Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:41)

Hi not3, Jn3 ” 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Hi Nick,

It is true that we are born-again of the spirit as Jesus said we should be. However, when we were conceived in our Mothers……we were not only given flesh, but personalities, spirits/souls – the whole deal.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:39)

It is hard to know and love what does not exist.

I don't agree.

Before my children were born – I loved them. I loved the idea/hope/plan of them. I anticipated their births (and later their adoptions). Funny, I just realized that our heavenly Father sees it the same way…….he anticipated our births (because he foreknew us the same way he did his own begotten Son), and he is also looking forward to OUR adoptions.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,15:55)

amen W, But the Spirit referred to as the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, given to him at the Jordan. His own spirit left him at calvary.

What? Nick, I've never heard you say this before. What do you mean, exactly.

Jesus ceased to be his own person (his spirit left him) and when he died God incarnated him (God's holy spirit took over)?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,16:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:39) It is hard to know and love what does not exist. I don't agree. Before my children were born – I loved them.  I loved the idea/hope/plan of them.  I anticipated their births (and later their adoptions).  Funny, I just realized that our heavenly Father sees it the same way…….he anticipated our births (because he foreknew us the same way he did his own begotten Son), and he is also looking forward to OUR adoptions.

Hi not3,
In is possible to hope for a family
and to love kids in general
But not in particular
till they arrive

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,16:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,15:55) amen W, But the Spirit referred to as the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, given to him at the Jordan. His own spirit left him at calvary. What?  Nick, I've never heard you say this before.  What do you mean, exactly. Jesus ceased to be his own person (his spirit left him) and when he died God incarnated him (God's holy spirit took over)?

Hi not3,
Yes.
He really really died.
He paid the full price for our souls of his own life.

Mt 27
” 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.”
Jn 19
” 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. “

[Proclaimer]

To humble one self is to start off in a higher place and to go down.
How could Jesus humble himself and become a man if he started life as a man?

I am sure that Unitarians have an answer for this, but I also am not satisfied with their answers to all the scriptures that teach pre-existence. Their answers seem more like excuses to me, just the same as the Trinitarian answers that are used to support their theology.

It seems to me that on one side you have Trinitarians and on the other you have Unitarians who say Jesus is a man and didn't preexist and nor does he share his Father's nature.

Both sides of the pendulum perhaps, but God's truth is not of the pendulum.

Who said there were 2 camps and one of them is the correct one?

Did not the Devil deceive the whole world. Is he not the one who sets 2 sides against each other. The only true division should be the Kingdom of God and the world.

I think it is best if we take scriptures for what they say and throw away all models and creeds. Let the scriptures speak and let us have the heart to listen.

Scripture says that the Father is the one true God and Jesus is his son. But there is also ample scriptures that show that Jesus came down from heaven and that he humbled himself and became a man and then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.

All I seem to hear are excuses as to why scripture doesn't mean what it says. I cannot accept these excuses. I am sorry but I trust scripture more and I dislike all the excuses I hear.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:54)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,16:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:39) It is hard to know and love what does not exist. I don't agree. Before my children were born – I loved them.  I loved the idea/hope/plan of them.  I anticipated their births (and later their adoptions).  Funny, I just realized that our heavenly Father sees it the same way…….he anticipated our births (because he foreknew us the same way he did his own begotten Son), and he is also looking forward to OUR adoptions. Hi not3, In is possible to hope for a family and to love kids in general But not in particular till they arrive

I was no one “in particular” when God foreknew me. I wasn't conceived yet. Did he love me?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:58)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,16:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,15:55) amen W, But the Spirit referred to as the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, given to him at the Jordan. His own spirit left him at calvary. What?  Nick, I've never heard you say this before.  What do you mean, exactly. Jesus ceased to be his own person (his spirit left him) and when he died God incarnated him (God's holy spirit took over)? Hi not3, Yes. He really really died. He paid the full price for our souls of his own life. Mt 27 ” 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.” Jn 19 ” 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. “

No, I understand that Jesus really died.

Are you saying that we will receive a *different* spirit than that that was ours when we were alive – when we die and are raised? Did Jesus?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,17:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:58) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,16:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,15:55) amen W, But the Spirit referred to as the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, given to him at the Jordan. His own spirit left him at calvary. What?  Nick, I've never heard you say this before.  What do you mean, exactly. Jesus ceased to be his own person (his spirit left him) and when he died God incarnated him (God's holy spirit took over)? Hi not3, Yes. He really really died. He paid the full price for our souls of his own life. Mt 27 ” 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.” Jn 19 ” 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. “ No, I understand that Jesus really died.   Are you saying that we will receive a *different* spirit than that that was ours when we were alive – when we die and are raised?  Did Jesus?

not3

Good point!

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ July 02 2007,17:04)

Scripture says that the Father is the one true God and Jesus is his son. But there is also ample scriptures that show that Jesus came down from heaven and that he humbled himself and became a man and then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.

t8,
One man's excuses are another man's truth. Go figure?

I also do not buy into the BU's pat-answers for everything. I like how they see some topics, but not all.

Regarding the “humbling” of Jesus. I do not agree that he had to start off high in order to come low. I believe that according to the Philippians passage – Jesus was not using the privileges that he could have as the only begotten of God. In this way, he humbled himself. It does not have to be about preexistence. I do believe there is a tendancy to read into scripture what we want to be there. I am guilty of this also. How we know we are doing that? There are other views that are different from our own view – and scripture lends itself to that view as well.

I don't know if you have been following the Conception thread or not, but Nick and I have chatted quite a bit about what it would mean for a preexistent spirit son to be truly conceived in Mary. The result, imho, is that this spirit son would have to be somehow altered when he was born. What are your thoughts?

[Laurel]

To Not 3,
Y'shua did not guise Himself. His Father made Him flesh through a woman. He has an actual geneology all the way from Adam. Like ourselves. He did not exist in a physical way before that. He existed as part of His Father, as we did before we were conceived.
Just as He was baptized and received the power of the Set-apart Spirit, we also are given this gift, but in a smaller sum, according to what we can handle and use with care. Y'shua received the fullness of the Spirit because he was without sin and was able to keep it without abusing it. As we grow in the Spirit more and more will be revealed to us. We share or invest what we were given and we get more. I think just as this earth will not be in our memory upon our rebirth into His kingdom, Y'shua's was not born with any knowledge of preexistance, but it was revealed to Him upon receiving the Spirit in it's completeness. He then knew from where He came and to where He was to return.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,17:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,16:58) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,16:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,15:55) amen W, But the Spirit referred to as the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, given to him at the Jordan. His own spirit left him at calvary. What?  Nick, I've never heard you say this before.  What do you mean, exactly. Jesus ceased to be his own person (his spirit left him) and when he died God incarnated him (God's holy spirit took over)? Hi not3, Yes. He really really died. He paid the full price for our souls of his own life. Mt 27 ” 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.” Jn 19 ” 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. “ No, I understand that Jesus really died.   Are you saying that we will receive a *different* spirit than that that was ours when we were alive – when we die and are raised?  Did Jesus?

Hi not3,
Paul said
“It is no longer I that liveth
but Christ that liveth in me”

[Not3in1]

Yes, but Paul was still alive when he said this. Right? We are talking about after you die……

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Scripture does say at death our spirit returns to God[ecc12]
Does it say anywhere it comes back again?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Laurel @ July 02 2007,17:21)

To Not 3, Y'shua did not guise Himself. His Father made Him flesh through a woman. He has an actual geneology all the way from Adam. Like ourselves. He did not exist in a physical way before that. He existed as part of His Father, as we did before we were conceived. Just as He was baptized and received the power of the Set-apart Spirit, we also are given this gift, but in a smaller sum, according to what we can handle and use with care. Y'shua received the fullness of the Spirit because he was without sin and was able to keep it without abusing it. As we grow in the Spirit more and more will be revealed to us. We share or invest what we were given and we get more. I think just as this earth will not be in our memory upon our rebirth into His kingdom, Y'shua's was not born with any knowledge of preexistance, but it was revealed to Him upon receiving the Spirit in it's completeness. He then knew from where He came and to where He was to return.

Hi Laurel,

Yes, you and I are in agreement. I was using the words “guise as a man” to show my dislike of certain beliefs (not that I believed Jesus was only in guise). Hope this makes sense.

If you pop over to the Conception thread, you will see I also believe much like yourself. We are in the minority – you must know this though!

Jesus received the Spirit without measure and had the fullness of that Spirit……we have fullness in Jesus.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,17:31)

Hi not3, Scripture does say at death our spirit returns to God[ecc12] Does it say anywhere it comes back again?

Nick, this is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.

When we die – we sleep. At resurrection, we wake up!

To me, this means that I am still myself, only resurrected.

After Jesus was resurrected he was still “himself.”

Right?

[Laurel]

It amazes me how many time language and our interpretations of it come between. This happens to me frequently. I am glad we are on the same page. I think Satan himself trys to separate us through misunderstandings. I will not allow that. So let's keep being patient and we will get it right eventually. PS I hope this isn't green:)

[Not3in1]

Nope, it's not green. Great color – thanks so much. Now you are easy to read!

Yes, it's soooooooo easy to misunderstand over emails and posting boards like this one. Especially when it moves very fast. This is only the second board that I've ever participated on for any length of time. I'm really enjoying it!

[GeneBalthrop]

worshiping jesus > Jesus was preconcieved by the Father that is true and so were we but being preconcieved in the Mind of God as his plan does not mean he preexisted in any form or essence.

Peter plainly said he was ordained before the world. another words he was pre planned , but went on to say “but was mamifested in our time.
the word manifest means in this instence (brought forth)

you are confusing the plan with the actual event the manifestion of Him. God Know along what he was going to do .

the Glory Jesus had with the father before the beginning of the world was the fact he was preordained to this Glory not that he already prexisted. but was destened for this Glory in Gods plan and the plan became a reality when the Man Jseus (a son of man) came into existence.

worshiping Jesus you are pushing your false trentarian idology. In order for you to push your false teachings you have to ignore so many plain sctiptures it shows your lack of knowledge as well as understanding of spritual truths. You triune God head is as false as any lie ever told.
but just like it say's , “because they recieve love of the truth God will send them a delusion in order for then to believe (THE LIE).

and as a provocator of the lie you will also recieve it's judgement at the return of Jesus Christ when he abolishes it with the word of his own mouth.

[Laurel]

I have been kicked out of a few for sharing with Jews the Messiah and with Christains the Feasts and Sabbath. I hope I found a home here, where I am not kicked out for teaching what has been revealed to me.

[Author]

Posts