as a man, who then humbled himself to death, and then was glorified with the glory that he had before the world began, i.e., he was seated at the right hand of God.

To believe this has no bearing on Jesus being God. Jesus is not God/YHWH, he is the son of God. All these scriptures in fact show that he isn't God.

People try and turn this into a Trinity-preexistence vs no trinity no preexistence debate, but both are actually incorrect in my opinion. It is a scripture debate and we must line up with scripture, not our own understanding.

[Proclaimer]

942767

Ask yourself this, who created Eve?

Was it God?
Yes

Was it Eve?
No

But Eve was made through Adam, yet Eve was created by God alone.

So if God can create through Adam, then how much more can he create through the beginning of the creation of God, while still holding to the belief that God creating everything alone?

Can you see that? To be a vessel by which God does something through, is not a contradiction to say that it was God who did it and only God who did it.

e.g., I do not claim to be the creator of my son, I am not that ignorant or arrogant. Yet God did create my son through me and my wife. That needs no explanation and really nor does God creating everything alone and yet we know for a fact that God creates through. After all, all animals reproduce after their own kind. Still God isn't it.

[SEEKING]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2009,20:22)

Hi you Greek sholars: Is there any chance that Hebrews 1:10 is mistranslated.  Can it be translated differently?   It does not seem to line up with Hebrews 1:2 which states:

While I do not invite the title “Greek Scholar” I do not find any variations among the scholars for that text.

Cindy and T8 have made some good observations regarding your inquiry.

Seeking

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,01:04)

942767 Ask yourself this, who created Eve? Was it God? Yes Was it Eve? No But Eve was made through Adam, yet Eve was created by God alone. So if God can create through Adam, then how much more can he create through the beginning of the creation of God, while still holding to the belief that God creating everything alone? Can you see that? To be a vessel by which God does something through, is not a contradiction to say that it was God who did it and only God who did it. e.g., I do not claim to be the creator of my son, I am not that ignorant or arrogant. Yet God did create my son through me and my wife. That needs no explanation and really nor does God creating everything alone and yet we know for a fact that God creates through. After all, all animals reproduce after their own kind. Still God isn't it.

Hi t8

Yes, but Adam played no “active role” in the creation of Eve.

Does the Bible anywhere say “by or through Adams hand eve was created by God?

So do you believe Jesus was just there like a funnel with no active part in the creation? Was he asleep?

I don't think so. Hebrews 1:10 clearly shows that Jesus “hand” laid the foundation of the earth.

Your argument about everything being created “through” (Gr dia) is a red herring, for there is no difference in through or by.

God also made everything “through” himself and “for” himself yet we see everything was made for Jesus.

This is one point that you failed to address in the debate thread on Heb 1:10.

Isa 1:18 puts it very well when he writes…

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 24 2007,13:10)

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. The statement “All things were made by him” is an astonishingly high statement to make of the Logos. And just to underscore this sentiment there is a exclusionist reiteration in the second part of the verse. There was nothing in the created order that was not made through Him. John could not have made a stronger distinction between the Creator and the “things” that He “made” Paul concurs, writing an even more emphatic statement: Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him The language here is unambiguous, according to Paul the Logos created all things, this is an unqualified statement that details precisely what the things were:- “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities”. Moreover, they were made For Him (Yeshua). Here’s something interesting though, Proverbs 16:4 says that YHWH did it for Himself: Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. If the NT reveals that Christ did it for Himself and the OT reveals that YHWH did it for Himself then, so that basis alone, the logical conclusion is that Yeshua IS Creator YHWH, or else we have a blatant contradiction. And here’s another to consider, in Isaiah 44:24 YHWH declares that He did it “alone”. Job reiterated this in Job 9:8. Does the language in these passages leave any room for the possibility of two independent beings creating “all things”? I don’t think it does. It’s yet another logical dilemma for those that propose that Yeshua is not YHWH, but a lesser being. At this point I anticipate you will likely be making this objection, which I’ll also paraphrase: 'The word “dia” is rightly rendered ‘through’, and this word infers that the Logos was not the first cause of Creation but an agent that His father used to bring it into existence (but the Father is the ultimate power behind it).' This rationale, of course, relegates the Logos to the status of a puppet, used in an instrumental way to achieve the creation. If this were true, and “dia” does connote that, then Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 challenge this dogma. The same language used in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 is also used of “God” in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10. Romans 11:32-35 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through (Gr. dia) Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen. cf. Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through (Gr. dia) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. So to be consistent, you must also accept that “God” in the above two scriptures is not credited for doing the aforementioned things in the active and primary senses (i.e. He was not the ‘efficient cause’), but was rather an intermediary between the real first cause and the recipient, which is clearly ludicrous. So, given this, if this language in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 is applicable to “God”, and still denotes that He is the ‘primary cause’ then on what grounds can you apply a different rule to Yeshua when “dia” is used in reference to Him? You can’t have it both ways.

Click here for source…

The relationship Jesus had with the Father is this…

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and ”I WORK”. John 5:17

Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because “WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES THE SON ALSO DOES”. John 5:19

These statements Jesus made were a claim to his deity, so the Jews took up stones to kill him

Jesus is not, nor ever was some inactive agent that the Father worked through like a “funnel” or a “puppet” or an “empty vessel!!!

But even so, if he had any part of the creation by being an “empty vessel” then that would leave you with a contradiction for the Bible clearly says….

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.

“Alone” and “by himself” leaves no room for a “lesser being” than himself to play any part in the creation.

Yet the writers of the NT elevate Jesus as the creator by which all things were made, for they knew who he was.

There is only one explanation for this.

Jesus is God, one with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,01:04)

But Eve was made through Adam, yet Eve was created by God alone.

This is a poor analogy to make by comparing it with the creation of all things.

First of all the Bible doesn’t state that God made Eve “through” Adam, but in fact Eve was created “from” Adam.

God took a part of Adam “(a rib) and created Eve.

WJ

[Cindy]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,00:59)

Hi 942767. Quote (942767 @ Feb. 13 2009,14:22) Hi you Greek sholars: Is there any chance that Hebrews 1:10 is mistranslated.  Can it be translated differently?   It does not seem to line up with Hebrews 1:2 which states: Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Verse 2 states: “BY WHOM HE (GOD) MADE THE WORLDS”. Thanks for your help Love in Christ, Marty To me it just repeats what other scriptures say, that God made all things through Christ. Many scriptures identify Jesus and say that all things were created through him, for him, and without him nothing was made that was made. These scriptures are not even talking of the Logos, but Jesus Christ. Yes he is the Logos become flesh. He came in the flesh and he is the Word of God. I don't know why people have to buck against these scriptures. What is the point? It says it quite clearly that God made the worlds through him. That is good enough for me and no one to date has shown me proof that these scriptures were translated incorrectly. Then there are other scriptures that talk about him before Abraham, from ancient times, and the beginning of the creation of God. To me the idea that Christ who was the fullness of the deity in bodily form, emptied himself and came as a man, who then humbled himself to death, and then was glorified with the glory that he had before the world began, i.e., he was seated at the right hand of God. To believe this has no bearing on Jesus being God. Jesus is not God/YHWH, he is the son of God. All these scriptures in fact show that he isn't God. People try and turn this into a Trinity-preexistence vs no trinity no preexistence debate, but both are actually incorrect in my opinion. It is a scripture debate and we must line up with scripture, not our own understanding.

Yes, a thousant yes's. I agree with you totally. Tell you neither can I understand why so many of our Brethren do not want to undertand in one way, but then I remember how hard it was for me, when I first heard of it. In fact I called the Guy that He was crazy. Today I have to eat those words.
Admitting that one is wrong, to humble one selve is not always easy.
God will not let you believe in your unbelief, if you have an open mind. So ask God are they right, did Jesus preexist?
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

Quote (theodorej @ Feb. 13 2009,10:50)

Quote (martian @ Feb. 13 2009,08:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,04:09) Martian, It amuses me that you expect me to take my time to answer your concerns after you speak to me like that.  If you don't question anything that you believe (see quote) why are you expecting me to give you my time to answer you.  I do not have that kind of time to waste.  Sorry! Quote Big assumption on your part that I question anything I believe at this time or that I have not done what you suggest many many times. I wish you well, LU Bad tactic but a good cop out. I suspect that you cannot answer the questions so you avoid them. The truth is that I have not seen a single honest reason from you or your doctrine that would lead me to question what I believe. You show me fruit from your doctrine and I will consider it. I simply ask you to show me the fruit of your teaching.  You do not think that is important? You are on here claiming that your doctrine is correct. I ask, Does your doctrine hep me become like Christ and if so how? I do not know what you desire in life. I desire to become like Christ. Can your doctrine help me do that?  How? This is where the old died in the wool evangelical debate forums fall short. It promotes an intelectualized debate rather then living truth that produces change in peoples lives. Greetings Martian…..There is no one in this forum that is going to be able to full fill your desire to be as christ….Perhaps you may be able to gleen some truth and understanding,however you will never be able to do that with debate as for the very nature of debate is to prevail one over another…Truth comes through faith and a God given understanding that comes from humility….”Blessed are the humble,for they shall be exalted”

I agree. I have never considered this forum a ministry in any way.
I do not expect to change anyone's mind on here and so far I have not been offered anyhitng honest enough to change mine.

[martian]

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 13 2009,10:32)

martian,Feb. wrote: [/quote] Martian, Recall what I wrote – Quote Before I share some thoughts I wish to be clear I no longer hold to Trinitarian convictions.  I will try to respond to your question as to how a Trinitarian can be helped in their walkwhen they hold to those beliefs.   Quote Again, I only submit this because I thought you were seeking clarity as to how a Trinitarian could find hope in Jesus if He was a “super Power” example posessing powers they did not have. You offered – I could go into scriptural proof that Phil 2 does not mean a pre-existent being emptied himself of his divinity, but again that would serve no purpose. Your right, it would serve no purpose because I already honor that.  I did not offer what I did to encourage debate of meaning but to offer some understanding I was under the impression you were honestly seeking. I said “Again, I only submit this because I thought you were seeking clarity as to how a Trinitarian could find hope in Jesus if He was a “super Power” example posessing powers they did not have.” You said, ” This is under the assumption that  yourinterpretation of Phil 2 is correct.”  If you had said  their I would have thought you honored the intent of my post as I made clear it was not “MY ASSUMPTION.” If you are looking for a quarrell with me, I didn't think we had one. Blessings, Seeking

I seem to be confusing your posts. I apologise. I wish no quarrel with you either.

[Lightenup]

Quote (theodorej @ Feb. 12 2009,19:07)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2009,10:19) Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 12 2009,15:21) Kathi Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? They could not have shouted for joy, if they had not been created before the earth. I'm not saying you have to believe what I believe, but in my book I have a whole chapter explaining the earth, what I believe happened. Georg Hi Georg, Thanks for your reply.  The question that I do not think the Bible clearly answers is: when was the foundation considered laid?  I purpose that it was when it became formed, after day 1 and not before since it was formless.  I also purpose that the angels came during the six days of creation.  They are called the “Morning Stars” and the concept of “morning” wasn't introduced until day 1.  I'll have to read that part of your book again. God bless, Kathi Greetings LU…..The scriptures tell us at the time of creation the earth was dark and without form Toho/Boho…The presentation of this passage suggests a previous existance during which time the angelic realm probably had dominion over the entire universe and they were presided over by none other than the angel of light Lucifer….They destroyed the earth and the universe with their rebellion….God saw fit to move over the surface of the earth and breath life into the oceans and to seperate the darkness with light and so on….Then he created the man….The foundations were laid well before human life… and the sons of God could very well have been the angelic realm….IMO

Hi Theodore,
Thanks for your opinion. I have heard that theory before but do not agree with it. I believe that the Son's beginning has something to do with day 1 of creation and then all things were created through Him even the angels. Also, everything was considered “good” even after day six, yet that couldn't have been if the angels had rebelled before or during that time. Just another opinion
LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2009,22:22)

Hi you Greek sholars: Is there any chance that Hebrews 1:10 is mistranslated.  Can it be translated differently?   It does not seem to line up with Hebrews 1:2 which states: Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Verse 2 states: “BY WHOM HE (GOD) MADE THE WORLDS”. Thanks for your help Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

I have a thought to share with you on how God can do something “by” or “through” the Son where the Son and the Father are both actively doing it.

Quote

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

You will notice that the second verse in Hebrews says that God hath spoken unto us BY [His] Son. We know that Jesus is that Son and that Jesus spoke to mankind in a living and active way. We also know that what Jesus spoke was God's word…He spoke His Father's word to His disciples. His Father has always been living and actively gave His word to Jesus.
Both have a part in presenting God the Father's words. In similar fashion, they both actively had a part in preparing this world. The source-the Father, the agent-His Son. IMO

BTW, I would guess that God didn't speak to us by the Son in the Old Testament because the Son was to be revealed later, He was hidden from us however the plan that a Messiah was coming wasn't hidden from us.

The Father gave the word to us, the Son gave the word to us. Both are true statements yet two different individuals and not conflicting. One source speaking through His Son.

The Father laid the foundation, the Son laid the foundation. Both can be true statements also yet two different individuals and not conflicting. One source preparing the world through His Son.

LU

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2009,09:06)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2009,22:22) Hi you Greek sholars: Is there any chance that Hebrews 1:10 is mistranslated.  Can it be translated differently?   It does not seem to line up with Hebrews 1:2 which states: Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Verse 2 states: “BY WHOM HE (GOD) MADE THE WORLDS”. Thanks for your help Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, I have a thought to share with you on how God can do something “by” or “through” the Son where the Son and the Father are both actively doing it. Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; You will notice that the second verse in Hebrews says that God hath spoken unto us BY [His] Son.  We know that Jesus is that Son and that Jesus spoke to mankind in a living and active way.  We also know that what Jesus spoke was God's word…He spoke His Father's word to His disciples.  His Father has always been living and actively gave His word to Jesus. Both have a part in presenting God the Father's words.  In similar fashion, they both actively had a part in preparing this world.  The source-the Father, the agent-His Son.  IMO BTW, I would guess that God didn't speak to us by the Son in the Old Testament because the Son was to be revealed later, He was hidden from us however the plan that a Messiah was coming wasn't hidden from us. The Father gave the word to us, the Son gave the word to us.  Both are true statements yet two different individuals and not conflicting.  One source speaking through His Son. The Father laid the foundation, the Son laid the foundation.  Both can be true statements also yet two different individuals and not conflicting. One source preparing the world through His Son. LU

Hi LU:

God made every thing that He made with Jesus in mind, that is the last Adam.

But no, he did not pre-exist his birth into this world.  He is the first born of God and the first born again from the dead, and he is God's heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

And so, God made the worlds through him seeing that the first world is temporary, and so, we have John 3:16 stating “For God so loved the world that he gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life”.

The scriptures show that he was begotten of God through the virgin Mary.  You cannot show me that he was begotten of God anywhere else in the scriptures.  This is the only place that we see this.

Sorry, LU I am having difficulty understanding Hebrews 1:10 and I am praying to God for understanding, and He has said that if I lack wisdom to ask.  And so, I have asked and I will await the answer.  

I believe that He did speak to you as I have already stated, but I also believe that you have misunderstood what He has said to you.  However, if He confirms what you have said, then I will have been corrected.

Any way, I know that both you and I love God and want only to teach His Word in truth.

My desire is God's very best for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 14 2009,03:40)

Hi t8 Yes, but Adam played no “active role” in the creation of Eve. Does the Bible anywhere say “by or through Adams hand eve was created by God? So do you believe Jesus was just there like a funnel with no active part in the creation? Was he asleep? I don't think so. Hebrews 1:10 clearly shows that Jesus “hand” laid the foundation of the earth. Your argument about everything being created “through” (Gr dia) is a red herring, for there is no difference in through or by. God also made everything “through” himself and “for” himself yet we see everything was made for Jesus. This is one point that you failed to address in the debate thread on Heb 1:10. Isa 1:18 puts it very well when he writes…

Hi WJ.

God created the universe alone, in other words if he didn't create then nothing would exist as creation. It is his work.

The word “through” means a channel. Like a camel going 'through' the eye of a needle which is the same word.

I wasn't there to observe exactly how this works but suffice to say that God created through his Logos that was with him in the beginning. Jesus was that Logos and became flesh and dwelt among us.

It is written that the head of Christ is God and the head of the woman is the man. All are identifed as being unique. i.e., God > Christ > Man > Woman and we know that creation is sourced through Christ from God and we know that the woman was sourced by man but by God and through Christ.

To make the argument that Jesus had a hammer and him and God worked together on the universe project is not really taught. It is taught that the source of all is God and that God did things THROUGH his Logos and his son.

God is even called the Father of Spirits and that all good gifts come from him. Jesus taught repeatedly that he came from God.

Thanks for listening.

[942767]

Hi LU:

You say:

Quote

In similar fashion, they both actively had a part in preparing this world. The source-the Father, the agent-His Son. IMO

As you say, IMO (in my opinion). There is no scripture to support this statement. Therefore, it is speculation.

God Bless

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