Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:04)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:55) Hi WJ, Jesus died. He really really died. The rest is the work of God's abiding Spirit. NH Did he who was the resurrection and the life the “eternal Spirit” die or did his flesh give up the ghost? So his soul/spirit didn't go to hades and he didn't preach to those in holding? Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26 Are you one who believes in soul sleep? If so who are the souls spoken of in Revelation and the Spirits in prison spoken of in Peter? WJ

Hi WJ,
the Son of God really really really DIED.
Scripture tells us plainly HE DIED
Just like we do.
Do you agree he died?

But the Spirit was yet in him giving him eternal life and it was by the life of the Spirit that he visited the prison[1Peter3]. This is our hope too that the Spirit of God will raise us.

Acts2
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

[Worshipping Jesus]

NH

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26

Do you have eternal life as this scripture clearly states that those who believe in him has and will never die?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,09:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:55) Hi WJ, Jesus died. He really really died. The rest is the work of God's abiding Spirit. NH Did he who was the resurrection and the life the “eternal Spirit” die or did his flesh give up the ghost? So his soul/spirit didn't go to hades and he didn't preach to those in holding? Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26 Are you one who believes in soul sleep? If so who are the souls spoken of in Revelation and the Spirits in prison spoken of in Peter? WJ Hi WJ, the Son of God really really really DIED. Scripture tells us plainly HE DIED Just like we do. Do you agree he died? But the Spirit was yet in him giving him eternal life and it was by the life of the Spirit that he visited the prison[1Peter3]. This is our hope too that the Spirit of God will raise us. Acts2 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

NH

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:55)

But the Spirit was yet in him giving him eternal life and it was by the life of the Spirit that he visited the prison[1Peter3]. This is our hope too that the Spirit of God will raise us.

Those are your words. Yeshua is and was the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father.

(For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; 1 John 5:2

Jesus said “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live”: John 11:25

Yeshau's Spirit who is and was the resurrection and the life did not die just as our spirits do not die when we leave this body of death.

WJ

WJ

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:19)

NH Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26 Do you have eternal life as this scripture clearly states that those who believe in him has and will never die?

Hi WJ,
Do you believe Jesus did not really die?
Or do you believe he died in a different way to other men?
Or do you believe we all die as he did, or just those in him do?

He is the resurrection and the life and we who share that living spirit may shed our tent but will only sleep till the abiding Spirit raises us as that Spirit of God raised Jesus.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,09:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:19) NH Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26 Do you have eternal life as this scripture clearly states that those who believe in him has and will never die? Hi WJ, Do you believe Jesus did not really die? Or do you believe he died in a different way to other men? Or do you believe we all die as he did, or just those in him do? He is the resurrection and the life and we who share that living spirit may shed our tent but will only sleep till the abiding Spirit raises us as that Spirit of God raised Jesus.

NH

Thanks for the answer.

So you do believe in soul sleep and not Jesus words…

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Did Jesus die?
He sure did.

He is the given source of eternal life by the sharing of that Spirit life that was given to him.

1Jn1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

If Jesus himself was that spirit life then we have no sharing in the Spirit of God.
His own spirit was given up at calvary
And we do have that share.

1Cor2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[RoyT01]

WJ you asked “What about Lazarus and the rich man?

Hello WJ; I know it is popular to believe in the hell fire doctrine and I assume you are bringing up the subject of Lazarus and the rich man to back this doctrine up. However, I would note some points about this parable; that Christ spoke.
It was not the point of the parable to prove the existence of hell. If it were then we would have to believe that all beggars go to heaven and all rich men go to hell, for that is the only criteria spoken of concerning their positions either up or down. Nonetheless:
The moral of the parable is that even if Christ were to bring one of the brothers out of hell that brother still would not believe the prophets or the word of God. This is pointed out by Christ in the last line of the parable.

I have to agree with NH If Christ did not die as the word tells us than who paid the ransom for the curse of death, levied by God Almighty as part of the penalty to Adam?
Gen 3:17-19
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.” NIV

Returning to dust is quite literally death.

But as the scriptures so adequately point out Christ did die therefore paying with his life to relinquish the curse of death put on the entire earth.

Matt 20:27-28
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
NIV

1 Tim 2:5-6
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men —
NIV

Heb 9:15

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance — now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
NIV

WJ; Mandy will reject any number of scriptures because she apparently feels her intellect is superior to Gods word but that is not something I have seen you do. You apparently are truly looking to find the truth behind Gods word.

RoyT01

[Proclaimer]

Thanks for your post RoyT01.

[NickHassan]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 21 2008,20:27)

WJ you asked “What about Lazarus and the rich man? Hello WJ; I know it is popular to believe in the hell fire doctrine and I assume you are bringing up the subject of Lazarus and the rich man to back this doctrine up.  However, I would note some points about this parable; that Christ spoke. It was not the point of the parable to prove the existence of hell.  If it were then we would have to believe that all beggars go to heaven and all rich men go to hell, for that is the only criteria spoken of concerning their positions either up or down.   Nonetheless: The moral of the parable is that even if Christ were to bring one of the brothers out of hell that brother still would not believe the prophets or the word of God. This is pointed out by Christ in the last line of the parable. I have to agree with NH If Christ did not die as the word tells us than who paid the ransom for the curse of death, levied by God Almighty as part of the penalty to Adam? Gen 3:17-19 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” NIV Returning to dust is quite literally death. But as the scriptures so adequately point out Christ did die therefore paying with his life  to relinquish the curse of death put on the entire earth. Matt 20:27-28 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”   NIV 1 Tim 2:5-6 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men — NIV Heb 9:15 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance — now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. NIV WJ; Mandy will reject any number of scriptures because she apparently feels her intellect is superior to Gods word but that is not something I have seen you do.  You apparently are truly looking to find the truth behind Gods word. RoyT01

Hi Roy,
you realise that Jesus was teaching about the place of waiting for judgement, HADES and not GEHENNA, the lake of fire or the SECOND DEATH.

KJV is confusing as it calls both HELL

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 21 2008,20:27)

WJ you asked “What about Lazarus and the rich man? Hello WJ; I know it is popular to believe in the hell fire doctrine and I assume you are bringing up the subject of Lazarus and the rich man to back this doctrine up.  However, I would note some points about this parable; that Christ spoke. It was not the point of the parable to prove the existence of hell.  If it were then we would have to believe that all beggars go to heaven and all rich men go to hell, for that is the only criteria spoken of concerning their positions either up or down.   Nonetheless: The moral of the parable is that even if Christ were to bring one of the brothers out of hell that brother still would not believe the prophets or the word of God. This is pointed out by Christ in the last line of the parable. I have to agree with NH If Christ did not die as the word tells us than who paid the ransom for the curse of death, levied by God Almighty as part of the penalty to Adam? Gen 3:17-19 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” NIV Returning to dust is quite literally death. But as the scriptures so adequately point out Christ did die therefore paying with his life  to relinquish the curse of death put on the entire earth. Matt 20:27-28 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”   NIV 1 Tim 2:5-6 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men — NIV Heb 9:15 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance — now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. NIV WJ; Mandy will reject any number of scriptures because she apparently feels her intellect is superior to Gods word but that is not something I have seen you do.  You apparently are truly looking to find the truth behind Gods word. RoyT01

Hi RoyT01

I think you have some misunderstanding about my beliefs.

I will answer your post, however I cannot at the moment.

Blessings WJ

[RoyT01]

Hi Nick;

You wrote…you realise that Jesus was teaching about the place of waiting for judgement, HADES and not GEHENNA, the lake of fire or the SECOND DEATH.

KJV is confusing as it calls both HELL

I don’t find the KJV confusing because I grew up understanding that hell, the grave, sheol, the pit, gehenna, all represent the same thing; the place where the dead are awaiting the resurrection. The Lake of fire I understood represents total destruction because Satan and his demons end up there; as we are told in Revelation. I would be interested to see which scriptures you use to separate gehenna, from Hadeas or the grave etc. I have heard this discussion before and comprehend it as a religious doctrine or teaching. Now the second death I realize is different and comes to those that do not pass the test at the end of Armageddon which we can expect at the conclusion of the thousand year reign of Christ.

Rev 20:5-6
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. NIV

Rev 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NIV

because of verse 14 and 15 above I can see the lake of fire being representative of total destruction

[NickHassan]

Hi Roy,
Hades is cast into the lake of fire so it is only temporary while the lake of fire is not.

YLT uses the same manuscripts as the KJV but more accurately interprets them.
Matthew 10:28
`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
44where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.

45`And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire — the unquenchable —

46where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.

Matthew 23:33
`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

[david]

Roy,
there is confusion.

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl′ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai′des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge′en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai′des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai′des it uses that same translation for ge′en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai′des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge′en·na as “hell,” as it does hai′des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

The term “Gehenna” is found twelve times in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

“I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ [thereby wrongly judging and condemning his brother as morally worthless] will be liable to the fiery Gehenna.”—Matthew 5:22.

“Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”—Matthew 10:28.

“I will indicate to you whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.”—Luke 12:5.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one you make him a subject for Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves. Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?”—Matthew 23:15, 33.

“If ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go off into Gehenna, into the fire that cannot be put out. And if your foot makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life lame than with two feet to be pitched into Gehenna. And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Gehenna, where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.”—Mark 9:43-48; see also the similarly worded passages at Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:8, 9.

“Well, the tongue is a fire. The tongue is constituted a world of unrighteousness among our members, for it spots up all the body and sets the wheel of natural life aflame and it is set aflame by Gehenna [that is, improper use of the tongue is as destructive as Gehenna; it can so affect the whole round of life into which a person comes by birth that it can lead to his meriting the judgment of Gehenna].”—James 3:6.

While these texts associate fire with Gehenna, none of them speak of any conscious existence, any suffering, after death. Rather, as shown at Matthew 10:28, Jesus pointed out that God can “destroy,” not merely the body, but the entire person, the soul, in Gehenna.

Just what is the nature of this destruction? An understanding of this is gleaned from a closer examination of the word “Gehenna.”

GEHENNA—THE VALLEY OF HINNOM

Though found in the Christian Greek Scriptures, “Gehenna” is drawn from two Hebrew words, Ga′i and Hin·nom′, meaning Valley of Hinnom. This valley lay south and southwest of Jerusalem. In the days of faithless Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh the Valley of Hinnom served as a place for idolatrous religious rites, including the abhorrent practice of child sacrifice. (2 Chronicles 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2, 6) Later, good King Josiah put a stop to the idolatrous worship carried on there and made the valley unfit to use for worship.—2 Kings 23:10.

Tradition relates that the Valley of Hinnom thereafter became a place for the disposal of garbage. And the Bible provides confirmation for this. At Jeremiah 31:40, for example, the Valley of Hinnom is evidently called the “low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes.” There was also the “Gate of the Ash-heaps,” a gate that seems to have opened out onto the eastern extremity of the Valley of Hinnom at its juncture with the Kidron Valley.—Nehemiah 3:13, 14.

That Gehenna should be linked with the destructive aspects of a city dump is in full agreement with the words of Jesus Christ. With reference to Gehenna, he said, “their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mark 9:48) His words evidently allude to the fact that fires burned continually at the city dump, perhaps being intensified by the addition of sulfur. Where the fire did not reach, worms or maggots would breed and feed on what was not consumed by fire.

In keeping with the Biblical evidence, then, Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom could appropriately serve as a symbol of destruction.

That the destruction symbolized by Gehenna is a lasting one is shown elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures. The apostle Paul, when writing to Christians at Thessalonica, said that those causing them tribulation would “undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength.”—2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.

The fire of Gehenna is therefore but a symbol of the totality and thoroughness of that destruction.

Of course, hades is the common grave of mankind, the pit, the grave. Hence, that's where Jesus was said to go when he died. He did not go to gehenna.
Acts 2:27: “You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.” (See Ps 16:10)

Gehenna is the same as the lake of fire, the second death, into which “hades” as well as death are thrown. Eventually, there will be no more death or need of the grave, the pit, (hades.), hence, it will be done away with, thrown into the fire, symbolizing complete destruction.

[david]

Quote

Rev 20:13-15 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them

The difference is, there is no hint that anyone ever comes back from gehenna. It seems to correspond with the lake of fire. But as you note, this is not true of hades.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:19)

Do you have eternal life as this scripture clearly states that those who believe in him has and will never die?

We will never die because He died for us.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 23 2008,11:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:19) Do you have eternal life as this scripture clearly states that those who believe in him has and will never die? We will never die because He died for us.

t8

True!

Then what is it when our hearts stop beating?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Surely the body is not your life?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2008,11:51)

Hi WJ, Surely the body is not your life?

NH

Will your natural (physical) life continue without your body?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 23 2008,12:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2008,11:51) Hi WJ, Surely the body is not your life? NH Will your natural (physical) life continue without your body?

NH

Or will you be considered dead?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 23 2008,12:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2008,11:51) Hi WJ, Surely the body is not your life? NH Will your natural (physical) life continue without your body?

Hi WJ,
WE sleep awaiting our new body.

[Author]

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