Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Quote (pulivarthy @ Aug. 06 2008,19:49)

Word became flesh ,means God,'Iam' bacame flesh.After that God himself was identified as'Jesus'.

Not quite true, after the word was made flesh, “God” was still identified as the FATHER.

1 Cor. 8:6

I am a bit familiar with the Oneness doctrine and it does have many holes if you are interested in exploring it. There are threads here that deal with that brand of faith. Are you a Oneness believer?

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Hi Roy and welcome!

You have given a thought provoking post, thank you!

Quote

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (What creation is this speaking of? clearly it is referring to the same creation spoken of in Genesis 1:1.

I believe you are correct. The reason, imo, Jesus is referred to as the firstborn of this creation is because he is unique – there is no one like him. We will eventually be like him (after we die, are resurrected, and receive our adoption as sons into the family), but he was the only one to ever be conceived and born of God and man.

In other words, Jesus is the firstborn of this new race of men.

Quote

Since this is already an occomplished fact why, I ponder, would God want to do it all over again?

A couple of reasons but as it pertains to this topic of firstborn, I believe it is because we who are alive now are mere men. We must die and be resurrected to follow Christ. He is the first of a new man, we must follow and be re-born into that status.

This is my view on this, realize it is not necessarily popular here.

Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2008,20:18)

Quote (pulivarthy @ Aug. 06 2008,03:49) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 06 2008,15:42) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,20:02) Hi Sis Mandy, Thanks for your response. Believe me there is no external source from where I am getting these interpretations, in fact I am trying to understand Jesus from a different angle. As I have already mentioned they are only my opinions for the present certainly I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt. Your way of telling God involved with Mary in conception of Jesus by giving His sperm or DNA is some thing I am not able to digest. How can an immortal Spirit being God can possess a mortal sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Mary? I am only trying to understand Jesus as God declared him as His beloved son at Jordan on his anointing by the Holy Spirit. God can have relationship with his children by His own nature that is Spirit not flesh and blood or DNA. You have also not agreed with me that Jesus became a part of this present creation through his birth on this earth but has become first born in rank by his preeminence by God the creator. If you believe Jesus is the first born only of the new creation then how can he become God's literal son when he was born of Mary? You seem to say his natural birth is of no significance here. How do you understand Israel being the first born of God as mentioned in Ex 4:22 if you say Jesus is only first born of God ? “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn”. I believe Jesus is the first born in this whole creation both the present and New by the rank but not in the order of birth. Love to you Adam How about this post to you Mandy? according to john 1:1-14, God identified himself as Word(in the past eternity'I am'). Word became flesh ,means God,'Iam' bacame flesh.After that God himself was identified as'Jesus'.Though God was a spirit  being, he himself identied as 'word ' and also as jesus christ that has life/light.therefore God can get his identification by his word only, whether it could be through prophets or angels and finally he,word himself.So, jesus was preexisting in the God( a personality for his thoughts) and god revealed it throgh jesus christ. pulivarthy sarath babu Welcome Pulivarthy, I hope we treat you well here at heaven.net. I have a different idea of John 1:1 In the beginning was the word (“Let there be light” was the first word from God in the beginning) And the word was with God, (And the light was with God) And the word was God. (And the light was God, the begotten God)….. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us. (And the light became flesh and dwelt among us.)… Jesus is the true light and the begotten God. Jesus was the “light of the world” from the beginning but not recognized or fully revealed till the right time.  The light was revealed in Christ. That is my understanding. God bless you Pulivarthy Sarath Babu LU/Kathi/Lightenup

Yes, let me also share my unique view for comparison. I will use my husband, DAN, and my son, NATHAN, as examples in the following:

In the beginning was the word
(in the beginning was Nathan)

And the word was with God,
(and Nathan was with Dan)

And the word was God.
(and Nathan was Dan).

And the word became flesh and dwelt among us.
(and Nathan became flesh and dwelt among us.)

Jesus existed in God (not literally as any alive being) but as the potential, future Son. In this way, he could be spoken of as being “with” God, and being God in the beginning.

[Lightenup]

Hi Roy,
Glad you are here. Maybe you can help us turn a corner or two around here Your insight is welcome!!
God bless,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
So the Word was not with God but in Him?

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 06 2008,15:37)

Col 1:15-20 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (What creation is this speaking of? clearly it is referring to the same creation spoken of in Genesis 1:1. How can we know this? Because this is confirmed by the next verse in Col 1:16 which is clearly speaking in the past tense 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. NIV (notice All things WERE created; in other words they are already here.   Including powers rulers or authorities which causes me to wonder what or who they would be in the supposed new creation you folks speak of. It also makes me wonder why you think The Almighty creator made a some sort of mistake with the first creation that would  nesesitate His rebuilding a new creation?)

Greetings Roy T01

Verse 16 is actually speaking about the future coming Kingdom.
Verse 13 states “hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:“

The Kingdom has yet to come in actuality.
Therefore verse 16 speaks of whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:

That is the context! Not Sun, Moon, or Stars; Birds and Animals; Vegetation as in the Genesis creation.

But rather, thrones/dominions/powers which will be manifested in the future Coming Kingdom, in which the saints are translated now spiritually; but will not inherit literally until the coming of Christ.

Yes, all things, GOD Almighty created with His Son in view; seeing that His Son will be the heir and king of the Coming Kingdom.

Thus GOD Almighty created all these things [thrones, dominions, principalities, powers] through His Son, and for His Son; For in His Son were all these things created, both in heaven and earth.

It is not that GOD made any mistakes.
It is that this present world is marred with sin, evil and death; hence we are in the present evil age [Gal 1.4]

This necessitates the need for a new age/creation/heavens/earth.
So at Christ's Coming, all things will change. [Rev 11.15]

See also

http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/colossians.htm

[NickHassan]

Hi AP,
The full expression of that kingdom certainly has yet to be seen.
But the king rode on the donkey into Jerusalem and men are forcing their way into the kingdom now.

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Jn12
13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Luke 16:16
” The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

[RoyT01]

Hello Adam Pastor Let me begin my comments to you with a quote from the Encarata Encyclopedia…

(Most mythologies view the process of creation as belonging to the distant past. Some mythological traditions, however, present creation as a continuing cycle of birth and destruction, as in Hindu tradition or in the belief of the native peoples of Central America in the so-called Five Suns that governed successive worlds (see Hinduism; Pre-Columbian Religions).
Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

I know you view your religion as a new wave of thought, something you feel is very modern, but as you can see there is nothing new about it. In fact it is as old as evil is in the history of man on this earth.
you stated…The Kingdom has yet to come in actuality.Therefore according to you it is not speaking of the sun ,moon stars,etc.
Therefore verse 16 speaks of whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
I suggest that you reread that verse here it is again

Col 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. NIV
again the subject of the verse is creation; a creation brought about by the only begotten son we were just told about in the previous verse.

All that creation would have included the sun, the moon, the stars, the vegetables God gave us for food, the kings,Queens, and all the rest you dismiss as though God did not know what he was talking about when He had the Bible written.

So we can understand one another in the future The Almighty spent roughly 1400 years using approxamatly 40 different men to explain within His written word, for all mankind, What He is doing,why He is doing it and how we, mankind fit into His plans. This being the case I don't think there is anything you or I or anyone else could add add or subtract that would be of any value.

I would be happy to discuss The kingdom of God with you for that was the main theme Christ preached but I will not accept your process of trying to dismiss one scripture by using another. All scripture harmonizes with all others. God not only saw to it that was done but He had them all put there for specific reasons.
So let me begin this kingdom discussion by asking you what you feel Gods kingdom is?

By The way I wish to apologize to all readers. I recently suffered a minor stroke that has left me with poor control of my left hand which makes typing difficult It is getting better Which I literally thank God for. But if my spelling is bad it is not because I spell poorly but because I did not proof read well enough. Besides my keyboard ssssstttttutters
RoyT01

[gollamudi]

Hi Roy,
Welcome to this wonderful family of God called Heavennet. You will enjoy debate and arguments on different topics.
Peace to you
Adam

[pulivarthy]

hi Roy,
welcome,i agree with you. We can't prove anything which people could not prove for last 2000 or more years, as for doctrines framed or being framed by humans.therefore, let us keep our concentration jesus through whom we can see kingdom of God.
pulivarthy

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 06 2008,12:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2008,20:18) Quote (pulivarthy @ Aug. 06 2008,03:49) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 06 2008,15:42) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,20:02) Hi Sis Mandy, Thanks for your response. Believe me there is no external source from where I am getting these interpretations, in fact I am trying to understand Jesus from a different angle. As I have already mentioned they are only my opinions for the present certainly I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt. Your way of telling God involved with Mary in conception of Jesus by giving His sperm or DNA is some thing I am not able to digest. How can an immortal Spirit being God can possess a mortal sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Mary? I am only trying to understand Jesus as God declared him as His beloved son at Jordan on his anointing by the Holy Spirit. God can have relationship with his children by His own nature that is Spirit not flesh and blood or DNA. You have also not agreed with me that Jesus became a part of this present creation through his birth on this earth but has become first born in rank by his preeminence by God the creator. If you believe Jesus is the first born only of the new creation then how can he become God's literal son when he was born of Mary? You seem to say his natural birth is of no significance here. How do you understand Israel being the first born of God as mentioned in Ex 4:22 if you say Jesus is only first born of God ? “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn”. I believe Jesus is the first born in this whole creation both the present and New by the rank but not in the order of birth. Love to you Adam How about this post to you Mandy? according to john 1:1-14, God identified himself as Word(in the past eternity'I am'). Word became flesh ,means God,'Iam' bacame flesh.After that God himself was identified as'Jesus'.Though God was a spirit  being, he himself identied as 'word ' and also as jesus christ that has life/light.therefore God can get his identification by his word only, whether it could be through prophets or angels and finally he,word himself.So, jesus was preexisting in the God( a personality for his thoughts) and god revealed it throgh jesus christ. pulivarthy sarath babu Welcome Pulivarthy, I hope we treat you well here at heaven.net. I have a different idea of John 1:1 In the beginning was the word (“Let there be light” was the first word from God in the beginning) And the word was with God, (And the light was with God) And the word was God. (And the light was God, the begotten God)….. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us. (And the light became flesh and dwelt among us.)… Jesus is the true light and the begotten God. Jesus was the “light of the world” from the beginning but not recognized or fully revealed till the right time.  The light was revealed in Christ. That is my understanding. God bless you Pulivarthy Sarath Babu LU/Kathi/Lightenup Yes, let me also share my unique view for comparison.  I will use my husband, DAN, and my son, NATHAN, as examples in the following: In the beginning was the word (in the beginning was Nathan) And the word was with God, (and Nathan was with Dan) And the word was God. (and Nathan was Dan). And the word became flesh and dwelt among us. (and Nathan became flesh and dwelt among us.) Jesus existed in God (not literally as any alive being) but as the potential, future Son.  In this way, he could be spoken of as being “with” God, and being God in the beginning.

Hi Mandy,
I hope you don't feel this as intrusive but let's take your explanation and substitute your son's name for “Son” and your husband's name for “father” and see what happens.

In the beginning was the word
(in the beginning was Nathan)
(In the beginning was the Son)

And the word was with God,
(and Nathan was with Dan)
(And the Son was with Father)

And the word was God.
(and Nathan was Dan).
(And the Son was Father.)

And the word became flesh and dwelt among us.
(and Nathan became flesh and dwelt among us.)
(And the Son became flesh and dwelt among us.)

Does that build a case for the “Oneness” religion??? “the Son was Father”

Of course you know that I do not agree with the Oneness religion and I know that you don't either.

Just some thoughts,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

No, I don't see it as being a Oneness belief. Their ideas go way beyond what I believe here.  But your substitutions sound correct to me!  😉

We all start from someone.  It is not beyond the stretch of reason to say that a son starts with his Father.  Indeed the male contributes the gene that determines the sex of the child, even.  You've heard of the saying, “He's a chip off the old block”?  I believe this literally about Jesus.
Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2008,07:39)

Hi not3, So the Word was not with God but in Him?

How many different ways do you suppose we could interpret, “…with him….”?

Was he physically with him?
Was he spiritually with him?
Was he a part of him and so with him?

[RoyT01]

First, I would like to thank all those who welcomed me to Heaven net. Second I have looked at the many comments on the debate of the preexistence of the only begotten Son of God. Everyone seems to have There own concepts and ideas concerning this event which took place before our universe was begun. However, that debate was settled By our Lord and Christ during a prayer to His father when he was here on earth completing what had been preordained by the Father before the creation of our universe was even started This is Christ speaking in a prayer to his Father

John 17:4-5
4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

And just to make sure we understand what he is saying he confirms that preexistence in later verse in that same chapter of John

John 17:24
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
NIV

Since or Lord is referring to his glory in a time before creation was instigated by his Father and himself why should we doubt his credabiliy by saying we know more than he does about something only He an d His father were present for.

I am happy to be here in heaven Net because you all seem to be looking to underststand What our Creator has told us in His wondrous word

[Not3in1]

Hi Roy,
I have some comments and some scripture I'd like to share with you regarding your post, but I must run this morning….. I will be back later today to address it.

Thanks!
Mandy

[theodorej]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 06 2008,04:35)

Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 06 2008,00:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 05 2008,18:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,17:40) Hi not3, His birth? He was born of woman. Jb25 4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? 5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. 6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? Sure, birth is birth for most of us – no big deal. But what was growing inside of Mary was the only child of God Almighty.  No other child grew from conception that was of God.  No other.   When Jesus was born, it WAS a big deal. Greetings Mandi…..Jesus'birth was a big deal,in as much as it marked the beginning of his ministry and the fullfillment of prophesy….From a carnal point of view the scriptures never bothered to take note of the exact day he was born(eg.His Birthday)because in Gods eyes birthdays are not that important…. Yes, agreed. That AND our heavenly Father had just had a bouncy, baby boy made in his image. Instead of passing out cigars he had a host of angels come and sing!  I bet that was some show!     I doubt that would have happened just to mark a ministry beginning, but maybe?

Greetings Mandi…..Point well taken,however,the celebration of the birth of Jesus with respect to the singing angels were for the purpose of announcment….and after the celebration the date that all these things happened slipped into obsurity,never to be noted or celebrated….least of all at the time of the winter soltice…

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 08 2008,02:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2008,07:39) Hi not3, So the Word was not with God but in Him? How many different ways do you suppose we could interpret, “…with him….”?   Was he physically with him? Was he spiritually with him? Was he a part of him and so with him?

Hi not3,
If it meant anything other than the simple meaning of WITH scripture would say so.

[NickHassan]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 08 2008,02:22)

First, I would like to thank all those who welcomed me to Heaven net.  Second I have looked at the many comments on the debate of the preexistence of the only begotten Son of God. Everyone seems to have There own concepts and ideas concerning this event which took place before our universe was begun.  However, that debate was settled  By our Lord and Christ during a prayer to His father when he was here on earth completing what had been preordained by the Father before the creation of our  universe was even started  This is Christ speaking in a prayer to his Father John 17:4-5 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. And just to make sure we understand what he is saying he confirms that preexistence  in later verse in that same chapter of John John 17:24 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. NIV Since or Lord is referring to his glory in a time before creation was instigated by his Father and himself why should we doubt his credabiliy  by saying we know more than he does about something only He an d His father were present for. I am happy to be here in heaven Net because you all seem to be looking to underststand What our Creator has told us in His wondrous word

Welcome Roy,
Simplicity has fallen into disrepute sadly.

2Cor11
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[gollamudi]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 08 2008,02:22)

First, I would like to thank all those who welcomed me to Heaven net.  Second I have looked at the many comments on the debate of the preexistence of the only begotten Son of God. Everyone seems to have There own concepts and ideas concerning this event which took place before our universe was begun.  However, that debate was settled  By our Lord and Christ during a prayer to His father when he was here on earth completing what had been preordained by the Father before the creation of our  universe was even started  This is Christ speaking in a prayer to his Father John 17:4-5 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. And just to make sure we understand what he is saying he confirms that preexistence  in later verse in that same chapter of John John 17:24 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. NIV Since or Lord is referring to his glory in a time before creation was instigated by his Father and himself why should we doubt his credabiliy  by saying we know more than he does about something only He an d His father were present for. I am happy to be here in heaven Net because you all seem to be looking to underststand What our Creator has told us in His wondrous word

Hi brother Roy,
Thanks for that post but let me ask you one thing; the same verse I interpret differently stating Jesus was asking for the glory that was predestained for him by the Father before the foundations of the world because the glory can only be given when Jesus accomplishes the task that was set for him by the one and only God before the foundations of the world. How can you say that this should prove preexistence of Jesus physically rather than in the preordained plan of God like Peter was mentioning in 1 Pet 1:20 ?
“Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you”

Even you and me were predestained and loved by our Father God before the foundations of the world as per Eph 1:4-5
4 “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will”

What do you say on these scriptures? I ask you one more thing why not Jesus asked for the glory before his human birth instead of some thing which was before the foundations of the world but not talking about some thing in-between?

There lies the logic that there is no physical preexistence of Jesus prior to his human birth but certainly in the plan of God when he should take birth on this earth and fulfill his Father's will and be glorified by Him with the glory which was predestained for me before the foundations of the world.

This is the way I see the scriptures.
Please think over my brother.
Adam

[RoyT01]

Good day Adam

Your post to me says…

Thanks for that post but let me ask you one thing; the same verse I interpret differently stating Jesus was asking for the glory that was predestained for him by the Father before the foundations of the world because the glory can only be given when Jesus accomplishes the task that was set for him by the one and only God before the foundations of the world. How can you say that this should prove preexistence of Jesus physically rather than in the preordained plan of God like Peter was mentioning in 1 Pet 1:20 ?

Whenever someone attempts to rewrite the scriptures by using their own interpretations they get into trouble. To begin with the Almighty God we serve does not need any help with interpretations from us concerning that great majestic work of His word, which He has already accomplished quite superbly. But let us see what you feel is wrong with what Christ said to his Father in relation to…
1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. NIV
What had Christ prayed for…?
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

It appears Peter is confirming Christ’s comment to his Father but why? Does Peter think Christ is unsure of the past? Not likely, so let’s see what Peter says next…
1 Peter 1:21
21 Through him (Christ) you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. NIV

It seems to me Peter is simply confirming that what Christ had asked his Father for had already been given To His son; by The Father. However, Peter is speaking of the time he was living in not of an age long gone by. But Peter goes on to speak of the predestined family of God if you choose to read further. But it is clear that attempting to negate Christ’s prayerful words to his Father, in John by something Peter said is out of context and fruitless particularly since it is in regards to another theme. Nonetheless, it is this predestined family that is causing the confusion here.
It is quite true that predestined family was ordained By the Almighty Therefore it is proper for the saints to speak of that family of God as predestined. But it is the family that was predestined not the individuals that make up that family, the only exception to this is the only begotten Son of God, our promised Christ which is clearly confirmed in the second Chapter of 1Peter
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
NIV

1 Peter 2:9-17

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

11 Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.
12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.
15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
NIV

However, In Christ’s words to his Father he never mentions or even hints at any part of what he is saying as being part of something predestined. That has been added by you and your interpretation. I can go into this further if you wish for the glory Christ was speaking of to his Father is something past tense and comes in verse Three (3) of Genesis 1

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