Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Hi,

Quote

Personally I do not see where your theology is any different than LUs then?

Well I'm sure she would beg to differ on that!

She believes, if I am remembering correctly, that Jesus was the “light” spoken out of God's mouth and that is when the son was given “birth.” He then existed. You may want to clarify these facts though? I do not believe that. I believe the Son of God began his son career when he was born, however he was with God in the beginning as the potential/future Son.

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Is there a scripture that says “God begat God”?

Not that I'm aware of. Is there a scripture that says God is made up of three persons?

Quote

If Yeshua is God of gods, then how is he not “a” god?

Jesus is the Son of THE God. So he is his offspring. What would the offspring of God be?

Love,
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:44)

Hi,   Quote Personally I do not see where your theology is any different than LUs then? Well I'm sure she would beg to differ on that!   She believes, if I am remembering correctly, that Jesus was the “light” spoken out of God's mouth and that is when the son was given “birth.”  He then existed.  You may want to clarify these facts though?  I do not believe that.  I believe the Son of God began his son career when he was born, however he was with God in the beginning as the potential/future Son. Quote Is there a scripture that says “God begat God”? Not that I'm aware of.  Is there a scripture that says God is made up of three persons? Quote If Yeshua is God of gods, then how is he not “a” god? Jesus is the Son of THE God.  So he is his offspring.  What would the offspring of God be? Love, Mandy

Not3

There clearly is scripture that says Yeshua is true God and the Apostles were not Polytheist.

Again, we are millineums apart in our basic beliefs.

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:19)

Hi brother Adam, Wow, considering you asked me “what do I mean” 5 times in a single post, I guess I certainly have confused you – sorry!   I'm trying to find places where we can be unified instead of running in opposite directions (I think we might actually get somewhere quicker in understand who Jesus is if we are more united).  Keith believes that Jesus is God, I am trying to narrow the gap between us by conceeding that I also believe Jesus is God by confirming that he is indeed the Son of God. Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God.  Nathan is Dan's son therefore he is human of very human. God begets God (it's not just for trinitarians anymore)   Just as humans beget humans and animals beget animals…. Love, Mandy

Mandy

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:19)

Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God.  Nathan is Dan's son therefore he is human of very human. God begets God (it's not just for trinitarians anymore)   Just as humans beget humans and animals beget animals….

Your logic here makes no sense because you are saying that Nathan is 100% human like his Father Dan, yet you are saying that Yeshua is not 100% God but a demi god or something like it.

If you believe Yeshua is “a god” and not “The God” then that is Polytheism.

Blessings WJ

[Irene]

Now let me get in here.
First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out.
Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”
Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created……………
verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.”
cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead.

Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”  I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed the Firstborn of all creation.

Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30  I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible.
verse 22 ” The eternal formes me first of His creation, first of all His works in days of old.”
verse 23 ” I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first when earth began.”

Please listen what it says

verse 24 I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WAS NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNTAINS OF WATER.”

verse 25 “e're He sank the basis of the Mountains, e're the hills exsisted, I WAS BORN.'

verse 26 ” when earth and fields were not created, nor the very clouds of the world.”

verse 27 ” When He set the heavens up, I WAS THERE, where He drew the Vaults o're the abyss.”

verse 28 ” when He made the clouds firm overhead, when He fixed the fountains of the deep.”

verse 29 ” When He set the bounderies of the sea, when He layed foundation of the earth.”

verse 30 “I WAS THERE WITH HIM THEN, HIS FOSTER CHILD, I was His delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.

This is so exciting to me to see all of this.

Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,08:51)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:44) Hi,   Quote Personally I do not see where your theology is any different than LUs then? Well I'm sure she would beg to differ on that!   She believes, if I am remembering correctly, that Jesus was the “light” spoken out of God's mouth and that is when the son was given “birth.”  He then existed.  You may want to clarify these facts though?  I do not believe that.  I believe the Son of God began his son career when he was born, however he was with God in the beginning as the potential/future Son. Quote Is there a scripture that says “God begat God”? Not that I'm aware of.  Is there a scripture that says God is made up of three persons? Quote If Yeshua is God of gods, then how is he not “a” god? Jesus is the Son of THE God.  So he is his offspring.  What would the offspring of God be? Love, Mandy Not3 There clearly is scripture that says Yeshua is true God and the Apostles were not Polytheist. Again, we are millineums apart in our basic beliefs. Blessings WJ

So then there isn't any scripture that says God is three persons? I know, wrong thread but I bring this up because some demand scripture for their belief but sometimes there are no clear scriptures for one's belief.

This is precisely why I am advocating see what we have in common instead of proclaiming we are “millineums apart” and so on. If there is no clear cut scripture to put us this far apart, should we want to be this far apart from our fellow Christians? Would Jesus want this?

Are the scriptures CLEAR that say Jesus is true God? Where?

Thanks,
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 19 2008,09:23)

Now let me get in here. First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out. Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind. Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.” Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created…………… verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.” cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead. Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”  I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed the Firstborn of all creation. Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30  I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible. verse 22 ” The eternal

Irene

You have posted this a milllion times and we have read it and it is ambiguous.

Firstborn does not necessarily mean the first to be born. The context of Colossians 1 shows this to be true for it also says he is the firstborn from the dead and we know Christ was not the first to rise from the dead. Paul used the same word in the context which simply means preeminence.

WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:14)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:19) Hi brother Adam, Wow, considering you asked me “what do I mean” 5 times in a single post, I guess I certainly have confused you – sorry!   I'm trying to find places where we can be unified instead of running in opposite directions (I think we might actually get somewhere quicker in understand who Jesus is if we are more united).  Keith believes that Jesus is God, I am trying to narrow the gap between us by conceeding that I also believe Jesus is God by confirming that he is indeed the Son of God. Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God.  Nathan is Dan's son therefore he is human of very human. God begets God (it's not just for trinitarians anymore)   Just as humans beget humans and animals beget animals…. Love, Mandy Mandy Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:19) Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God.  Nathan is Dan's son therefore he is human of very human. God begets God (it's not just for trinitarians anymore)   Just as humans beget humans and animals beget animals…. Your logic here makes no sense because you are saying that Nathan is 100% human like his Father Dan, yet you are saying that Yeshua is not 100% God but a demi god or something like it. If you believe Yeshua is “a god” and not “The God” then that is Polytheism. Blessings WJ

I never said that we believed exactly the same thing.

I was trying to find where we could have some commonalities in belief.

Nathan is 100% human because both of his parents are human.

Jesus cannot be 100% God because both of his parents are not God.

This logic is pretty clear, is it not?

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:27)

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 19 2008,09:23) Now let me get in here. First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out. Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind. Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.” Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created…………… verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.” cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead. Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”  I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed the Firstborn of all creation. Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30  I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible. verse 22 ” The eternal Irene You have posted this a milllion times and we have read it and it is ambiguous. Firstborn does not necessarily mean the first to be born. The context of Colossians 1 shows this to be true for it also says he is the firstborn from the dead and we know Christ was not the first to rise from the dead. Paul used the same word in the context which simply means preeminence. WJ

Agreed!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,08:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:44) Hi,   Quote Personally I do not see where your theology is any different than LUs then? Well I'm sure she would beg to differ on that!   She believes, if I am remembering correctly, that Jesus was the “light” spoken out of God's mouth and that is when the son was given “birth.”  He then existed.  You may want to clarify these facts though?  I do not believe that.  I believe the Son of God began his son career when he was born, however he was with God in the beginning as the potential/future Son. Quote Is there a scripture that says “God begat God”? Not that I'm aware of.  Is there a scripture that says God is made up of three persons? Quote If Yeshua is God of gods, then how is he not “a” god? Jesus is the Son of THE God.  So he is his offspring.  What would the offspring of God be? Love, Mandy Not3 There clearly is scripture that says Yeshua is true God and the Apostles were not Polytheist. Again, we are millineums apart in our basic beliefs. Blessings WJ So then there isn't any scripture that says God is three persons?     I know, wrong thread but I bring this up because some demand scripture for their belief but sometimes there are no clear scriptures for one's belief. This is precisely why I am advocating see what we have in common instead of proclaiming we are “millineums apart” and so on.  If there is no clear cut scripture to put us this far apart, should we want to be this far apart from our fellow Christians?  Would Jesus want this? Are the scriptures CLEAR that say Jesus is true God?  Where? Thanks, Mandy

Mandy

There are clear scriptures where the Apostles call Yeshua God.

They never in any instance ever ascribed the word “theos” to any other being other than what is false or an opposite of God.

Question is if he is God, did the Apostles mean he was “a god”?

If he is God is he “true”.

Scriptures also clearly state the Holy Spirit is God.

We know the Father is God.

Trinitarian believes as you know there is One God, three persons and One Spirit. It is true the word Trinity is not found yet the Trinitarian concept is found. Scriptures support this.

WJ  

[Not3in1]

Hello again,

Quote

There are clear scriptures where the Apostles call Yeshua God.

Perhaps, but they are not clear enough to silence the debate obviously. So there must be something about the “clear” part that is not so clear.

Quote

Question is if he is God, did the Apostles mean he was “a god”? If he is God is he “true”.

Even here it is not clear. Jesus says there is only one true God and he points us to his Father as being THAT true God. He says no one is good but HIM. Again, not clear. Should we separate ourselves from one another based on scripture that is not clear?

Quote

Scriptures also clearly state the Holy Spirit is God.

I don't think any one in their right mind would deny this. However, the debate is not whether the holy Spirit is God but rather is the Holy Spirit of separate person of God. Again, it is not clear. Should we say we are so far a part in our foundations when the foundations are not 100% clear?

Quote

We know the Father is God.

Ah, we have the same God after all! This is a sure foundation where scripture is absolutely clear. The teachings of the disciples and Jesus himself will confirm this is true and right.

Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:27)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:14) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:19) Hi brother Adam, Wow, considering you asked me “what do I mean” 5 times in a single post, I guess I certainly have confused you – sorry!   I'm trying to find places where we can be unified instead of running in opposite directions (I think we might actually get somewhere quicker in understand who Jesus is if we are more united).  Keith believes that Jesus is God, I am trying to narrow the gap between us by conceeding that I also believe Jesus is God by confirming that he is indeed the Son of God. Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God.  Nathan is Dan's son therefore he is human of very human. God begets God (it's not just for trinitarians anymore)   Just as humans beget humans and animals beget animals…. Love, Mandy Mandy Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,08:19) Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God.  Nathan is Dan's son therefore he is human of very human. God begets God (it's not just for trinitarians anymore)   Just as humans beget humans and animals beget animals…. Your logic here makes no sense because you are saying that Nathan is 100% human like his Father Dan, yet you are saying that Yeshua is not 100% God but a demi god or something like it. If you believe Yeshua is “a god” and not “The God” then that is Polytheism. Blessings WJ I never said that we believed exactly the same thing. I was trying to find where we could have some commonalities in belief. Nathan is 100% human because both of his parents are human. Jesus cannot be 100% God because both of his parents are not God. This logic is pretty clear, is it not? Thanks, Mandy

Mandy

The logic is not clear because God is Spirit. Spirit does not begat flesh.

The Spirit of Yeshua is 100% God, for the Lord is that Spirit.

The flesh or humanity of Yeshua is when he humbled himself  and came in the likeness of sinful flesh and being “found in fashion as a man” (the putting on of a flesh tent) humbled himself even to the death of his body the flesh.

Yeshua always was and always will be the “Eternal life” that was with the Father.

WJ

[Not3in1]

Hey Keith, the page bumped. Make sure you see my previous post.

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The logic is not clear because God is Spirit. Spirit does not begat flesh. The Spirit of Yeshua is 100% God, for the Lord is that Spirit.

Yes, certainly when you have a combination such as God and man you will come out with a DIVINE man. This is pure logic. Whether or not it can be trusted is unsure? I am logging hours here to see if it all pans out. So far though, it's as good a theory as yours and other's which are also based on debatable passages in the bible.

Quote

The Spirit of Yeshua is 100% God, for the Lord is that Spirit.

True. But is the Lord that “body” too? Remember he was/is the Son of God and the Son of Man…

Quote

Yeshua always was and always will be the “Eternal life” that was with the Father.

I believe this, too.

He was always hidden in God.

Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Are you speaking of the Spirit he was anointed with?
Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Or the spirit he lost at calvary?

Jn19
30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2008,09:53)

Hi not3, Are you speaking of the Spirit he was anointed with? Acts 10 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Or the spirit he lost at calvary? Jn19 30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Sorry, which part of my post are you ref'ing to?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3
“Quote
The Spirit of Yeshua is 100% God, for the Lord is that Spirit.

True. “

[Irene]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:27)

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 19 2008,09:23) Now let me get in here. First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out. Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind. Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.” Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created…………… verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.” cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead. Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”  I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed the Firstborn of all creation. Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30  I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible. verse 22 ” The eternal Irene You have posted this a milllion times and we have read it and it is ambiguous. Firstborn does not necessarily mean the first to be born. The context of Colossians 1 shows this to be true for it also says he is the firstborn from the dead and we know Christ was not the first to rise from the dead. Paul used the same word in the context which simply means preeminence. WJ

That is upsolutley bull. Look it up in the Dictonary. And Christ was the first that ever was resurrected and became a Spirit being.
You telling me that I have put this up a million times, look in the mirrow about your trinity believe.
The scriptures are not ambiguous they are clear cut, only to those that don't want to even look at them it is.
Some are jsut blind, that is all. I really mainly wrote all of this down for You Mandy.
You know I don't get angry to often, but you have just done so, thank you.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2008,09:59)

Hi not3 “Quote   The Spirit of Yeshua is 100% God, for the Lord is that Spirit. True. “

Oh, Gotcha.

Sorry, I meant true in that I see where he gets that from the below passage:

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

[Not3in1]

Irene,
Don't get too angry, I'll I meant to agree with is that these verse can be (and have) been interpreted differently. That's all. So in other words, they cannot be quoted as being concrete evidence.
Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
You which is that Spirit-anointed or natural?
WJ believes Christ is and always was a powerful Spirit God.
WJ does not really believe in the anointing of one member of his trinity with another.

But Christ Jesus was MADE a LIVING SPIRIT

[Not3in1]

Irene and other's,

Really this has been my point today and it has been made clear by Irene, WJ and myself……no teaching is absolutely clear. Only that THE FATHER IS GOD.

Should we really separate ourselves from one another so readily when our views cannot be proven 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt?

[Author]

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