Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
The chosen Christ.

Luke 23:35
And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

But a king in waiting till the Jordan.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 05 2008,14:22)

Hi Kathi, Thank you so much for this post and all the information.  I have a couple questions, and forgive me because my thoughts are stirred and I'm trying to make sense out of this, thus my questions may not be very clear.  Give me a second chance to clarify if need be. In 1 Peter 1:2 it says, “…..of God the Father….”.  Clearly denoting that “God” refers to the Father. In 2 Peter 1:1 it says, “…..of our God and Savior Jesus Christ….”.  Hmm?   My question is how does the Greek play out here for these two comparisons?  Is “God” translated in both instances the same or different?  Because what I'm wondering is if there is a “God Almighty” who is the Father (and has a Greek word attached to that), AND perhaps another Greek word attached to “God the Son” who is Jesus.  The reason I ask is because we are told that there is no other God but One, and that One God is the FATHER.  So, I'm wondering if there is no God beside the Father….how can Jesus (even as God the Son) be referred to as a “God” in sense of the word?  I sure hope that made sense? I can clearly see that what I have been putting off (learning Greek and how to manuever around Strongs) cannot be put off much longer. I want the truth more than I want to be right.  Thanks for taking the time to bring this, I really appreciate it. Love, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
You are very welcome and I am glad that you are thinking this through.

1 Peter 1:2
qeou patrov
is translated as “of God the Father”

2 Peter 1:1
tou qeou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou
is translated “of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”

As you can see Mandy, “patrov” is where we get “Father”.

The greek word for God is “qeou” and in each verse.

Quote

The reason I ask is because we are told that there is no other God but One, and that One God is the FATHER. So, I'm wondering if there is no God beside the Father….how can Jesus (even as God the Son) be referred to as a “God” in sense of the word?

Mandy, we are also told that the LORD our God is “one LORD” yet we are also told that Jesus is our “one Lord”. This is the same situation as being told there is “One God” but then we read that Jesus is our God and savior. It makes you think doesn't it.

Are they part of a complicated puzzle like the trinity where they are each God yet they are one God together with the Holy Spirit. All co-eternal and co-equal.

I think they are Father and Son. Each God, one always existing and His offspring, the only begotten God, the Son of God. Not both eternal or equal. The Father-eternal, the Son born and with a beginning, not created but born. The Father is the “Most High God”, His Son is not the “Most High God”. I think you know that I believe this already though.

Quote

I want the truth more than I want to be right. Thanks for taking the time to bring this, I really appreciate it.

Amen, our surrender leads to truth. God wants our hearts. If I haven't answered your questions or if you have more, please ask…no bother at all.

Blessings to you and I hope you still get to go on vacation.
Kathi

[Irene]

Mandy! Have a happy Vacation, with raising children we all need to change the scenery. Have a good time. Wish I could go with you.
Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,20:28)

Hi LU, The chosen Christ. Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. But a king in waiting till the Jordan.

Hi Nick,

Yes, Christ is the “servant” that is God's “chosen one”. Thank you for making that clear.

Book of Isaiah
42:1 “Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

18 “BEHOLD , MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM,
AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES

Lu 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

I am glad that we are also chosen in Christ.

BTW, when you quote the words of those “sneering” at Jesus, I am not quick to think that those words are something that can stand alone as truth. Ya know what I mean?

LU

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 06 2008,11:45)

Hi not3, not only ready but equipped and enabled. His period of training led to this moment but he still needed the supply of the grace.

Ah, yes – thank you.

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,06:19)

But Jews misunderstood like you that Jesus was claiming himself to be another God.

Adam,
Sorry you are so put out.

The Jews misunderstood that Jesus was claiming to be equal to God. I believe that He was claiming to be the Son of God who is our begotten God, not equal to the true God, His Father. The Jews and you both agree that He is not the begotten God but just a man like them. You have something in common here with those who threw stones at Christ for claiming to have existed before Abraham was born and then later crucified Him.

I agree with Jesus and disagree with you and the Jews that didn't get it.
Sorry we don't agree,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Kathi,

Hmmmm, still thinking on this. Thanks for your input so far, I'm sure I'll have more questions later.

I don't totally discount Jesus being God/god because he is from God, in that he is God's Son. As you and other's know I contend for Jesus being the literal Son of God. So, for him to be considered God/god is not a stretch for me. I guess that is where the phrase “Jesus the God-man” came from? More praying and contemplating is needed here……

Thanks again,
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,05:49)

Hi Sis Kathi, I never reduced our Lord Jesus' position as the bible declares he is the appointed Messiah and Lord of all even angels will bow down to him but all these tittles will not give him any God's position unless he is representing or revealing the same one God in bodily. You are misunderstanding scriptures by quoting Jesus as begotten God instead of begotten son. He is the son of God not any begotten God. How many Gods you want to make by this? So are they two Gods in the beginning ? You make God of the bible poly ? Where does the bible say he has begotten a God? Your judging me makes little difference to me. Please take care Adam

Hi Adam,
I have just shown you in 2 Peter 1:1 that Jesus Christ is called our God and Savior.  I am not the only one making Jesus our God.

Peter and Paul were too.  Do you need another greek lesson?

An apple and an orange sir, not two apples, pardon the analogy.

It is here that you can see that He is the only begotten God.
John 1:18

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB
LU

[Not3in1]

God begats god….
Human begats human….

God + Mary = God/human (combined, imo).

So in this way, I have no problem believing that Jesus is the begotten God (or rather the begotten “god” – shouldn't a capital be reserved for the One Almighty God?). My belief system allows for this, no problem; Jesus is the Son of God AND the son of man.

And = in addition to
Addition = the process of uniting two
Uniting = to join, combine, or incorporate so as to form a single whole or unit.
Join = connect, or union with
Union = combination of two things
Combination = something formed by combining *Syn: mixture*
Combining = to enter into chemical union.

Mixture = the act of mixing or the state of being mixed.
Fused = to become united or blended

Just some fun with little words with big meanings!
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2008,13:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,20:28) Hi LU, The chosen Christ. Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. But a king in waiting till the Jordan. Hi Nick, Yes, Christ is the “servant” that is God's “chosen one”.  Thank you for making that clear. Book of Isaiah 42:1 “Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. 18 “BEHOLD , MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES Lu 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” I am glad that we are also chosen in Christ. BTW, when you quote the words of those “sneering” at Jesus, I am not quick to think that those words are something that can stand alone as truth.  Ya know what I mean?   LU

Hi LU,
The enemies of Christ still were aware of what was written about him, which tales away ignorance as an excuse.

[gollamudi]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,20:02)

Hi Sis Mandy, Thanks for your response. Believe me there is no external source from where I am getting these interpretations, in fact I am trying to understand Jesus from a different angle. As I have already mentioned they are only my opinions for the present certainly I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt. Your way of telling God involved with Mary in conception of Jesus by giving His sperm or DNA is some thing I am not able to digest. How can an immortal Spirit being God can possess a mortal sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Mary? I am only trying to understand Jesus as God declared him as His beloved son at Jordan on his anointing by the Holy Spirit. God can have relationship with his children by His own nature that is Spirit not flesh and blood or DNA. You have also not agreed with me that Jesus became a part of this present creation through his birth on this earth but has become first born in rank by his preeminence by God the creator. If you believe Jesus is the first born only of the new creation then how can he become God's literal son when he was born of Mary? You seem to say his natural birth is of no significance here. How do you understand Israel being the first born of God as mentioned in Ex 4:22 if you say Jesus is only first born of God ? “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn”. I believe Jesus is the first born in this whole creation both the present and New by the rank but not in the order of birth. Love to you Adam

How about this post to you Mandy?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2008,13:45)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,06:19) But Jews misunderstood like you that Jesus was claiming himself to be another God. Adam, Sorry you are so put out. The Jews misunderstood that Jesus was claiming to be equal to God.  I believe that He was claiming to be the Son of God who is our begotten God, not equal to the true God, His Father.  The Jews and you both agree that He is not the begotten God but just a man like them.  You have something in common here with those who threw stones at Christ for claiming to have existed before Abraham was born and then later crucified Him.   I agree with Jesus and disagree with you and the Jews that didn't get it. Sorry we don't agree, Kathi

Hi Sis Kathi,
Thanks for that understanding. I know I am not downgrading my Lord and savior Jesus the Christ even if you are labelling me in that way. But I trying to say that the God of the Bible is Mono and One, He never changes nor He gives birth to any other God besides Him. As my Lord Jesus rightly told “He alone is the only True God” and there can never be one besides Him. If you want to make Jesus a begotten God you are making him a false God as per Jn 17:3

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”.

So be careful about your beliefs.

Hi Mandy,
Even I warn you not to go into that trap called Arianism of making Jesus a god or was preexisting prior to his birth as some spirit being.

Peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Hi Adam,

Sorry I missed that one post you made to me.  Let's see if I can make some comments on it here.

Quote

Your way of telling God involved with Mary in conception of Jesus by giving His sperm or DNA is some thing I am not able to digest.

Surely you are able to grasp how your children were conceived and born?  Jesus was no different in that way, imo.

Quote

God can have relationship with his children by His own nature that is Spirit not flesh and blood or DNA.

This is true and I agree.  The Spirit given to Jesus binds us all together in brotherly love and unity.  We have received the same spirit from the same Father.  However, God also conceived a Son.  In order to do that, we understand that some things had to be present like DNA or the equivalent.

Quote

I believe Jesus is the first born in this whole creation both the present and New by the rank but not in the order of birth.

Yes, I would agree that Jesus was first to establish the *new race* in this creation.

Thanks for your input, Adam.  I appreciate you brother and know that you are a fellow seeker of the truth.
Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 06 2008,13:17)

Mandy!  Have a happy Vacation, with raising children we all need to change the scenery. Have a good time. Wish I could go with you. Love Irene

Thanks, Irene.

I'm remaining patient through the rescheduling of things but it sure is frustrating. One thing that having children has taught me though is to remain flexible. Anything can change at any given time. In other words, I always buy the insurance when we buy plane tickets……you never know when a kids will spike a fever and start puking (it's happened to us before).

Love,
Mandy

[Irene]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 06 2008,18:04)

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 06 2008,13:17) Mandy!  Have a happy Vacation, with raising children we all need to change the scenery. Have a good time. Wish I could go with you. Love Irene   Thanks, Irene. I'm remaining patient through the rescheduling of things but it sure is frustrating.  One thing that having children has taught me though is to remain flexible.  Anything can change at any given time.  In other words, I always buy the insurance when we buy plane tickets……you never know when a kids will spike a fever and start puking (it's happened to us before).   Love, Mandy

Mandy! Thats the way it goes with Children. Hope all will go O.K. this time and you will have a good time. Enjoy, time goes to fast, before you know it, one is 70 years young. Now all we have is our Pictures and memories., until the world tomorrow.
Love Irene

[pulivarthy]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 06 2008,15:42)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,20:02) Hi Sis Mandy, Thanks for your response. Believe me there is no external source from where I am getting these interpretations, in fact I am trying to understand Jesus from a different angle. As I have already mentioned they are only my opinions for the present certainly I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt. Your way of telling God involved with Mary in conception of Jesus by giving His sperm or DNA is some thing I am not able to digest. How can an immortal Spirit being God can possess a mortal sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Mary? I am only trying to understand Jesus as God declared him as His beloved son at Jordan on his anointing by the Holy Spirit. God can have relationship with his children by His own nature that is Spirit not flesh and blood or DNA. You have also not agreed with me that Jesus became a part of this present creation through his birth on this earth but has become first born in rank by his preeminence by God the creator. If you believe Jesus is the first born only of the new creation then how can he become God's literal son when he was born of Mary? You seem to say his natural birth is of no significance here. How do you understand Israel being the first born of God as mentioned in Ex 4:22 if you say Jesus is only first born of God ? “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn”. I believe Jesus is the first born in this whole creation both the present and New by the rank but not in the order of birth. Love to you Adam How about this post to you Mandy?

according to john 1:1-14, God identified himself as Word(in the past eternity'I am'). Word became flesh ,means God,'Iam' bacame flesh.After that God himself was identified as'Jesus'.Though God was a spirit being, he himself identied as 'word ' and also as jesus christ that has life/light.therefore God can get his identification by his word only, whether it could be through prophets or angels and finally he,word himself.So, jesus was preexisting in the God( a personality for his thoughts) and god revealed it throgh jesus christ.
pulivarthy sarath babu

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,22:32)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2008,13:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,20:28) Hi LU, The chosen Christ. Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. But a king in waiting till the Jordan. Hi Nick, Yes, Christ is the “servant” that is God's “chosen one”.  Thank you for making that clear. Book of Isaiah 42:1 “Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. 18 “BEHOLD , MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES Lu 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” I am glad that we are also chosen in Christ. BTW, when you quote the words of those “sneering” at Jesus, I am not quick to think that those words are something that can stand alone as truth.  Ya know what I mean?   LU Hi LU, The enemies of Christ still were aware of what was written about him, which tales away ignorance as an excuse.

Hi Nick,
Knowing what was written and understanding what was written are two different things, IMO. They also thought
He was possessed by Beelzebul among other very erroneous thoughts. My point is that we always need to let other scriptures verify their words and not take their words as truth without testing them.

Mr 3:22
The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.”

LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (pulivarthy @ Aug. 06 2008,03:49)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 06 2008,15:42) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,20:02) Hi Sis Mandy, Thanks for your response. Believe me there is no external source from where I am getting these interpretations, in fact I am trying to understand Jesus from a different angle. As I have already mentioned they are only my opinions for the present certainly I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt. Your way of telling God involved with Mary in conception of Jesus by giving His sperm or DNA is some thing I am not able to digest. How can an immortal Spirit being God can possess a mortal sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Mary? I am only trying to understand Jesus as God declared him as His beloved son at Jordan on his anointing by the Holy Spirit. God can have relationship with his children by His own nature that is Spirit not flesh and blood or DNA. You have also not agreed with me that Jesus became a part of this present creation through his birth on this earth but has become first born in rank by his preeminence by God the creator. If you believe Jesus is the first born only of the new creation then how can he become God's literal son when he was born of Mary? You seem to say his natural birth is of no significance here. How do you understand Israel being the first born of God as mentioned in Ex 4:22 if you say Jesus is only first born of God ? “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn”. I believe Jesus is the first born in this whole creation both the present and New by the rank but not in the order of birth. Love to you Adam How about this post to you Mandy? according to john 1:1-14, God identified himself as Word(in the past eternity'I am'). Word became flesh ,means God,'Iam' bacame flesh.After that God himself was identified as'Jesus'.Though God was a spirit  being, he himself identied as 'word ' and also as jesus christ that has life/light.therefore God can get his identification by his word only, whether it could be through prophets or angels and finally he,word himself.So, jesus was preexisting in the God( a personality for his thoughts) and god revealed it throgh jesus christ. pulivarthy sarath babu

Welcome Pulivarthy,
I hope we treat you well here at heaven.net.

I have a different idea of John 1:1

In the beginning was the word
(“Let there be light” was the first word from God in the beginning)

And the word was with God,
(And the light was with God)

And the word was God.
(And the light was God, the begotten God)…..

And the word became flesh and dwelt among us.
(And the light became flesh and dwelt among us.)…

Jesus is the true light and the begotten God.

Jesus was the “light of the world” from the beginning but not recognized or fully revealed till the right time. The light was revealed in Christ.

That is my understanding.

God bless you Pulivarthy Sarath Babu

LU/Kathi/Lightenup

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2008,02:09)

Amen t8. It seems that God just gives us “clues” to the treasure in this case.  If we refuse to follow the clues because they are not written as in a clear enough way for us, we will not find the treasure.  Insisting on only relying on clear scripture takes faith of the unseen and the guidance of the Holy Spirit out of the picture, IMO   LU

Yes good point.

There are certain things that we can learn and even some things that we are expected to learn that are not spelled out for us.

e.g., Jesus said that the Pharisees had kept the law, but not the spirit of the law.

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

[RoyT01]

The two camps on preexistace that is mentioned by Mandy certainlly exist in this discussion but do they exist in reality; in the real world already created by our almighty God threw His only begotten Son?  Let us examine the scriptures that speak of this preexistence of the creators only begotten Son.

Col 1:15-20

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(What creation is this speaking of? clearly it is referring to the same creation spoken of in Genesis 1:1. How can we know this? Because this is confirmed by the next verse in Col 1:16 which is clearly speaking in the past tense
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. NIV

(notice All things WERE created; in other words they are already here.   Including powers rulers or authorities which causes me to wonder what or who they would be in the supposed new creation you folks speak of. It also makes me wonder why you think The Almighty creator made a some sort of mistake with the first creation that would  nesesitate His rebuilding a new creation?)
The creation of the universe we live in today was instigated by our wondrous God for the purpose of creating a spiritual family of brothers and sisters that would be adopted from the family of mankind that was ordained to be self perpetuating. Since this is already an occomplished fact why, I ponder, would God want to do it all over again?
Roy T01

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