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Hi Georg,
What part of the spirit son came to earth and was put in Mary's womb?
1Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
The savior came into the world. This savior was the infant that grew, of whom God knew from the beginning would take Adam's firstborn inheritance.
Hebrews 9:10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Scripture does not tell us that a spirit son came, it says Christ came, a human being came.
Why Georg, why do you think that is? Think about it. CHRIST CAME, the anointed came. The anointed came because the time was right to bring forth the plan of which God had in the beginning of which 1 Corinthians and Romans 5 tells us, that a man would come and save our sins.
Georg CAN you tell me WHY it says Christ CAME, and not a spirit son?
1 John 5:6 This is He who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
This is he who came, Jesus Christ! He who came to us from God was a human who was anointed with the Holy Spirit.
The scripture does not say… this is he who came by water and blood– the spirit son.
Georg does not Jesus represent the promise, the promise that was given to Abraham? The promise that God would send a savior, and that savior was revealed long before Jesus to be of the seed of David. When the time was right God put that plan into action and SENT forth the savior according to the seed of David, NOT according to a spirit son.
Georg how do you explain that point away?
WHO CAME? The promised Messiah came! The Messiah was sent, the Messiah came in the flesh and in him was the seed of David.
Joh 4:29 “Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?”
Joh 6:69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Ps 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
Ac 13:33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'
The Messiah was to come into the world, not a spirit son!
Joh 11:27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
There is not a scripture that exists that says a spirit son will come down and be the Messiah, is there Georg?
John 4:25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
Was the woman waiting for the spirit son to be sent, or had she been waiting for the Messiah from the seed of David to be SENT?
Ac 18:5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.
Jesus was the Messiah of whom God promised He would send, and indeed this savior was of the seed of David, coming in the flesh.
Where did Jesus the Messiah come from, where did the infant boy come from? Scripture says nothing of him coming down as a spirit son in the flesh. What we do know according to scripture is that he came from God according to a promise.
Who came down from heaven according to scripture? A spirit son, or the planned Messiah, the Son of Man?
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
John 6:30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
God sent the bread from heaven, the promise that would bring eternal life. God sent the Messiah the man of the seed of David, who was named Jesus.
God had a plan to save the world it was not according to a spirit son wanting to come down to save the world, it was according to God giving His Spirit to a man to keep him from sin. The Son of Man CAME DOWN, the son who was lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness was lifted up.
One thing that Irene has said that keeps sticking in my mind was this, ” God send His only befotten Son to come to earth and become a man, so He can be our perfect Sacrifies. He was the only one who could do so, because He fornew and knew what was at stake if He failed.”
Where in scripture does it say that God sent his son to BECOME A MAN? Where does Jesus EVER say that because he pre-existed he knew what was at stake? Where does scripture say that Jesus had foreknowledge? What Jesus knew about the future was according to God telling him, not according to himself and having within himself the ability to see into the future. I believe the truth is that a man had faith in God and that faith caused the man to do everything of which God had asked him to do. Jesus did not do anything because he pre-existed or because he foreknew through himself. Jesus had faith in God through the works of God's Spirit giving him strength and trust. As the scripture says those that are led by the Spirit are children of God. Jesus was indeed led by the Spirit and that is what caused him to allow himself to suffer and die.
Georg, what part of the spirit son was in Jesus, and do you believe as Irene that it was necessary that the savior be also a pre-existing spirit son in order to be able to save us?
I believe what was necessary and what was according to God's plan was that Jesus had to be purely a human being in every way, for scriptures says, as one man brought sin, another man would remove it. Jesus as our example is not suppose to be as how a spirit son, posing as flesh, pretending to need to have trust that God would resurrect him, even though he already knew immortality, is what we are suppose to look for in Christ. The truth from scripture is that we need to look to Christ as how a human being should trust in God and be led by His Spirit. Not exactly sure if you agree with Irene's statement or not. But I find that the idea that Jesus NEEDED to be a spirit son in order to save us, actually destroys the truth of scripture.
Georg I am looking forward to your response, Jodi
These are some meaty discussions going on, guys! With very little needling….I'm encouraged!
I don't dare jump in here because there doesn't seem a need for chips and dip.
You all are having steak dinner.Press on!
Love you all,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 10 2009,09:17) These are some meaty discussions going on, guys! With very little needling….I'm encouraged! I don't dare jump in here because there doesn't seem a need for chips and dip.
You all are having steak dinner.Press on!
Love you all,
Mandy
Hope your doing well Sis, it is nice to see you around!Love, Jodi
Hey Jodi,
I'm actually getting ready to have a hysterectomy (not fun). But then again, neither is cancer. I'm still struggling with my marriage but my husband has been sober for 6 months now, so perhaps there is hope again (I'm afraid to hope). I'm working and trying to get healthy. The kids are doing great, and spring is around the corner. How about you?
Love,
MandyHello Mandy! So sorry to hear about you having to have a Hysterectomy. I will pray for you that all will go well and your are back to health. have gone through all that and it is much better these days then what it was then. With God's help we will succeed.
Peace and Love IreneHi Mandy,
Sorry to hear all that. You and your husband are in my thoughts and prayers.
Love to you, Jodi
Thanks, ladies.
Everything will be okay. Love never fails. My Lord has never failed me either. I'm in good hands.
Love,
MandyJodi
What part of the spirit came to earth?
I have given you scriptures, not my opinions, to help you understand. I can do no more, nor can I do any better, than in my last reply. I just want you to know, you're not doing me any favors believing what the Bible teaches, neither are you hurting my feelings by not believing them.
Jesus knew that old believes would hinder us in understanding the truth, he compared it to new wine.Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.It is not my job, or responsibility, to convince you or others, of anything; I just want to help because I think I can. Old believes, and new truth, don't blend, in any case, no hard feelings.
Georg
I have a question.
Who was the first to come into existence (after YHWH)?
Can anyone give me an answer?
t8
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jesus himself claims to be “the beginning of God's creation”. I would not say “after” YHWH, God has no beginning.
Georg
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 09 2009,11:51) Hello all,
I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.”Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
NASUParticularly this part:
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;The speaker is God the Father.
The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son.
The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action. The active voice means that the subject does the action. The Son did the laying of the foundation.
Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it. The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around. The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament.
LU
Hello,
I was wondering if I could get some other's opinions on this passage about Hebrews 1:8-12. I believe that it proves that the Son existed in the beginning of the world that we live in today.Thanks alot!
LUKathi,
I think there might be a thread dedicated to that scripture passage? Might want to hunt for it? I don't know for sure though.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2009,22:53) I have a question. Who was the first to come into existence (after YHWH)?
Can anyone give me an answer?
My guess is the heavenly hosts. They seem to already be in place as everything else is created.It is the to the heavenly hosts that I believe the Father said, “And let us make….”. He was speaking to them, NOT a pre-something Jesus. Anyway, the NIV Study Bible sees it this way as well.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 10 2009,10:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 09 2009,11:51) Hello all,
I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.”Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU D RIGHTEOUSNESS AND D LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
NASUParticularly this part:
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;The speaker is God the Father.
The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son.
The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action. The active voice means that the subject does the action. The Son did the laying of the foundation.
Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it. The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around. The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament.
LU
Hello,
I was wondering if I could get some other's opinions on this passage about Hebrews 1:8-12. I believe that it proves that the Son existed in the beginning of the world that we live in today.Thanks alot!
LU
Thanks Mandy,
I didn't find the thread. I would like to keep the question here because I think it is appropriate.So if anyone has some insight that I am not seeing as to why this doesn't present evidence of a pre-existent Son I would be glad to read it.
LU
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2009,04:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 10 2009,10:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 09 2009,11:51) Hello all,
I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.”Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU D RIGHTEOUSNESS AND D LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
NASUParticularly this part:
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;The speaker is God the Father.
The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son.
The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action. The active voice means that the subject does the action. The Son did the laying of the foundation.
Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it. The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around. The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament.
LU
Hello,
I was wondering if I could get some other's opinions on this passage about Hebrews 1:8-12. I believe that it proves that the Son existed in the beginning of the world that we live in today.Thanks alot!
LU
Thanks Mandy,
I didn't find the thread. I would like to keep the question here because I think it is appropriate.So if anyone has some insight that I am not seeing as to why this doesn't present evidence of a pre-existent Son I would be glad to read it.
LU
Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and Jeus had a concious part in the creation. (big suumption)
Tell me if you will what happened to the memories and experiances of Christ's creative work when he came to Earth? Did God wipe his memory? Did His personality split and a part with no memories was born to Mary and the rest stayed in heaven waiting to be reintegrated after the resurectin?Hi:
If Jesus pre-existed and laid the foundations of the earth, it seems to me that he would have known this, and so why would God have to say to him:
Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Hbr 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2009,08:52) Hi: If Jesus pre-existed and laid the foundations of the earth, it seems to me that he would have known this, and so why would God have to say to him:
Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Hbr 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Love in Christ,
Marty
AND – If He knew this and had all these memories from a prior life, what a trememdouse advantage He would have in his walk with God. He certainly could not be tempted like other men. After all He would have eons of experiances with YHWH to draw hope from. I do ot hve those memories and experiances to draw from so Christ cannot be my example. Opppps – there goes the gospel out the window.Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2009,14:52)
94,These are statements made to the writers readers for themto consider –
Quote HEB 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, They are taken from Ps.102 as statements David made regarding Jehovah. They were not spoken to Jesus, however,
the Hebrew writer applied them to Jesus.Seeking
Kathi,
To me it doesn't make sense for the Father to say it was the work of the Son's hands…..when he clearly says in Isaiah that it was he (the Father) ALONE, and by his hands only that laid the foundations, and marked out the heavens.
So when there is contradiction, you have to wonder if there is another way to understand it. I've read a few good commentaries on this passage, I'll see if I can find them.
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2009,11:59) Kathi, To me it doesn't make sense for the Father to say it was the work of the Son's hands…..when he clearly says in Isaiah that it was he (the Father) ALONE, and by his hands only that laid the foundations, and marked out the heavens.
So when there is contradiction, you have to wonder if there is another way to understand it. I've read a few good commentaries on this passage, I'll see if I can find them.
Love,
Mandy
MandyI agree with you.
To me it seems that Hebrews is not saying that Jesus laid the foundations of the heaven and earth –
Hebrews is quoting both Psalm 45 which seems to be a psalm addressed to the king (Jesus)
Also Psalm 102 which is is a psalm of despair by the king to God pouring out his woes and telling God that he (God) laid the foundations.
Psa 102:23 He has broken my strength in midcourse; he has shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 “O my God,” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days– you whose years endure throughout all generations!”
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of your servants shall dwell secure; their offspring shall be established before you.
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