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Nick……..Another interesting thing is Notice Evil in Scripture is represented by a snake, and what also interesting is that a snake can not see and is lead by heat sensors to find its pray, and also a Carnal mind is lead by it's lusts and is also blind. Just thought that was interesting.
peace…………gene
GB,
You forget Satan.
The Master Jesus Christ came to destroy his dominion over men.
Jesus had a lot to say about him so listen lest you become enamored with your own ideas..GB,
Satan is also called “the serpent of old”.He is a murderer from the beginning.
Murder can be by false teaching such as universalismNick……..murder is more like by those who refuse to acknowledge GOD as the ONLY Savior, thinking they by their own so-call “FREE WILLS” can save themselves. I did not forget Satan who Jesus said was PETER , if you believe Jesus, as scripture records. Satan is Not a being it is the adversarial influences or evil influence in the world. Its everywhere life is. Its as much part of life as Good is and will always exist. Because evil explains what Good (IS) and good explains what evil (IS). You can come to know one without the other. GOD created evil for the specific reason to explain what good is and visa versa.
love to you and yours…………….gene
GB,
Are there vague evil influences floating free around the world?
Where do they come from-are they in scripture?Satan is the god of this world.
You should respect the words of Jesus.
Nick………that right they are floating around free in the air as all evil is and all good is. They are spirit (intellects) that enter our minds and influence us and if GOD , good Spirit in influencing your mind and heart you will do what that influence cause you to do , For grater is He (GOD)that is in you then He (MAN) that is in the world. Evil is not a being evil is an influence in the mind < just like good is also its in the mind and heart. He who has the Good influencing him will do Good, He who has the evil influencing him will do evil. Who you are are is based on How great those influences are in you Heart and mind.
love and peace…………….gene
GB,
Floating good and evil?
What next?If you relied on scripture you would not have to make it up as you go along. Truth is written.
Hi all,
Here are few new thoughts on pre-existence;John 17:5 — a Trap for the Unwary Bible Reader:
This verse is very frequently a weapon of Trinitarians against the pure monotheism of Jesus and the apostolic Church. In it Jesus said, “Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” Many readers take a leap from this saying into the Trinitarian theology which lies several centuries ahead of the time of Jesus. The public has been schooled to believe that Jesus was God the Son, a second member of an eternal Triune God or Trinity. With this conviction that “Jesus is God,” surely John 17:5 provides just the biblical proof Trinitarians need for reassurance. What, however, if minds are made up before the text in John 17:5 is carefully examined in its overall biblical context? Is it a solid fact that Jesus, when he asked for the glory which he “had” before the world was, was asking to regain a glory which he once possessed literally before he was a human being?
Jesus did not speak twentieth-century English and we must do him the honor of understanding his language in the context of first-century patterns of thought. Many churchgoers have not troubled to understand Jesus in his first-century context, and they read their own inherited version of Jesus’ words into his actual words and Jewish expressions. Certainly in modern English, if someone had glory with the Father before the creation, this might mean that he was personally and consciously there with the Father before Genesis. But Jesus was not speaking your language! He was not necessarily using words just as you do today. Let me suggest to you a better procedure for understanding Jesus and thus for gaining a grasp of his “health-giving words” (1 Tim. 6:3). This is a matter of trying to think like Jesus and be like Jesus. And sometimes your church experience has hindered you rather than helped you. Because no one has challenged you to consider a more Hebrew way of understanding Jesus, you may find it odd and unacceptable that your long-standing patterns of thinking are going to be called into question. So let us first apply the golden rule for all Bible study: we must all carefully examine the context of a given verse. Sometimes that context is the whole of the Bible. If Jesus was claiming to be an eternal, uncreated, self-existent “God the Son” who experienced glory alongside the eternal Father from eternity past, Jesus would have been contradicting everything that the Old Testament had said about the Messiah, son of David, promised as Savior. Not only that — Jesus would have been flatly contradicting the very creed which he had announced only two verses earlier in John 17:3. If John 17:5 means that Jesus was a glorious personal Being, equal in every way to God, then he would be erasing the truth which he had declared so plainly in John 17:3. Is it reasonable to read John 17:5 in a way which stifles the precious truth of John 17:3? In John 17:3 Jesus gave us a vitally important summary statement about who God was and who Jesus was. And they certainly were not both equally God! Listen carefully to John 17:3 and dig your theological stake deep into this primary text for defining God, i.e. who is God and who is not God. Jesus said, addressing his Father: “This is what eternal life means: that they may come to know You [Father], the only one who is truly God, and Jesus Christ whom you commissioned.” It cannot be too difficult to understand that if the Father is “the only” or sole “true God” then no one else is. If this is not true, then language has ceased to have meaning and Scripture is a revelation of nothing! Jesus, then, was not God. He said it plainly also in Mark 12:29 where again he recited and approved the Jewish Monotheist creed, confining God to a single Person.
If Jesus cannot be God, because only the Father is truly God (John 17:3), what did he mean when he asked for glory at the end of his selfless mission in Israel? The plain fact is that in verses 22 and 24 of the very same chapter Jesus defined the glory he referred to as the same glory which was given to you, the reader now living. Yes, you too had that same glory before the world began. But you of course were not personally alive then. “The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one” (John 17:22). Jesus is here praying for Christians who were not yet born. They are to have (in fact they already “had” it in God’s intention and promise) the same glory
which Jesus asked for. God, Jesus said, had already given those yet unborn Christians the same glory Jesus was asking for himself. It was glory as promised in God’s plan. Jesus further defined what sort of glory he had in mind: “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given me, be with me where I am, so that they may see my [future] glory which You have given me, for You loved me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24). Jesus had been promised that glory from the beginning and he now asked to have it bestowed on him. You can have something, in Jewish ways of thinking, “with God,” meaning that it is planned and promised for the future. John 17:5 means that Jesus desired that God now give him the glory which he “had,” stored up in God’s plan for the future. When Paul said that Christians now “have” an eternal body in heaven (2 Cor. 5:1), he meant that we have it in God’s promise. We do not have it in actuality, but we will be given it at the resurrection when Jesus returns. Do you have an eternal body now? Obviously not. But Paul says you “have” it, meaning that you possess it in God’s promise. Jesus said also that if we do not behave humbly as we should, “you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 6:1). The meaning is obviously that we have no reward stored up with God. In John 17:5 Jesus is asking God to grant him at the end of his ministry the reward of the glory stored up with the Father from before the beginning of creation. Jesus “had” that glory in God’s predetermined Plan. When Jesus was resurrected he received it in reality and he is now the glorified man at the right hand of the Father (1 Tim. 2:5). If you think Jesus was claiming to be God, just as the Father is God, you are committed to belief in two who are God, and that destroys the rest of the Bible, which thousands and thousands of times declares that God is a single Person, the Father of Jesus, the “only one who is truly God” (John 17:3).May God enlighten you
AdamAdam There are several things wrong with your post. Let me take the last one first.
John 17: 5 ” And now Oh Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.' What you are saying is wrong.
If He was only in God's plan and that is were He is now, according to you.
But we know that that is not so.Jesus is sitting with God on His Throne, He is being called God by His Father
Hebrew 1: 8 But to the Son He says: ” Your Throne Oh God is forever and ever, a scepter of righteousness, is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
read all of chapter 1 I am not calling Him God, God Himself does however, in Hebrew 1:8
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God.
Since this is the preexisting tread, we should go back to it.
Col. 1:15 Rev. 3:14 Proverbs 8:22
Romans 1:20 talks about a Godhead.
Col. 2:9 For in Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily.Peace and Love Irene
Hi Sis Irene,
Thanks for your response to my post. Indeed Jesus was in the very plan and purpose of God the Father. He was promised glory even before the foundations of the world. That glory had to be achieved by his ultimate sacrifice on the cross. Jesus in his present status was given to him by His Father not that he was already possessing before the foundations of the world. Please read my post fully you will get the meaning.Thanks and love to you
AdamAdam……….very good post, you have it right brother, all who are called and chosen have a predestined Glory with Jesus also. Adam remember Jesus said ” whosoever Has , more shall be given, and whosoever has not even what they have shall be taken away”, so keep up the good work , God is going to give you even more understanding and continue to relate it to us Brother.
Love and peace to you and yours Adam……………………gene
To All……….I really believe if we all pray for the UNITY of The Spirit Here God will give is More Spirit of Truth and Help us all grow more in our understanding of His word. none of us has all Understanding of everything, we are all learning and as we seek GOD in sincerity He will give it to us. Here is something to consider, God said, open WIDE YOUR MOUTH and (I) Shall fill it. Think of baby birds in a nest, see how they open wide their mouths to recieve the food of life from her, see how intent they are, we to should be like that, seeing GOD has let us know He is our life and gives us that true Bread that give life to us.
May God Bless and Keep you all, make His Face to Shine on you, and be GRACIOUS to you, lift up His Countenance on you and give you (ALL) Peace………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 05 2008,04:13) To All……….I really believe if we all pray for the UNITY of The Spirit Here God will give is More Spirit of Truth and Help us all grow more in our understanding of His word. none of us has all Understanding of everything, we are all learning and as we seek GOD in sincerity He will give it to us. Here is something to consider, God said, open WIDE YOUR MOUTH and (I) Shall fill it. Think of baby birds in a nest, see how they open wide their mouths to recieve the food of life from her, see how intent they are, we to should be like that, seeing GOD has let us know He is our life and gives us that true Bread that give life to us. May God Bless and Keep you all, make His Face to Shine on you, and be GRACIOUS to you, lift up His Countenance on you and give you (ALL) Peace………………………gene
Peace be with you all too. But I am not going to deny what God has shown me. If you are going to deny what God has said in Hebrew about who Jesus is for instant, is up to you.
Hebrew 1:8 This is what God the Father is saying of His Son He called Him God. So does John 1:1 not say that the Word was God and became flesh and came to earth.
Luke 22:20 is giving us the New Covenant under the Blood of Christ and He is the Light that came into this world. All that is true. But I can not ignore all the scriptures that show me where and what Jesus was before He came to earth to suffer and die for us. God did love us that much that He send us , WAIT A MINUTE IT SAYS HE SEND US. From where did He send His Son into the world. Let me put these important Scriptures down.
It starts with John 1:1 , 17:5 Col. 1:15-18 very important, Rev. 3:14, Proverb 8:22-30 if you have a JAMES Moffat Bible it shows much better.
I thought that I had put up one of my Husbands Article on
” Who is Jesus.”
I hope and pray that you will undestand what Jesus is.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Tiffany @ Nov. 29 2008,01:41) .I started in the middle of His article so it would not even be longer.
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Why is this verse so confusing to so many people? The Apostle John is not the only one that referred to the Son of God as the “Word” of the O.T., “Logos” in Greek.
Hear are Jesus own words.
Rev. 19:13 “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.”
John knew that Jesus was the “Spokesman” for God, the “Word”, because of what he had told them.
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which has sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
Jesus was the Word, the Spokesperson for the Father, hear on earth. For anyone to think that the “Word” was just a thought in the father’s mind, and became the “Word” when he spoke it, is just plain ridiculous. It would than have to be understood as though God spoke his thought into Mary, and it became his son. That would also mean that, when the son had finished his work hear on earth, he was asking the Father to become a thought again in the Father’s mind, right?
John 17:4 “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
v. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Does it not make you wonder where our scholars and theologians get these glorious ideas? Did you notice how verse 5 ended? Before the world was. Jesus is telling us that he existed long before the world was, long before he became one of us, or have you forgotten?
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him.”
Also, how can we ignore the fact that God sent his son that he gave his son?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17 “For God sent not his Son onto the world…”
You cannot give; you cannot send, what you don’t have. Pay close attention to the next two verses.
Luke 8:27 “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils a long time, and ware no cloth, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.”
v. 28 “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.”
These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”
And then there are those that go to the other extreme and say, Jesus had no beginning, he always existed with the Father as a coequal. Read the next three scriptures carefully.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14 “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Every parent knows what a firstborn is. Does anyone not know what an image
is? An image is something you make after something or some one, it is a replica, could be
a statue or painting. Who is the one that created him? Would you agree it is the Creator? Why would Jesus say himself, he is the beginning of God’s creation? Do we think he was lying? So, after reading all these scriptures, what is keeping us from believing the truth, tradition maybe?
Jesus was made in the image of the Father, exactly what is this image? Spirit in nature. Adam was created in the image of God.
Gen. 1:26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was created flesh not spirit, a different nature; so what image was Adam created in? What is it that the Father, the Son and man have in common? A mind, Paul calls it a spirit.
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him…”
God is a thinker, a planer, a builder and creator, and so are we, God made us that way, but most importantly, he gave us a mind to communicate with him. What animal can do that?
the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jes Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but he was also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
I believe, anyone that reads Col. 1:15 and 18, and does not believe what it says, it’s not because it is to complicate, it is a simple case of rejecting truth. Preemine
Gen. 1:1 “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or us more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Someone called Jesus good once.
Luke 18:18 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus rebuked him by saying,
v. 19 “And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.”
If Jesus were God he would have never denied being good. That of course does not imply that he wasn’t.
Heb. 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1 “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2 “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4 “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12 “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in
everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7 “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24 “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25 “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39 “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is anothmixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
Jesus said he came to ransom many.
Matt. 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
What is a ransom? During wartime prisoners of war were ransomed for other prisoners of war, it was an exchange. Jesus came to trade places with Adam. Jesus took Adams sin, and placed it on himself, freeing Adam from the grave, and taking his place in the grave. At his resurrection, God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid. God of course disposed of the body for obvious reasons. People have worshiped religious objects for centuries. Crosses with bone fragments of saints are especially sought after. Many Christians consider the shroud of Turin the most holy object, worthy of worship. Can you imagine how people would have treaded the body of Christ, had God left him in the tomb? I did edited some it still is long.
Peace and Love Irene
Here is the article from Georg
IreneIrene, when you say” If He would be a mere Human IMO He would have sinned like all have sinned and are short of the glory of God,” I believe you are way out of line from the scriptures with that statement.
Please Irene consider the following-
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of the dead. He is the FIRSFRUITS of God’s Holy Spirit given unto MAN, and that Spirit leads man to eternal life, and it was by that Spirit that Jesus rose and became the first to receive immortality. He from the time of his resurrection became the FIRST IMMORTAL HUMAN BEING.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Collossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
We were alienated from God because of sin, of which it states CAME FROM OUR MIND, NOT fallen angels.
God restored that peace through ONE MAN, by proving that God’s Spirit in man can work perfection. God reconciled the world through PROOF that He can take a HUMAN BEING, flesh and blood, and keep him from sin. Jesus is living proof that man needs God’s Spirit. Through this PROOF by the ONE MAN, we know that God will do the same for us. In Adam ALL die, so in Christ ALL shall be made alive. If Christ remained sinless because he was not a human being how in the world can he be our example? If Christ remained sinless because he was more then a mere human, then how upon our resurrection will we be able to be righteous? Irene you have added to and have distorted the scriptures, giving a confusing doctrine, that destroys the source of our salvation. Christ remained sinless not because he was a pre-existent spirit son who knew the stakes, but because he was a HUMAN BEING GIVEN the glorious working of God’s Holy Spirit. Do not undermine God Irene, and His ability through His Spirit to perfect man. Believe what 1 Corinthians says, that it is through a MAN, NOT a pre-existent son, that God has planned salvation.
1 Corinthians 15 tells us specifically of YHWH’s plan of which He established before the world was. This plan does NOT contain any pre-existent spirit son. This plan CONTAINS ADAM, the firstborn son of God who lost his inheritance bringing the world into sin and death, and the MAN Jesus, who BECAME as was planned from the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.
All things were created through him and for him. The HIM here is NOT said to be a pre-existent spirit son, but is specifically declared as the MAN who died on the cross. Given the lay out of God’s plan given to us in 1 Corinthians 15, Collossians 1 fits beautifully. Adam represents a type of human and Jesus another type. God’s intention from the very beginning was to have the Type of the second Adam dwell on the earth for an eternity. Jesus of course is the first of that type, so as we bore the first Adam we shall also bear the second. The second Adam is specifically talking about the man who was resurrected.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
Brethren do not deny the scriptures, it does not say as Irene believes, where first the spiritual then the physical then comes the spiritual again. The spiritual is not first, Jesus was born from Mary, as a human being he was first natural, he was resurrected spiritual. The SECOND Adam BECAME a life-giving spirit.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
The human mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. Jesus was a HUMAN being controlled by the Spirit, thus this is how he remained sinless and could not be held to death. We need to be of same mind as Jesus.
Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Eph 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
It was not because Jesus Christ was a pre-existent spirit son, pretending to be a human being and dying for us,that we are saved.
Ro 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Jesus, through the Spirit of God, was kept in full obedience, and thus remained righteous. He was born of Mary, was like the rest of creation having a mortal body because of Adam. Though his body died from crucifixion and being speared in his side, he could not be held to his death, so God raised him.
1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us* in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the
law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,Jesus was flesh and blood and God achieved victory in him through His Powerful Holy Spirit. A NEW MAN was created IN him upon his resurrection when his crucified body did not decay but was changed into an immortal body.
It is simple and beautiful; one man brought sin another man brought life. Adam and Jesus both show us that man needs the Spirit of God, our flesh profits us nothing.
1 Corinthians 15 does not say one man and one pre-existent son posing as a man.
Hebrew 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The word of God became flesh, because God spoke to Jesus through the Holy Spirit and Jesus then in turn spoke the word of God.
I am going to believe that which makes the best sense given ALL of scripture.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
What was the word that became flesh? Was the word something OF GOD, or something of a pre-existent son of God?
Hebrews 1:1 gives me sufficient proof, that the word that became flesh was God in Jesus, not a pre-existent spirit son in Jesus, however we have even more additional proof-
If we continue reading the book of John we can better understand the first few verses of it.
5:19 Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth;
30 `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
If Jesus was a pre-existent spirit son as you claim Irene, who knew what was at stake and made the choice to become flesh, then why does Jesus say that he seeks NOT HIS OWN WILL? As well, Jesus says that according to what he hears he judges. This means that the word that is in him is coming from the Holy Spirit who has made an ever existing presence around Jesus.
Please listen, Jesus wouldn’t have to HEAR ANYTHING, if the ‘word’ represented a spirit son that became flesh.
The scriptures are clear that it is BY the presence of the Holy Spirit working in Jesus that causes him to be the full expression of the image of God, thus making him speak the words of God. Nowhere do we see that a spirit from a pre-existenting son descended on the man Jesus.
8:28 Jesus, therefore, said to them, `When ye may lift up the Son of Man then ye will know that I am [he]; and of myself I do nothing, but according as my Father did teach me, these things I speak;
Did you hear that Irene, Jesus speaks not because it was the pre-existent spirit becoming flesh, but the things he SPEAKS come from what the Father is teaching him and from what he hears from the Father, through the Father’s Spirit.
The scriptures show Irene that your ideas are false, not only this, but you seem to be taking away God’s Spirit from being the work and success that was in Jesus. If the WORD is not the Father in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, but a pre-existent son, then the scriptures should declare that it is by the work of the pre-existent spirit son that Jesus is the image of God. Scriptures speak nothing of the sort.
14:10 Believest thou not that I [am] in the Father, and the Father is in me? the sayings that I speak to you, from myself I speak not, and the Father who is abiding in me, Himself doth the works; 11 believe me, that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me; and if not, because of the works themselves, believe me.
12 `Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do — that one also shall do, and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father; 13 and whatever ye may ask in my name, I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if ye ask anything in my name I will do [it]. 15 `If ye love me, my commands keep, 16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you — to the age; 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.
Jesus was said to be the word of God not because a spirit son existed and then became flesh, but because the Spirit of truth was working in him. The Father abided in Jesus through the Father’s Spirit, NOT some pre-existent spirit son abiding in him.
Luke 2:52 and Jesus was advancing in wisdom, and in stature, and in favour with God and men.
Neither John nor Jesus pre-existed. John 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Reading through the article from Georg that you posted Irene, all I see is one distortion of scripture to the next. It is truly a work of great deceit IMO. I know that you and Georg are not trying to be intentionally deceitful, but teach these things because you believe that God has shown them to you to be true, I wish however that you would try and at least grasp what I am showing from the scriptures I have posted, and think about them.
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples F3 (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;
Not the pre-existent son of God spoke out of the mouth of David, but the Holy Spirit. Let’s replace word with Holy Spirit and see how it fits.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was with God, and the Holy Spirit was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Ro 8:2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:10And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1Co 15:45And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
2Co 3:6who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;* for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Ga 6:8For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
Re 2:7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” '
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Jesus was a human being born of the Spirit. Jesus was not posing as a human being but really being a pre-existing spirit son.
The WORD of God comes through the Holy Spirit.
Jesus became our way to life because the Holy Spirit of life was working in him.
1Co 12:3Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
The WORD became flesh because the Holy Spirit descended and dwelled in Jesus. Not because a pre-existing spirit son took on the appearance of a human being.
Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Luke 3:2 while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins
The word came to John through the Holy Spirit, not through a spirit son.
Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret,
Lu 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Lu 11:28But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Jesus is the WORD of God because through the Holy Spirit he speaks the word of God. Jesus is not the word of God because he is a spirit son.
Ac 4:31And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness
They spoke the word of God because they were filled with the Holy Spirit, just the same as Jesus.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. 14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
The word of the living God was in Jesus and worked by it’s great powers to keep Jesus from sin.
Jesus was our savior, not because he was a pre-existent spirit son who knew the stakes when he disguised himself in human flesh, but because the Powerful and Almighty Spirit of God was birthed into a human being proving that God can make man a righteous creature. Jesus represents HOW YHWH saves man, which is through the gift of His Spirit.
1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
Jesus is called the word, strictly because he is the deliverer of God's word. Before Jesus was born, according to the Old and New Testament, God spoke the word through the prophets. God’s word is given unto man through God’s Holy Spirit.
The TEXT of the bible specifically uses the name of the Father as being the ONE who created the heavens and earth. All throughout the OT it is said that YHWH created the heavens and the earth. He created earth for and thus by His foreknowledge of His creation of the NEW MAN, not for the type of man of the first Adam, but the type of the second. YHWH knew from the beginning that He would in the end become ALL in ALL through the use of His Spirit working IN MAN.
Neh 9: 6 You are YHWH, You alone. You have made the heavens, the heavensof the heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that are on it, the seas and all that are in them, and You give life to them all.
Psalms 115:15 You are blessed by YHWH, Who made the heavens and earth
Psalms 121:2 My help comes from YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the Name of YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 134:3 YHWH Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 146:5-6 Whose expectancy is in YHWH his Elohim, Maker of the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them,
Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
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