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Hi ,
Jn6
61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 11 2008,15:37) I might also be able to help “lightenup explain “tough” love although I’m sure she doesn’t need my help. If a brother or sister saw you walking blindly towards the edge of a cliff they might hurt your arm yanking you back from the precipice but not pulling you away from that edge would not only be an act of no love, it would actually be an evil action.
Hi Roy,Oh, I agree with you. But I think that to a large degree that so-called tough love is abused on the side of pride more than it is employed for the reasons you state. After all, who can judge who's beliefs are closer to the edge than other's beliefs? You see where I'm going with this (maybe over the edge?)
N'ff said. Just try to be kind. 
Love,
MandyMandy you ask an interesting question of Irene by saying Why would Christ need to be adopted and Irene answered that proverbs 8 30 in the Moffat translation says in proverbs 8:30 “I was with him His foster child.” Which it does Yet the Septuagint at proverbs 8:30 says “I was harmonizing with him” meaning God Almighty. The copy write for the Moffat translation was issued in 1922. The copy write for the Septuagint was rendered in 1954. However, the Septuagint was translated in 1954 from a copy of Charles Thomson who was the Secretary of the continental congress of the United States 1774-1789
Nonetheless, other versions state verse 30 as follows …Prov 8:30
0 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
NASBProv 8:30
30 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.
NLTProv 8:30
0 then I was beside him, like a master workman;
and I was daily his delight,
RSVProv 8:30
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
NIVProv 8:30
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
NKJVProv 8:30
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
NASUProv 8:30
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
KJVProv 8:30
30 Then I was by him, (as) a master workman; And I was daily (his) delight, Rejoicing always before him,
ASVProv 8:30
0 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
NASBProv 8:30
0 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence
NLTProv 8:30
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman;
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
RSV
Notice all the versions above say Christ was Gods delight except the NIV which says Christ was delighted. I find this interesting and will look into it furtherRoyT01
Quote (Irene @ Aug. 10 2008,16:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,08:22) Quote (Irene @ Aug. 10 2008,07:24) Kathi! I do have a Question for you? You say that God did not create Jesus. Born means simple brought into existing. God created Jesus and through Him He created everything else.
Rev. 3:14 ..” These things says the Amen, the Faithful, and true Witness, the Beginning of all creation.”
And also in Col. 1:15 It says ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
In both verses it says creation. Even tho to me it makes not to much difference how How God created Jesus, but that He was the firstborn of all creation is what is important.IMOPeace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
In order to answer your question, I want to ask you whether you think that “created” means the same as “born”.
Let me know so that I can answer your question.
Love,
Kathi
Kathi! I looked up created in my Webster Dict. and it says that create means to come into existence, to make , to produce. Since Jesus is the only one that came forth from the Father, He certainly came about in a different way, then all other creation of God. He was created or brought into existence the same way all the other Angels brought into existence. The difference is the Son was brought into existence by the Father personally, He adopted Him as His only Son, His only begotten Son. He did not do so with the other Angels. He was the firstborn of all creation. He also created all, by the power of the Father, of course. We have to remember that the Father Jehovah is the power behind all.
That is how I see it.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
I purpose that when the term “firstborn” is used of the Son of God it is comparable to the sacrificial unblemished “firstborn” lamb. Just what did it mean to be the firstborn lamb? It was the first to open the womb. Jesus is the “sacrificial lamb of God,” the first to open His womb. He was the only one to come from the womb of God literally.The firstborn Son of God was the first to open the womb of God.
The firstborn sacrificial lamb was the first to open the womb of a ewe.Since the world was created through the firstborn Son, He had to have come out of the womb before anything was created in heaven or on earth.
Nothing else that came about during creation came out of a womb.
That is the difference between being created and being born as I see it.
Love and joy,
KathiRoy,
Thank you for taking the time to copy the verses. It is indeed interesting to see all the translations (this has always facinated me). I'll look forward to hearing what you think.
Love,
MandyHi brother Roy,
You still skip my questions to prove your Trinity ideology. No problem I don't think you can prove your preexistence of Jesus by any verses from the Bible beyond doubt. The same thing is true with me who believe no literal preexistence of souls or Jesus. If so we prove Mormonism which believe every thing what you say.How many persons of God were there in the beginning and How many Gods created this universe if you believe Jesus being the begotten God besides the One God ? So you judge me that I am misinterpreting scriptures by not believing so called preexistence or Trinity or Arianism. All these ISMs have made the God of the Bible into mystery and Poly deviated from the Jewish Monotheism. I understand God and Jesus in totality of the scriptures not by bit and parts like many are doing here.
Please understand my agony if you can.
thanks
Adamphilippians 2:6-8
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
according to this ,(being made in human likeness), jesus was pre-existing with God in some form that exactly represents God himself( it could be son of God form or replica of God himself).That form only was made to put on flesh and blood and appear as a son of man.Therefore son God became son of man after putting on flesh and blood.
what you all say? jesus was God himself or a replica of God for appearances of God before becoming a son of man,jesus christ.
psbGood post Pulivarthy,
You ask:
“what you all say? jesus was God himself or a replica of God for appearances of God before becoming a son of man,jesus christ.”When we think of reproduction, well, you and I are reproductions. That process happened in the womb. We aren't our parents, we are like our parents and of our parents but we are definetly not our parents themselves. We can be like them in nearly every way but one way that we can never be like them is that we can never be alive or dead as long as them for they definetly had a head start on us.
So, I believe that the Son of God was reproduced also…a literal son born out of the womb of God and only one to be reproduced in that way. I believe that He dwelt in some type of heavenly body then and also does now. While He lived among men, He emptied Himself of His noble birth privileges and exchanged the glory of His heavenly body for the glory of the earthly body. It was through that earthly body that He suffered and died and paid the penalty of death. He was the innerman of that baby within Mary with all the limits of being a baby, without memory and having to learn all over again about things. The thing that was consistent was that He had the Spirit of the Son of God in Him, a spirit that was perfect and without fault, a holy spirit and one that had existed since before the creation and one that clearly looked to and had perfect trust and faith in God as His literal Father.
IMO anyway,
KathiQuote (pulivarthy @ Aug. 11 2008,23:41) philippians 2:6-8
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
according to this ,(being made in human likeness), jesus was pre-existing with God in some form that exactly represents God himself( it could be son of God form or replica of God himself).That form only was made to put on flesh and blood and appear as a son of man.Therefore son God became son of man after putting on flesh and blood.
what you all say? jesus was God himself or a replica of God for appearances of God before becoming a son of man,jesus christ.
psb
Welcome, It is always good to see that somebody else understands that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, and was there with the Father before the world was. How the Father brought Jesus forth or what glory He has with the Father, is it really revealed how? He was a Spirit being IMO He was nade in the image of the invisible God it says in Col. 1:15
Webster Dictionary says create means to make to produce. I believe that the Father created the Son in His image. Then the Son emptied Himself and became a Man.
Peace and Love IreneMandy I have no idea how you arrived at the conclussion that I believe in the trinity, but I not only don't accept that man made doctrine but I consider it an insult to both the Father and the son
RoyT01
Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 12 2008,04:22) Mandy I have no idea how you arrived at the conclussion that I believe in the trinity, but I not only don't accept that man made doctrine but I consider it an insult to both the Father and the son RoyT01
I am so happy to hear that You don't believe in the trinity. Yes, especially the daily Masses that are being read daily I find such an abomination to our Father and His Son.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 12 2008,04:22) Mandy I have no idea how you arrived at the conclussion that I believe in the trinity, but I not only don't accept that man made doctrine but I consider it an insult to both the Father and the son RoyT01
Huh? I'm confused?I never said that I thought you believed in the Trinity? You must have me mixed up with someone else, maybe? I think perhaps you were talking to Adam and meant this this post for him? As you can see from my screen name, I am not a believer of the Trinity.
Love,
MandyThe other day, our member Before Time, related the purpose of God in creating the universe which was to give a home for mankind to self perpetuate supplying God Almighty with a constant pool from which he could and would resurrect, and adopt into a spiritual family of brothers and sisters for his only begotten Son whom He had sent to earth in AD 4 as our Christ. The question here is why? What did that accomplish as far as God Almighty was concerned?
Well, it accomplished a great many things. For Christ had also brought a number of things, His Father had sent, with him. To begin with He brought salvation for all mankind; he also brought the renewed gift of eternal life, he also brought the final law of grace which he uses to wipe clean our plates of sin and finally The Almighty caused our king and eternal high priest to actually become part of and actually share the bloodline of humanity. So that he can without any question or doubt repeat the following
Mark 3:35
35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.” NIVThe Almighty is offering eternal life through His only begotten Son. John 3:16
God does not insist that you accept that gift but if you want it God does insist that you must accept His only begotten son as your king and eternal high priest.
It is impossible for man to find fault in this demand since God also demanded from the angels, who were made a little higher than man…Heb 1:6
6 “… “Let all God's angels worship him.” NIVForgive me Mandy you are right I did mean that post for Adam because he wrote
“You still skip my questions to prove your Trinity ideology.”
Adam you have been given many sciptures concerning Christ's preexistence by myself and others. You just don' want to believe them but none of those scriptures has anything to do with the false doctrine of a three headed God. I have a son who lives in New York. But he is not me And I am not him. He is my son who I am quite proud of… see how it works.
Although, in retrospect, I guess I can see your mistaken relationship because Constantine used that arguement to introduce that idea into the Catholic Church in 324 AD but then that church spent the better part of 500 years arguing over how many angels would fit on the head of a pin? So how serious can one take their debates. Also constantine was baptised on his deathbed because he never was a Christian but believed in a three headed god called something like Pholymare, I don't recall exactly but then again Who Cares? Constantine was a Roman Emporer who put individual Christian churches together under one head …His, and he did this for power not for God.
RoyT01
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