Preexistence

[Tiffany]

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 19 2008,09:23)

Now let me get in here. First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out. Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind. Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.” Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created…………… verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.” cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead. Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”  I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed the Firstborn of all creation. Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30  I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible. verse 22 ” The eternal formes me first of His creation, first of all His works in days of old.” verse 23 ”  I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first when earth began.” Please listen what it says verse 24 I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WAS NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNTAINS OF WATER.” verse 25 “e're He sank the basis of the Mountains, e're the hills exsisted, I WAS BORN.' verse 26 ” when earth and fields were not created, nor the very clouds of the world.” verse 27 ” When He set the heavens up, I WAS THERE, where He drew the Vaults o're the abyss.” verse 28 ” when He made the clouds firm overhead, when He fixed the fountains of the deep.” verse 29 ” When He set the bounderies of the sea, when He layed foundation of the earth.” verse 30 “I WAS THERE WITH HIM THEN, HIS FOSTER CHILD,  I was His delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly. This is so exciting to me to see all of this. Peace and Love Irene

I have looked at so many other post, but it is I that was accused of being ambiguous. But I will put this up again, because I believe these are good Scriptures, the Words of God. And to say that it is wrong to do IMO is stupidity.

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 02 2008,13:45)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 31 2008,20:16) Hi Adam, Quote Yes Mary contributed 100% for Jesus the man Then you are willing to contend for true conception?  That Mary contributed her half of the chromosomes needed to make Jesus? Quote So my understanding of Jesus is entirely different what you believe thinking that God contributed flesh and blood instead of Spirit which will be against His nature. I also believe that God is Spirit.  I do not believe that God contributed flesh and blood to his Son – how could he?  AHHHHHHH, WAIT!!!  A light has gone on.  Let me stop right here and ponder what I have just written down.  I'll get back to you tomorrow…. Love, Mandy You realise you are talking of Jesus human body, i.e., when he emptied himself and partook of flesh. Before that he existed in the form of God, or with divine nature. He is now with God with the glory he had before the world begun, i.e., he is not back to being some kind of concept or attribute of God, but is a being who exists and can be seen. His hair is white as wool and body sort of shines like glowing hot metal and his face is like the sun. So if he is back with God with the glory he had before the world begun, then that gives us a clue as to what his glory was like before he came to earth. i.e., the glory he has now is the same glory that he had before the world begun. Thanks for listening.

This is good stuff, t8.

As I was reading it I remembered another teaching that seemed “hard” for some and was led to John, chapter 6. There are some connections to be made between what you have shared regarding Jesus' glory and Jesus being the living bread of life that came down from heaven.

Much pondering and much prayer going on now…

Thank you for your patience and insight,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Mandy,
Still you are not leaving your beliefs which I requested you to reconsider. You are well aware that God is pure Spirit and nothing mortal substance consists of Him. Your DNA, flesh and blood can not be related to God personally except in relation to Spirit of Jesus which was given from God. As I have already quoted of first woman being created from Adam's rib there is no difficulty for God to form second Adam from a woman without male intervention. As far as the Son-ship of Jesus with God is concerned it is in relation to his Spirit given from God which is called Spirit of Son-ship even the same Spirit is being shared by all the children of God on their declaration as children of God. There is no need to mystify Jesus' birth as if God has personally involved with mortal woman by giving His so-called sperm or DNA.
Please realise this simple truth. No Unitarian or Jewish Monotheist agree with you in this regard.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
The Holy Spirit was given to Jesus only at the Jordan.
But he was a normal living man with his own spirit before then and then he lost that spirit at calvary.

[gollamudi]

I agree with you brother Nick,
Jesus was born with his own spirit like any human being but was anointed by the Holy Spirit and became literal Christ at Jordan and was confirmed by His Father from Heaven at that time. But my arguement with Mandy was that God can not pass on some mortal substance like DNA or sperm from within Him which is against His immortal Spirit nature. I believe Jesus became the Son of God by not sharing with so-called DNA or Chromosomes from God his Father but by sharing God's Spirit right from his birth in Mary and became literal Christ when he was anointed by the Holy Spirit at Jordan.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,15:49)

Hi Sis Mandy, Still you are not leaving your beliefs which I requested you to reconsider. You are well aware that God is pure Spirit and nothing mortal substance consists of Him. Your DNA, flesh and blood can not be related to God personally except in relation to Spirit of Jesus which was given from God. As I have already quoted of first woman being created from Adam's rib there is no difficulty for God to form second Adam from a woman without male intervention. As far as the Son-ship of Jesus with God is concerned it is in relation to his Spirit given from God which is called Spirit of Son-ship even the same Spirit is being shared by all the children of God on their declaration as children of God. There is no need to mystify Jesus' birth as if God has personally involved with mortal woman by giving His so-called sperm or DNA. Please realise this simple truth. No Unitarian or Jewish Monotheist agree with you in this regard. Thanks and love to you Adam

Hi Adam,

Clearly this idea of God fathering his own child is a stumbling block to you, I'm sorry. However the sonship that the Father and Son shared is much more than just through spirit. If it was only spirit-relatations there was no need for the virgin and for a physical conception. God could have appointed any good man already alive and filled him with his Spirit without measure.

A true Son usually is the one who is fit to take over his Father's business. Why do you think that some things are kept “in the family”?

Don't be too worried for me bro. I have an open mind and I am teachable. The Spirit will guide me, I'm not lost.

Much love,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis,
I like your honesty and positive mind. Do continue in that God given Spirit you will certainly know the truth behind Jesus birth. You know Jesus the second Adam has to be a pure flesh and blood like you and me. Also he has to be the Seed of the woman as per Gen 3 therefore Jesus has to be like first Adam in all respects. At the same the Messiah has to be God's anointed and would be called Son of God through His Spiritual relationship with his Father God there is no need for us to assume any flesh and blood relationship of Jesus with his Father God like the human relationship which we have with our father and mother. He is unique in his birth that he is born of a woman alone without any human father. This was possible with God to make any human being without male and female union. More than this I think that will lead us into mere speculation and Pagan mythology.

Sorry for my repeated attempts to argue on this subject with you.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,16:53)

I agree with you brother Nick, Jesus was born with his own spirit like any human being but was anointed by the Holy Spirit and became literal Christ at Jordan and was confirmed by His Father from Heaven at that time. But my arguement with Mandy was that God can not pass on some mortal substance like DNA or sperm from within Him which is against His immortal Spirit nature. I believe Jesus became the Son of God by not sharing with so-called DNA or Chromosomes from God his Father but by sharing God's Spirit right from his birth in Mary and became literal Christ when he was anointed by the Holy Spirit at Jordan. Thanks and blessings Adam

Hi GM,
If Jesus was born blessed with the Spirit and we are not then he was not like to us as you have just claimed.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Nick,
We also received our own spirit from God via our parents but my opinion is of Jesus receiving his own spirit directly from God like the First Adam received it directly from God. Please gothrough the following link there are wonderful logics on Jesus being the Second Adam like the first one who could reverse the failure into success.

http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2008….ce.html

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[Not3in1]

Adam,

What does being the Last Adam mean to you?

Both of the Adam's were flesh and blood. What do you suppose the differences are?

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,21:56)

Hi brother Nick, We also received our own spirit from God via our parents but my opinion is of Jesus receiving his own spirit directly from God like the First Adam received it directly from God. Please gothrough the following link there are wonderful logics on Jesus being the Second Adam like the first one who could reverse the failure into success. http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2008….ce.html Thanks and blessings Adam

Hi GM,
So it is just an opinion.

He was exactly like us but did not sin, not due to any instrinsic advantage but due due to his parenting by his father who was with him.[Acts 10.38, Heb12]

[Lightenup]

Adam,
Were you born holy? If so, where is it written that man is born holy?  Jesus was born holy.  Big difference here.

Luke 1:35

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
(from New International Version)

LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 04 2008,05:17)

Adam, What does being the Last Adam mean to you? Both of the Adam's were flesh and blood.  What do you suppose the differences are?

Hi Mandy,
Last Adam means Jesus was the type of Adam whom God created in the beginning. Both are called 'son of God' as per Luke 1&3. The First Adam disobeyed God and brought death on all his generations rather on all makind but the second Adam Jesus absolutely obeyed God and brought blessing and eternal life to all who believe in his name. Both Adams were specially formed by God; one was created and breathed by God and the other was miraculously conceived in a woman without male involvement. The first Adam became a living soul and the second Adam became a life-giving Spirit. The first Adam is from the dust of the ground and second Adam was having the heavenly origins from God stating 'the word became flesh'. Both were made in the perfect image and nature of God but the first one lost his glory by sinning and the second one willfully chose to be found in nature of a slave rather in the image of the first one who lost God's glory. God had casted out the first one from His presence but He superexalted the Last one above all power and authority even to the level of sitting besides Him on His throne. But remeber both were human beings made in the image and nature of God.

What else you need Sis ?
Hope I have answered your queries.
Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Adam,

You just named 4 or 5 differences between the first Adam and the second Adam. Are they truly the same “type” of Adam?
I don't think so, in my opinion.

These two Adams are very different. Further, on that Day before the LORD – Adam will need to receive his adoption as a son (the adoption Paul tells us that we are all waiting and hoping for as we do not have it now). BUT JESUS WILL NOT NEED TO BE ADOPTED.

Why do you think this is if Adam and Jesus are exactly the same sons before the LORD?

Thanks for indulging me, bro.

Love to you, too.
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Hi all,
Read through this passage to see if you can tell me who the “I” is here. Don't miss v. 16.

Isa 48:12-16
12
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASU

Here this might help:
Heb 1:8-10

8 But of the Son He says…….

10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU

The First and the Last is also spoken of here:
Rev 1:17-19

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
NASU

Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.

In summary, could the answer be the only begotten Son of God? Whoever the “I” is, spread out the heavens and his hand founded the earth and then later, the Lord God sent Him and His Spirit.

LU

[Not3in1]

Kathi,

I've never thought it made sense to say that the Father was the “first” and the “last”. Perhaps you have a point here……

Hmmmm,
Mandy

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2008,16:38)

Hi all, Read through this passage to see if you can tell me who the “I” is here.  Don't miss v. 16. Isa 48:12-16 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU Here this might help: Heb 1:8-10 8 But of the Son He says……. 10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; NASU The First and the Last is also spoken of here: Rev 1:17-19 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,  18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.   NASU Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.   In summary, could the answer be the only begotten Son of God?  Whoever the “I” is, spread out the heavens and his hand founded the earth and then later, the Lord God sent Him and His Spirit. LU

Yes that is food for thought.

[Tiffany]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2008,16:38)

Hi all, Read through this passage to see if you can tell me who the “I” is here.  Don't miss v. 16. Isa 48:12-16 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU Here this might help: Heb 1:8-10 8 But of the Son He says……. 10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; NASU The First and the Last is also spoken of here: Rev 1:17-19 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,  18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.   NASU Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.   In summary, could the answer be the only begotten Son of God?  Whoever the “I” is, spread out the heavens and his hand founded the earth and then later, the Lord God sent Him and His Spirit. LU

Kathi! Jesus is the ” I ” in those scriptures you give here. There are Scriptures that refer to the Father as ” I ” , but it is never the Father speaking. It is always the Son or an Angel.
The Scriptures you gave are good in the sense to have another look to prove the preexisting of Jesus.
There is no doubt in mind that Jesus was the one that was the firstborn of all creation. It might be hard to understand for some, when He emptied Himself and became a man. However if it is possible for a human being to become a Spirit being, why not visa verso.
Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 07 2008,10:21)

However if it is possible for a human being to become a Spirit being, why not visa verso.

Because the bible tells us that that is not the order of things. First the natural THEN the spiritual, not visa versa.

[Tiffany]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 07 2008,11:34)

Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 07 2008,10:21) However if it is possible for a human being to become a Spirit being, why not visa verso. Because the bible tells us that that is not the order of things.  First the natural THEN the spiritual, not visa versa.

Mandy That was meant for mankind, not for Jesus, since He was with God and God gave Him all powers, who was able to do so. A lot of people make the mistake and do not look at were the Scriptures are meant for.
If Jesus did not exist before the world was, you have to throw out some very important scriptures. Jesus came forth from the Father, who has a glory like the Father. John 17:5
That glory was a glorified body. To become a man He had to give that up, to be like us. He did all of this for us. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who ever believed, believed in Him, will not perish, will not perish. But have everlasting life. He send His Son into the World so that through Him we might be saved.
Noticed He send His Son into the world. He was somewhere
before He became a man. That is what Scriptures say.
Peace and Love Irene

[Author]

Posts