Preexistence

[RoyT01]

Hello David Thank you for your post I am impressed with the fulness of your comments. Your argument is well thought out.

RoyT01

[NickHassan]

HI LU,
Nonetheless whatever was in him he brought for us from God-grace
the way, light, truth, life, power, resurrection.

He was a vessel for God's purposes.

[RoyT01]

Hi Nick; Again There is only one God But That one Almighty God decided to give birth to a son, That Almighty God tells us this, in fact he went to great trouble to tell us that as lightenup is pointing out at the transfiguration and to completely understand that event one has to go back a few scripture to see the reason for it happening.

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, who do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. KJV
(The KJV is using Barjona because it was Peter’s Aramaic name)
Mark 9:2-6
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. NIV

The question here is why. What were they talking about? It does not matter if we were suppose to know we would have been told but Elijah and Moses are there to show us Christ was not Elijah or a prophet or Willy or Billy or Fritz standing there in all his radiance was Gods only begotten Son!
Mark 9:7
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!” NIV

When that One God said “LISTEN TO HIM” That was not a request.
Did that only begotten son of God labor under His Fathers direction to complete creation; Yes He did
Now why you see that statement by the only true God as a trinity I don’t know but it has nothing to do with that man made doctrine. In fact to verify that look at what Christ is saying in:
John 17:3
3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. NIV

Notice that one third of the supposed trinity is telling us that His Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Which makes the trinity kind of fall apart doesn’t it.

Now I have answered your question a number of times and have done so in English using scripture from an English Bible, And neither I nor the Bible are in any way evasive.

Roy T01

[RoyT01]

Sotty Nick meant That post for Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi Roy,
What trinity?
As you say Christ is the son of God.
What he did and said was the works and words of God in his vessel.
He brought nothing to earth that gave him a head start of those who must follow him.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Roy,
Where is it written that One God gave birth to a son ? So you believe God can have some material substance in Him to pass on to human Jesus ? Can any one born to woman be God or begotten God if so in what way ? It seems to me that you believe Paganism which believes Gods have sex with human women and beget demi-gods or gods like in Hinduism or Grecian mytholology but not in Biblical Monotheism.

Please take care
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 14 2008,15:40)

Notice that one third of the supposed trinity is telling us that His Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Which makes the trinity kind of fall apart doesn’t it.

Yep. That is one way to put it.

Nice one.

[pulivarthy]

dear adam,& all,

Jesus existed in the past eternity as child (isaiah 9:6)in God,the father.Th father used to have exchange of words with his beloved child existed in his bosom.so, jesus' existance is not of this age,and of past ,but from prime eternity to endless/future eternity.he is same yesterday,today and for ever.now he sitting beside the father after having brought forth (exhibited)to do that, till Jesus' enemies are defeated.After that ,again, what will happen is shut up by God.
psb.

[RoyT01]

Adam I have no idea what you are rabling on about. In fact I doubt you do either.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 14 2008,15:40)

Hi Nick; Again There is only one God But That one Almighty God decided to give birth to a son, That Almighty God tells us this, in fact he went to great trouble to tell us that as lightenup is pointing out at the transfiguration and to completely understand that event one has to go back a few scripture to see the reason for it happening.                                                                     Matt 16:13-17 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, who do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.  KJV (The KJV is using Barjona because it was Peter’s Aramaic name)                                                                       Mark 9:2-6 2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.  NIV The question here is why.  What were they talking about?   It does not matter if we were suppose to know we would have been told but Elijah and Moses are there to show us Christ was not Elijah or a prophet or Willy or Billy or Fritz standing there in all his radiance was Gods only begotten Son!                                                                     Mark 9:7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!” NIV When that One God said “LISTEN TO HIM” That was not a request. Did that only begotten son of God labor under His Fathers direction to complete creation; Yes He did Now why you see that statement by the only true God as a trinity I don’t know but it has nothing to do with that man made doctrine. In fact to verify that look at what Christ is saying in:                                                                  John 17:3 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. NIV Notice that one third of the supposed trinity is telling us that His Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Which makes the trinity kind of fall apart doesn’t it. Now I have answered your question a number of times and have done so in English using scripture from an English Bible, And neither I nor the Bible are in any way evasive. Roy T01

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 14 2008,15:40)

Notice that one third of the supposed trinity is telling us that His Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Which makes the trinity kind of fall apart doesn’t it.

Hi Roy

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

God being with God kind of makes Henotheism, and Arianism and Unitarainism fall apart doesn't it, unless you are a Polytheist?

WJ

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Roy,
So you say I am rambling or rabling, but I ask you in what way you differ from Trinitarian or Arian who also believe in two persons that were in the beginning who created this earth ? because you seem to teach some new ideas to our brothers and sisters here which secretly profess Polytheism.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi all!

Has anyone noticed that in a little over a year this thread has over 400 pages?

The Trinity thread which is over 6 years old has only 1151 pages. There may be some truth to the claim that those who hold to the preexistence of Yeshua is related to the Trinitarian view.

Thanks Mandy for starting this thread. His preexistence could be the key. God with God!  

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2008,07:54)

Hi all! Has anyone noticed that in a little over a year this thread has over 400 pages? The Trinity thread which is over 6 years old has only 1151 pages. There may be some truth to the claim that those who hold to the preexistence of Yeshua is related to the Trinitarian view. Thanks Mandy for starting this thread. His preexistence could be the key. God with God!   Blessings WJ

Hi WJ and all,
Good point, I believe that His pre-existence is key. Most High God with Begotten God.
LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 14 2008,07:51)

Hi brother Roy, So  you say I am rambling or rabling, but I ask you in what way you differ from Trinitarian or Arian who also believe in two persons that were in the beginning who created this earth ? because you seem to teach some new ideas to our brothers and sisters here which secretly profess Polytheism.

Hi Adam,
Please do not be offended but you do sound like a broken record. You are continually making the same point of there being one God. You are correct in the sense of the Father as being the only one that always existed and hence, the Most High God, you are right and most on here agree with you. What you don't seem to realize is that when I refer to the Son of God as the Begotten God, I am not equating Him with that One True Most High God, for He will never be His equal. No need to keep repeating that over and over. I am not making another Most High God.

Regarding the point that you also keep bringing up refers to God saying that He alone created everything. We also read that all things were created through the Son of God. You have reconciled the two truths to say that all things were created through the plan that God has regarding the Son, with Him in mind.

Others reconcile the two truths differently and you can't seem to consider anything else to be possible and I sense that you are becoming miserable. I am sorry that you are going through a rough time of it.

I purpose that in the passages referring to God being alone in creation, that poetically, the Son of God is spoken of figuratively as the “hand” or “right hand” of the LORD.

Please review these verses that speak of the “hand” or “right hand” of God. I believe that this is usually symbolic and not literal.
118:16
The right hand of the LORD is exalted; The right hand of the LORD does valiantly

Book of Psalm
89:13
You have a strong arm; Your hand is mighty, Your right hand is exalted.

Is 41:10 `Do not fear, for I am with you;
Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you, surely I will help you,
Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.

Is 41:20 That they may see and recognize,
And consider and gain insight as well,
That the hand of the LORD has done this,
And the Holy One of Israel has created it.

Is 66:14
Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad, And your bones will flourish like the new grass; And the hand of the LORD will be made known to His servants, But He will be indignant toward His enemies.

Please allow a window to open to shed some light here.
Kathi

[Irene]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2008,03:09)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 14 2008,07:51) Hi brother Roy, So  you say I am rambling or rabling, but I ask you in what way you differ from Trinitarian or Arian who also believe in two persons that were in the beginning who created this earth ? because you seem to teach some new ideas to our brothers and sisters here which secretly profess Polytheism. Hi Adam, Please do not be offended but you do sound like a broken record.  You are continually making the same point of there being one God. You are correct in the sense of the Father as being the only one that always existed and hence, the Most High God, you are right and most on here agree with you.  What you don't seem to realize is that when I refer to the Son of God as the Begotten God, I am not equating Him with that One True Most High God, for He will never be His equal. No need to keep repeating that over and over. I am not making another Most High God. Regarding the point that you also keep bringing up refers to God saying that He alone created everything.  We also read that all things were created through the Son of God.  You have reconciled the two truths to say that all things were created through the plan that God has regarding the Son, with Him in mind. Others reconcile the two truths differently and you can't seem to consider anything else to be possible and I sense that you are becoming miserable.  I am sorry that you are going through a rough time of it. I purpose that in the passages referring to God being alone in creation, that poetically, the Son of God is spoken of figuratively as the “hand” or “right hand” of the LORD. Please review these verses that speak of the “hand” or “right hand” of God.  I believe that this is usually symbolic and not literal. 118:16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted; The right hand of the LORD does valiantly Book of Psalm 89:13 You have a strong arm; Your hand is mighty, Your right hand is exalted. Is 41:10 `Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand. Is 41:20 That they may see and recognize, And consider and gain insight as well, That the hand of the LORD has done this, And the Holy One of Israel has created it. Is 66:14 Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad, And your bones  will flourish like the new grass; And the hand of the LORD will be made known to His servants, But He will be indignant toward His enemies. Please allow a window to open to shed some light here. Kathi

Kathi! Good post. I would like to add this about our God. When you see LORD and Lord there is a difference. When in capital letters it is the Almighty God, Jehovah. When in small letters it is Christ Jesus. The translators were afraid to spell His Name wrong so they used LORD and God rather then Jehovah.
Adam I hope that you start to understand this, because Kathi has explained it for you so nicely.
Love you both
Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2008,23:54)

Hi all! Has anyone noticed that in a little over a year this thread has over 400 pages? The Trinity thread which is over 6 years old has only 1151 pages. There may be some truth to the claim that those who hold to the preexistence of Yeshua is related to the Trinitarian view. Thanks Mandy for starting this thread. His preexistence could be the key. God with God!   Blessings WJ

Hey brother Keith!

I was just thinking about you yesterday and wondering where you had been? And I also was thinking the exact same thoughts about this thread!

I've remained a bit quiet on this topic because I'm listening in on other's views. It's interesting how many different views we have here. It's also interesting that most everyone feels that God has given them a revelation regarding their particular belief. I'm still a bit confused about that?

Preexistence determines who and what Jesus is, imo. Get this right and we have an idea about the other topics.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Hi Kathi,

Perhaps Adam is pointing out the fact that the Almighty has told us that there is no God beside him?

Deuteronomy 32:39
“See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

I'm wondering, if Jesus is the “begotten God”, would God have said, “There is no God beside me except for my Son who is the begotten God.” I'm not sure about this.

Sometimes I wonder if we put scriptures together based on various translations (that *could be* tampered with) and determine that Jesus is a “god/God”? That is why I was asking you about the Greek before to see if it panned out or not.

I guess when one or two scriptures counter what other's are saying, it deserves some care. Clearly the OT scriptures above are telling us that there is NO GOD BESIDE THE ALMIGHTY GOD, this would include a begotton God, imo.

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 14 2008,23:19)

Adam    I have no idea what you are rabling on about. In fact I doubt you do either.

Roy,

May I gently remind you that Adam is our dear brother in the Lord. He is a truth seeker as we all should be. Each of us come from different backgrounds and have been given different tools to work with. Patience is always needed and appreciated. Also, Adam comes from a different culture, I'm not sure if you are aware of this? Heavennet is international.

Thanks,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Mandy,
Thanks for your helping hand to me. Infact you uttered my words because of the unity of Spirit of God. You are right in saying there can be no God besides the one and only God as told by our Lord Jesus in Jn 5:44

“How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?”

Our sister Kathi has commented my quotes as broken record which keep on revolving round this One God because there is no God besides Him even a begotten God as she often claims. I know this is your favourite thread and even mine by this time you might have known it. Understanding this truth bases for understanding the nature of Jesus. Here most of our brothers and Sisters claim the literal preexistence of Jesus but they seem to differ from trinity. By this time you might have understood how fake their logics are if they believe the Monotheism of the Bible which does not believe any other person besides the only God in the beginning who created this universe. If they say Jesus is the creator then Jesus must be wrong in saying “But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female” in Mk 10:6. Where did he ever say that he was involved in the creation ?

You are absolutely right in saying human writers had made a big mess of the scriptures by adding their human mind in understanding the God of the Bible. That's why some say God alone created this universe and yet some say “no no Jesus was involved in creation” then which one is false. I believe One God created this whole universe for the sake of His beloved Son Jesus even before he was actually born. He made this beloved son as the first born or first in rank in this whole creation not that he was mystically born before all creation from the womb of God as our Sis Kathi claim here. Jesus has become the Son of God as God has caused him to be conceived by the Holy Spirit and filled him with His Spirit in full measure. There is only One God in this whole universe and also there is one mediator between God and men who is Jesus the Christ who himself is human ( 1 Tim 2:5). Hope you will understand my agony.

Love to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 15 2008,04:50)

I believe One God created this whole universe for the sake of His beloved Son Jesus even before he was actually born.

Adam,

I agree and couldn't have said it better. Everything our Father has created has been for his beloved Son. And because his Son is our reconciliation…it's all for us, too! Praise God!

Love,
Mandy

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