Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
So the lamp was only recognised when it glowed from the light within.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2008,15:25)

Hi 94, So the lamp was only recognised when it glowed from the light within.

Hi Nick:

God by His Holy Spirit reveals His Son and sons to humanity by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit revealed this to Simeon (Luke 2:25-31) before Jesus was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. God then revealed that Jesus was the Messiah to John the Baptist before Jesus was indwelt by the Spirit. He revealed who he was to the Apostle Peter in Matthew 16.

But basically, God reveals him as His Son and His Christ by confirming the Word that Jesus is teaching and obeying with miracles and signs and wonders following including raising him from the dead.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Does scripture say J the B knew who Jesus really was BEFORE the Jordan?

[gollamudi]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 13 2008,07:08)

Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 12 2008,18:55) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 12 2008,01:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2008,19:03) Hi GM, Is this the THOUGHT that John said he saw and touched? Hi Nick: I'll post the scriptures to which you refer by your comment.  I believe that they are self-exlanatory: Quote 1Jo 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 1Jo 1:2  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 942767 You are taking that scripture out of context. You really have to look at the whole story and all that John is teaching us. 1 John which is the epistel but also is the continued story of Johns Gospel. IMO. or visa versa. In the Gospel of John He tells that in the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God or the Son of God. He was the Spokesperson of the O.T. Nobody has heard or seen the Father. So when it speaks of God it is Jesus speaking. verse 10 shows that He created or made all the World. This is besides all other Scriptures that speak of the preexsisting of Jesus.  So tell me could He do that if He was only in a plan?   verse 11 He came to His own and His own did not receive Him. But as many as did receive Him, He gave the right to become children of God. He was alive in the Spirit, He emptied himself and became a man to save all mankind. And the Word became flesh. Peace and Love Irene I wanted to say one more thing, look at this tread, we are on page 460 WOW Hi Mrs: I have given my understanding on this subject which happens to agree with what Adam has stated.  Of course, there is always a possibility that I could be wrong, but I don't think so. As you say, we have gone over this topic over a multiple of pages, and I personally do not believe that I will make any more posts to this topic.  I know that Jesus exists now, and that he is coming for the church.  That I know for a fact. God Bless

Hi brother 942767,
Thanks for such understanding on God's very purpose and plan to be fulfilled in our Lord and Christ Jesus. There is no necessity to believe in any assumed preexistence of our Lord. Yes you have rightly told that Jesus exists now that is more important for our salvation and eternal life as Jesus himself told “Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ” (Jn 17:3). So believing in the Jesus who is the present one not the so called preexisting one. This man Jesus who is our human-mediator between God and men is more important than the so called preexisting being.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

I MOVED THIS OVER FROM THE TRINITY FORUM.

Hi Kathi,

Quote
don't think God is invisible and that it is impossible to see Him.

I see that Nick has given some excellent scriptures for you to look at regarding God's “form”. This is how God exists normally. So if Jesus is in God's form, then this rules out Jesus being an angel, the light, or a messenger of any kind.

Quote
Mary gave the Son his fleshly body.

Is this all that you gave to your son, Kathi? Does your son not also express various attributes of you?

Quote
the inner spirit of man doesn't bleed and die a physical death but a spiritual death,

I'm not sure what difference it makes to separate these two “deaths” out? But when a human being dies, their body returns to the dust and their spirit ceases to live on (i.e., the dead “know” nothing).

Are we trying to put more importance on the spiritual man versus the physical body of the man? I'm confused. One cannot exist without the other in this realm, anyway.

To the follower's of Christ, he was a man, albeit a different sort of man.

Luke 8:25

25And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Quote
I believe that the inner spirit of Christ was the divine nature of the Son that existed before creation.

I know you believe this, but it is not in-line with the teaching of true conception.
We know Jesus was conceived.
His birth was compared to that of Elizabeth (did John's nature exist before creation?)
Can you separate YOUR sons nature from his body?

Quote
He became the Son of God as the firstborn of God before creation. He became the Son of Man from His birth through Mary.

He *also* became the Son of God as the first to be raised from the DEAD. Jesus is the firstborn from the DEAD!.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Romans 1:4
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Is Jesus the firstborn over creation AND the firstborn from the dead?
How does this make sense and fit into the story of our salvation? What possible reason would there be for Jesus to be born first over everything that was created. Did God really need a helping-hand in creation? No! He used his own hand to lay out the foundations of the world! So what possible function would Jesus have existing before he came to earth? Was he there to keep God company?

Jesus clearly had a function in being the firstborn from the dead! If he never passed through that gate…..we would never pass through either.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Jesus is the gate that leads to life. He's passed through death unto life. He gives that life to us. So now we see the value in his physical and spiritual death (indeed he gave up the ghost!).

But none of us exist before our physical births. In this way we cannot see the value of Jesus' life before he came to us as God's Son.

As for becoming the Son of Man through Mary, he certainly did. However, Mary was more than just a flesh-doning-factory for a previous lifeform….. God could have made any “body” appear for Jesus' preexistent nature to inhabit….. Instead he wanted a true Son over his house (not like Moses was *although Moses is son, too, right?*).

God conceived Jesus with Mary.

Love,
Mandy

[Tiffany]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 15 2008,05:53)

I MOVED THIS OVER FROM THE TRINITY FORUM. Hi Kathi, Quote   don't think God is invisible and that it is impossible to see Him. I see that Nick has given some excellent scriptures for you to look at regarding God's “form”.  This is how God exists normally.  So if Jesus is in God's form, then this rules out Jesus being an angel, the light, or a messenger of any kind. Quote   Mary gave the Son his fleshly body. Is this all that you gave to your son, Kathi?  Does your son not also express various attributes of you? Quote   the inner spirit of man doesn't bleed and die a physical death but a spiritual death, I'm not sure what difference it makes to separate these two “deaths” out?  But when a human being dies, their body returns to the dust and their spirit ceases to live on (i.e., the dead “know” nothing). Are we trying to put more importance on the spiritual man versus the physical body of the man?  I'm confused.  One cannot exist without the other in this realm, anyway.   To the follower's of Christ, he was a man, albeit a different sort of man. Luke 8:25   25And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him. Quote   I believe that the inner spirit of Christ was the divine nature of the Son that existed before creation. I know you believe this, but it is not in-line with the teaching of true conception.   We know Jesus was conceived. His birth was compared to that of Elizabeth (did John's nature exist before creation?) Can you separate YOUR sons nature from his body? Quote   He became the Son of God as the firstborn of God before creation.  He became the Son of Man from His birth through Mary. He *also* became the Son of God as the first to be raised from the DEAD.  Jesus is the firstborn from the DEAD!. Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Romans 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Is Jesus the firstborn over creation AND the firstborn from the dead?   How does this make sense and fit into the story of our salvation?  What possible reason would there be for Jesus to be born first over everything that was created.  Did God really need a helping-hand in creation?  No!  He used his own hand to lay out the foundations of the world!  So what possible function would Jesus have existing before he came to earth?  Was he there to keep God company? Jesus clearly had a function in being the firstborn from the dead!  If he never passed through that gate…..we would never pass through either. Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Jesus is the gate that leads to life.  He's passed through death unto life.  He gives that life to us.  So now we see the value in his physical and spiritual death (indeed he gave up the ghost!). But none of us exist before our physical births.  In this way we cannot see the value of Jesus' life before he came to us as God's Son. As for becoming the Son of Man through Mary, he certainly did.  However, Mary was more than just a flesh-doning-factory for a previous lifeform…..  God could have made any “body” appear for Jesus' preexistent nature to inhabit…..  Instead he wanted a true Son over his house (not like Moses was *although Moses is son, too, right?*). God conceived Jesus with Mary. Love, Mandy

Mandy I am just taking this one word for now out to show it wrong. Preeminence and supremacy are not the same. He was first to be created and first to be resurrected from the dead, so that in all He will have preeminence. First in all.
It is from Col. 1:18 and not Romans 1:4 In this verse there is neither supremacy or preeminence. You did mean Col. right?
Was the Word of God not discribed as being the Light of the world? John 1:9 Did that Word not become flesh and was then called Jesus?
John 17 Jesus says this:” And now Oh, Father glorify Me with the glory I had with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.” We do know that Jesus is now a Spirit being. And in this scripture He tells us that He was that way before the world was.
Not some plan or thought in God's mind. He was a real being a Spiritual Being.
Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Regarding the glory that Jesus had “before the world was”…….

According to John 1:1 the Word was God. Question: did the Word have “glory”? If so, what was this glory? For it is written that God will not share his glory with *another*.

John proclaimed the glory that Jesus had/has and that is of the only begotten Son of God. We are told in the gospel's when Jesus was conceived and born. We are not, however, told when he was born in a preexistent time – that is speculation.

[NickHassan]

Hi mandy,
If he had his glory in what way is this sharing in God's glory?

[Tiffany]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 15 2008,08:07)

Regarding the glory that Jesus had “before the world was”……. According to John 1:1 the Word was God.  Question:  did the Word have “glory”?  If so, what was this glory?  For it is written that God will not share his glory with *another*. John proclaimed the glory that Jesus had/has and that is of the only begotten Son of God.  We are told in the gospel's when Jesus was conceived and born.  We are not, however, told when he was born in a preexistent time – that is speculation.

If you go to John 1:1 it says:” In the beginning, who's beginnng.
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God (Father)

verse 3 listen real hard now, it says that all things were created by Him.

Would you not think if He was the one who created all, that He had to be there?
The glory that He was is a Spirit Being in the beginning.
And the Word became flesh.

Col. 1:15-18
Rev. 14

All these are speculations?

Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Hi Mandy and Nick and Irene,
There are indeed many verses that state that God is invisible for sure.  From man's perspective, the Most High God has remained unseen except by Moses who saw His form and the Son of God who actually has seen Him in a way no man has seen Him including Moses.

Num 12:5-8
5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward, 6 He said,

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
Even openly, and not in dark sayings,
And he beholds the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?”
NASU

Heb 11:27
27 By faith he (Moses) left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.
(from New International Version)

John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.  
NASU

This next passage gives us a reason why God remains invisible to us:

Deut 4:15-19

15 “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, 16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth.
NASU

He does not want us to make a form of Him to worship as those who made graven images of their gods and then worshiped them.

Quote

I see that Nick has given some excellent scriptures for you to look at regarding God's “form”.  This is how God exists normally.  So if Jesus is in God's form, then this rules out Jesus being an angel, the light, or a messenger of any kind.

We have to look at all the scriptures including the ones at the beginning of this post.
I do not know how you would know how God exists normally.
I don't believe that the Son of God can be classified as an angel, a messenger-yes, but not a created angel.
Just because He is in the form of God doesn't mean that He can't be the light or a messenger, I don't know where you are coming up with this stuff.

Phil 2:5-6
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although HE EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD…
NASU
John 8:12

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, ” I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
NASU

Heb 1:1-2
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son…
NASU

In the above three verses we clearly see that the Son of God existed in the “form” of God and that He is the “Light” of the world and that God speaks through Him.  So you see that He can exist in the form of God and be the Light and a messenger.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Are you convinced that the various manifestations of God within our puny visible realm
constitute fully our mighty God?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,00:00)

Hi LU, Are you convinced that the various manifestations of God within our puny visible realm constitute fully our mighty God?

Hi Nick,
I am not going to define what God is or is not limited to. I want to accept what He says about Himself in scriptures though. I am sure my mind can not comprehend His fullness.
Can you?

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
When Moses saw the manifestation of God
had God left heaven?

[Lightenup]

Quote
Hi Mandy,

Quote

Mary gave the Son his fleshly body. Is this all that you gave to your son, Kathi? Does your son not also express various attributes of you?

I'm not sure why you would compare the two situations. My sons were not concevied by the Holy Spirit as was Jesus. John the Baptist was not conceived by the Holy Spirit either. I'm not sure what you are so worried about here. When a woman conceives without the help of a human man it is a unique situation and we need not insist they bring about the same result to those who conceive with a human man. If God wanted the same result, He could have had Joseph conceive with Mary.

Quote

Quote the inner spirit of man doesn't bleed and die a physical death but a spiritual death, I'm not sure what difference it makes to separate these two “deaths” out? But when a human being dies, their body returns to the dust and their spirit ceases to live on (i.e., the dead “know” nothing). Are we trying to put more importance on the spiritual man versus the physical body of the man? I'm confused. One cannot exist without the other in this realm, anyway. To the follower's of Christ, he was a man, albeit a different sort of man. Luke 8:25 25And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him. Quote I believe that the inner spirit of Christ was the divine nature of the Son that existed before creation. I know you believe this, but it is not in-line with the teaching of true conception. We know Jesus was conceived. His birth was compared to that of Elizabeth (did John's nature exist before creation?) Can you separate YOUR sons nature from his body?

You are correct in saying that Jesus was a different sort of man. Also, He had a different sort of conception that I believe produced different results.

He was different than John the Baptist. John was conceived by an earthly father and an earthly mother and NO, John didn't pre-exist his conception. I'm not sure at all why you would ask that.

You asked if I can seperate my son's nature from his body. Well I surely can't, once I couldn't even seperate the bubble gum from his hair.:;): God can do anything necessary though.

Quite possibly there are two natures within man. The nature of the flesh and the nature of the spirit (or innerman).

Mark 14:38-39
38 ” Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
NASU

I read that God can seperate the flesh from the spirit. When we die, the flesh returns to the dust and the spirit returns to the One who gave it.

So, I think that the innerman of Jesus was of a divine nature and pre-existed His conception within Mary. The outerman of Jesus was of an earthly nature and did not pre-exist His conception within Mary, IMO.

Quote

Is Jesus the firstborn over creation AND the firstborn from the dead? How does this make sense and fit into the story of our salvation? What possible reason would there be for Jesus to be born first over everything that was created. Did God really need a helping-hand in creation? No! He used his own hand to lay out the foundations of the world! So what possible function would Jesus have existing before he came to earth? Was he there to keep God company? Jesus clearly had a function in being the firstborn from the dead! If he never passed through that gate…..we would never pass through either.

I doubt that God NEEDED a helping hand, maybe enjoyed a helping hand though. For one reason that the Son of God had to be there in existence before creation was to witness the power of the Father and to witness that the Father is indeed the source of all things good. He was a first hand witness that God created the world and that God was able to work through Him.

One of the purposes of Jesus as a man was to explain the Father. If He existed since before creation then He was more than qualified for that task. Otherwise, if Jesus didn't exist as a living being until conception in Mary, He really couldn't explain Him any better than John the Baptist. God might have just as well of sent Gabriel to become a man. Gabriel was around during creation and could explain God to us much better than someone who just lived 30+ years. Jesus explains the Father as the source of all things good. How did He know? He witnessed the beginning of all things and where the beginning of those things came from.

Quote

As for becoming the Son of Man through Mary, he certainly did. However, Mary was more than just a flesh-doning-factory for a previous lifeform….. God could have made any “body” appear for Jesus' preexistent nature to inhabit….. Instead he wanted a true Son over his house (not like Moses was *although Moses is son, too, right?*). God conceived Jesus with Mary.

God chose Mary for specific reasons. He had to fulfill the qualities that the prophecies stated like being a virgin, etc. and come at the right time. She found favor with God.

Being the pre-existent Son within the baby of which the Holy Spirit conceived with Mary truly gave us the Son of God within a man.

Love,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,00:40)

Hi LU, When Moses saw the manifestation of God had God left heaven?

Hi Nick,
Do you limit where God can go? He can go wherever He pleases.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Has God ever left heaven?

[gollamudi]

Good question brother Nick. God acts through His agencies like angels, Jesus, Holy Spirit, prophets etc.

[Tiffany]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,18:08)

Hi LU, Has God ever left heaven?

No God has never left Heaven. One day He will come down with the New Jerusalem. Streets made out of Gold and Gem Stones, wow. But He upholds all by His Holy Spirit and in that sense has left Heaven.
Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,08:13)

Hi mandy, If he had his glory in what way is this sharing in God's glory?

I was merely pointing out that John 1:1 teaches that the Word (most interpret this as being the person, Jesus) and God, himself – are ONE.

[Not3in1]

Kathi,
I'm running out the door this morning but I will be back this evening to read your post and give a thoughtful response.

Thanks,
Mandy

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