Preexistence

[Not3in1]

These are some meaty discussions going on, guys! With very little needling….I'm encouraged!

I don't dare jump in here because there doesn't seem a need for chips and dip.
You all are having steak dinner.

Press on!
Love you all,
Mandy

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 10 2009,09:17)

These are some meaty discussions going on, guys!  With very little needling….I'm encouraged! I don't dare jump in here because there doesn't seem a need for chips and dip.   You all are having steak dinner. Press on! Love you all, Mandy

Hope your doing well Sis, it is nice to see you around!

Love, Jodi

[Not3in1]

Hey Jodi,

I'm actually getting ready to have a hysterectomy (not fun). But then again, neither is cancer. I'm still struggling with my marriage but my husband has been sober for 6 months now, so perhaps there is hope again (I'm afraid to hope). I'm working and trying to get healthy. The kids are doing great, and spring is around the corner. How about you?

Love,
Mandy

[Cindy]

Hello Mandy! So sorry to hear about you having to have a Hysterectomy. I will pray for you that all will go well and your are back to health. have gone through all that and it is much better these days then what it was then. With God's help we will succeed.
Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi Lee]

Hi Mandy,

Sorry to hear all that. You and your husband are in my thoughts and prayers.

Love to you, Jodi

[Not3in1]

Thanks, ladies.

Everything will be okay. Love never fails. My Lord has never failed me either. I'm in good hands.

Love,
Mandy

[Cindy]

Jodi

What part of the spirit came to earth?
I have given you scriptures, not my opinions, to help you understand. I can do no more, nor can I do any better, than in my last reply. I just want you to know, you're not doing me any favors believing what the Bible teaches, neither are you hurting my feelings by not believing them.
Jesus knew that old believes would hinder us in understanding the truth, he compared it to new wine.

Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

It is not my job, or responsibility, to convince you or others, of anything; I just want to help because I think I can. Old believes, and new truth, don't blend, in any case, no hard feelings.

Georg

[Proclaimer]

I have a question.

Who was the first to come into existence (after YHWH)?

Can anyone give me an answer?

[Cindy]

t8

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus himself claims to be “the beginning of God's creation”. I would not say “after” YHWH, God has no beginning.

Georg

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 09 2009,11:51)

Hello all, I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, NASU Particularly this part: “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; The speaker is God the Father. The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son. The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.     Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action.  The active voice means that the subject does the action.  The Son did the laying of the foundation. Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it.  The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around.  The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament. LU

Hello,
I was wondering if I could get some other's opinions on this passage about Hebrews 1:8-12. I believe that it proves that the Son existed in the beginning of the world that we live in today.

Thanks alot!
LU

[Not3in1]

Kathi,
I think there might be a thread dedicated to that scripture passage? Might want to hunt for it? I don't know for sure though.

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2009,22:53)

I have a question. Who was the first to come into existence (after YHWH)? Can anyone give me an answer?

My guess is the heavenly hosts. They seem to already be in place as everything else is created.

It is the to the heavenly hosts that I believe the Father said, “And let us make….”. He was speaking to them, NOT a pre-something Jesus. Anyway, the NIV Study Bible sees it this way as well.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 10 2009,10:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 09 2009,11:51) Hello all, I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU D RIGHTEOUSNESS AND D LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, NASU Particularly this part: “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; The speaker is God the Father. The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son. The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.     Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action.  The active voice means that the subject does the action.  The Son did the laying of the foundation. Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it.  The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around.  The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament. LU Hello, I was wondering if I could get some other's opinions on this passage about Hebrews 1:8-12.  I believe that it proves that the Son existed in the beginning of the world that we live in today. Thanks alot! LU

Thanks Mandy,
I didn't find the thread. I would like to keep the question here because I think it is appropriate.

So if anyone has some insight that I am not seeing as to why this doesn't present evidence of a pre-existent Son I would be glad to read it.

LU

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2009,04:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 10 2009,10:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 09 2009,11:51) Hello all, I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU          D RIGHTEOUSNESS AND     D LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, NASU Particularly this part: “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; The speaker is God the Father. The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son. The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.     Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action.  The active voice means that the subject does the action.  The Son did the laying of the foundation. Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it.  The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around.  The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament. LU Hello, I was wondering if I could get some other's opinions on this passage about Hebrews 1:8-12.  I believe that it proves that the Son existed in the beginning of the world that we live in today. Thanks alot! LU Thanks Mandy, I didn't find the thread.  I would like to keep the question here because I think it is appropriate. So if anyone has some insight that I am not seeing as to why this doesn't present evidence of a pre-existent Son I would be glad to read it. LU

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and Jeus had a concious part in the creation. (big suumption)
Tell me if you will what happened to the memories and experiances of Christ's creative work when he came to Earth? Did God wipe his memory? Did His personality split and a part with no memories was born to Mary and the rest stayed in heaven waiting to be reintegrated after the resurectin?

[942767]

Hi:

If Jesus pre-existed and laid the foundations of the earth, it seems to me that he would have known this, and so why would God have to say to him:

Quote

Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; Hbr 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[martian]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2009,08:52)

Hi: If Jesus pre-existed and laid the foundations of the earth, it seems to me that he would have known this, and so why would God have to say to him: Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; Hbr 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Love in Christ, Marty

AND – If He knew this and had all these memories from a prior life, what a trememdouse advantage He would have in his walk with God. He certainly could not be tempted like other men. After all He would have eons of experiances with YHWH to draw hope from. I do ot hve those memories and experiances to draw from so Christ cannot be my example. Opppps – there goes the gospel out the window.

[SEEKING]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2009,14:52)

94,

These are statements made to the writers readers for themto consider –

Quote

HEB 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

They are taken from Ps.102 as statements David made regarding Jehovah. They were not spoken to Jesus, however,
the Hebrew writer applied them to Jesus.

Seeking

[Not3in1]

Kathi,

To me it doesn't make sense for the Father to say it was the work of the Son's hands…..when he clearly says in Isaiah that it was he (the Father) ALONE, and by his hands only that laid the foundations, and marked out the heavens.

So when there is contradiction, you have to wonder if there is another way to understand it. I've read a few good commentaries on this passage, I'll see if I can find them.

Love,
Mandy

[meerkat]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2009,11:59)

Kathi, To me it doesn't make sense for the Father to say it was the work of the Son's hands…..when he clearly says in Isaiah that it was he (the Father) ALONE, and by his hands only that laid the foundations, and marked out the heavens. So when there is contradiction, you have to wonder if there is another way to understand it. I've read a few good commentaries on this passage, I'll see if I can find them. Love, Mandy

Mandy

I agree with you.

To me it seems that Hebrews is not saying that Jesus laid the foundations of the heaven and earth –

Hebrews is quoting both Psalm 45 which seems to be a psalm addressed to the king (Jesus)

Also Psalm 102 which is is a psalm of despair by the king to God pouring out his woes and telling God that he (God) laid the foundations.

Psa 102:23 He has broken my strength in midcourse; he has shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 “O my God,” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days– you whose years endure throughout all generations!”
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of your servants shall dwell secure; their offspring shall be established before you.

[Cindy]

I would like to come in here too, because I like unity. I just can't seem to see what Rev. 3:14 could say something else. I have struggled with this after a J.W. told me about it. I also ask myself can we explain John 1:1 when the Word was with God. And the Word made all, the Word that was with God and was God. God the Father also called the Word (Jesus) God in Hebrew. Then the Word became flesh. IMO God had to send somebody like Himself who came from Him, brought forth from the Father, to come to earth to save mankind. Even so Christ was a man, He still had the mind of what He was before. He knew what was at stake. Why do I believe that, by reading in John 17:5 when Jesus said
give Me back the glory that I had with Yourself before the world was.
Mandy you are right when you say that the Father created all, why He used His Son to do the work for Him, I do not know. I know you believe that it was not necessary to do so. But we are not God and God does things the way He sits fit. I also know how hard this is to believe it. I have struggled with it a long time. I know I have said all of this before. We might not find unity yet, and for that I am so sorry. But think about a truth which you believe, take the trinity, if another doesn't believe like you do, you can talk to them until you blue in the face. Just an example, IMO no offence, never. If we could remember that God works in diffrent stages with all mankind, should we get so frustrated to the point that we can not love our Brothers and Sisters anymore? Not in my opinion. Disagree in Love and Peace. Maybe I should not bring this up again, I just don't know what to do about this. So, I will let God do the revealing, that is so much better then a mankind like I.
So I will not debate this again, for unity's and Love Sake.
Peace and Love Irene

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