Preexistence

Participant

Hi LU,
Christ means anointed one.

Luke 4:18
” THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Acts 4:27
“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Acts 10:38
“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Hebrews 1:9
” YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOUWITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

We know when this happened.

August 5, 2008 at 8:02 am#100158

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 05 2008,18:17)

Hi Adam,

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This adoption of children is present but we are going to become real born children on our rebirth in spirit (literally) in our resurrection into God's new creation then God will not show any difference between us and Jesus

But Jesus will still be at the Father's right hand, and we will not. What do you suppose the difference is? Is it only that he didn't love his life unto death and was exhaulted to that position? Because other's were killed for the gospel and yet there is only One begotten of the Father, only One Son who is at his right hand. Jesus will also receive honor and glory (as the only begotten Son). To my knowledge, we will be the ones giving the honor, not receiving it. Again, what is the difference if we are all sons in the same way?

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Yes, presently we are adopted and called as children of God,

This isn't quite true. Paul tells us that we hope for what we do not have…..and that we are waiting for our adoption as sons. It is our hope, brother. Imagine! What a glorious hope we have!

Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 8:25
But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

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at our resurrection we will be born as sons and daughters of God literally by the spirit like Jesus into God's family.

Scripture says something a little different in that we will receive our adoption as sons. While adoption is just as legitimate as born children (I am an adoptive mother, myself), and adoptive children would receive the same rights as born children – they are still adopted. There is a difference here. If there wasn't a difference, Paul wouldn't have taught on the matter. Once again, I believe there is some insight here to those who will see it.

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Jesus is the first in rank or first born in all God's creation including this present one.

I believe that Jesus is the firstborn (during this creation, for lack of a better way to say it) OF the new creation.

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Jesus became literal God's son when he was born of Spirit of God by resurrection.

I believe Jesus was God's Son at birth.

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4 but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”

“…but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit…..” This doesn't mean he wasn't the Son of God at his birth, it simply means that Jesus received the power he lacked when he walked the earth. Now he has the power – oh yeah baby – he's got the power!

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God's relationship matters not in material substance like any DNA or sperm but matters in nature of Spirit.

Adam, I can certainly see where you get your belief from, but this always makes me sad to hear from folks. Denying that the Father is truly the literal Father of his own son is sad to me.

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Jesus became literal Spirit son on his resurrection and we all will become self same way like Jesus IMO.

Yes, I'm sure that once we have experienced the natural we will get to experience the spiritual – but again it won't be in the same exact way as Jesus……we'll be adopted.

Some folks say, “Well even adopted children are still human children – the nature doesn't change.” and they would be correct. But in the case of Jesus it's a bit different. He is both Son of God AND Son of Man. He is the bridge. Flesh and blood cannot inherit (we are flesh and blood). Jesus was God's boy (divine) and Mary's son (flesh and blood). He is exactly what we will become…… The difference is that he was born that way and we will be changed, and then adopted. Ultimately we will be reconciled to God because of Jesus' humanity. We become acceptable.

I'm rambling a bit tonight, sorry. I'm disappointed that our vacations plans have to be put off a bit. I was packed and ready to go, now the brakes are on. Oh well, there must be a reason.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Sis Mandy,
Thanks for your response. Believe me there is no external source from where I am getting these interpretations, in fact I am trying to understand Jesus from a different angle. As I have already mentioned they are only my opinions for the present certainly I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt.

Your way of telling God involved with Mary in conception of Jesus by giving His sperm or DNA is some thing I am not able to digest.

How can an immortal Spirit being God can possess a mortal sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Mary?

I am only trying to understand Jesus as God declared him as His beloved son at Jordan on his anointing by the Holy Spirit.
God can have relationship with his children by His own nature that is Spirit not flesh and blood or DNA.

You have also not agreed with me that Jesus became a part of this present creation through his birth on this earth but has become first born in rank by his preeminence by God the creator.

If you believe Jesus is the first born only of the new creation then how can he become God's literal son when he was born of Mary? You seem to say his natural birth is of no
significance here. How do you understand Israel being the first born of God as mentioned in Ex 4:22 if you say Jesus is only first born of God ?

“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn”.

I believe Jesus is the first born in this whole creation both the present and New by the rank but not in the order of birth.

Love to you
Adam

August 5, 2008 at 8:04 am#100159

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,19:48)

Hi LU,
Christ means anointed one.

Acts 4:27
“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Hebrews 1:9
” YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOUWITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

We know when this happened.

Amen to that post brother Nick. I agree with you.

August 5, 2008 at 9:01 am#100164

Participant

Dear Mandy, Nick and Adam,
Mandy,yes we do have things in common and I have been appreciating your last few posts.
I would like to show you, Nick and Adam something. I know, I know another Greek lesson but it is important. Look at these two lines of Greek and notice that they are exactly the same except for the second word in each line and that is consistent in each Greek manuscript.

tou qeou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou;
tou kuriou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou.

That was from the Nestlé-Aland 26 manuscript.

tou yeou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou
tou kuriou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou

The above is from the 1894 Textus Receptus manuscript. Notice again that the words are all the same in each line except the second word.

tou yeou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou
tou kuriou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou

The above two Greek lines are from the 1991 Byzantine manuscript. Also notice they are the same except for the second word.

yeou and qeou are both transliterated as theos, strong's number 2316.

kurio is transliterated as kurios, strong's number 2962.

Hence, In my understanding, they should be translated the same except for the second word. Let's see how they are translated in several Bible versions:

2 Peter 1:1
NET © …our God and Savior, Jesus Christ…

NIV ©…our God and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NASB ©…our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:…

NLT ©…Jesus Christ, our God and Savior…

MSG ©…our God and Savior, Jesus Christ…

BBE ©…our God and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NRSV ©…our God and Savior Jesus Christ…

NKJV ©… our God and Savior Jesus Christ…

KJV ©…God and our Saviour Jesus Christ…

2 Peter 1:11
NET ©…our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ…

NIV ©…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NASB ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

NLT ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

MSG ©…our Master and Savior, Jesus Christ….

BBE ©…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NRSV ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

NKJV ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ….

KJV©…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…

Now let's be objective about this, ok. Do you see how the KJV was not consistent? The “our” is placed in different places in that translation. Do you see how that is not the case in the NKJV? I believe it is the KJV that is in error here. Also, search your heart here, when you read “our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”, do you think of the words “Lord” and “Savior” to refer both to Jesus. I do and I would bet that you have used the phrase “Lord and Savior” to refer to Jesus in your past posts, so be truthful to yourselves here.

Therefore, in conclusion “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” would also refer to the same one person and that is Jesus Christ.

I imagine that one can weasel their way out of that by claiming theos to mean “our mighty one” and not really “our God” but I don't think that anyone can remain convinced that the two words don't refer to the same being. Maybe it would be a good time to ask the Holy Spirit to show the truth here. I believe that Jesus is our God and Savior, the begotten God and Savior. That is very different than calling Him the always existent God and Savior.

God bless,
Kathi

August 5, 2008 at 9:11 am#100165

Participant

Hi Sis Kathi,
Let the greek speak to itself but our God can never become Jesus the glorified man who has been made as savior and Lord of this world by that one and only God. You can not just confuse us by saying 'our Lord' is equal to 'our God'. I think you could not get any thing from my post which clarified the difference between “the Lord” and “the LORD”. Jesus is our Lord(Adoni), the Master and Savior. But Father is the LORD(Adonai) and our God. Please see the basic difference you can not make Jesus another God or begotten God. That is another blunder we will be in if you keep sticking to that beleif IMO.

Blessings
Adam

August 5, 2008 at 9:16 am#100168

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,03:48)

Hi LU,
Christ means anointed one.

Acts 4:27
“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Hebrews 1:9
” YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOUWITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

We know when this happened.

Hi Nick,
Simeon saw and held the “anointed one” in his arms when the “anointed one” was days old. Being the “anointed one” is different than being anointed. Believers are also anointed but that doesn't make us a Christ.

2Co 1:21
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God

August 5, 2008 at 9:22 am#100170

Participant

Hi LU,
The kingdom is of our God, and of our saviour Christ Jesus.

August 5, 2008 at 9:32 am#100172

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,05:11)

Blessings
Adam

Adam,
My point in the Greek lesson was not to compare Lord=God. It was to compare the construction of the two phrases in each Greek manuscript and how exactly similar they were except for one word and how the two nouns “Lord and Savior” and “God and Savior” both refer to Jesus. I'm sorry that you missed that point. You can not seem to see how I am saying that Jesus is NOT our “GOD” the always existing one, He is our “God” the begotten one. The always existing GOD did NOT become Jesus. The only begotten God did become Jesus. An apple and an orange, very different yet both fruit. You, dear one greatly reduce Jesus and underestimate the ability of His Father to bear a Son who is like Himself and someday you will be accountable for this.

This I won't do so stop trying, your effort is useless on me.
I think that you mean well but please stop.

IMO,
Kathi

August 5, 2008 at 9:39 am#100174

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,05:22)

Hi LU,
The kingdom is of our God, and of our saviour Christ Jesus.

Hi Nick,
I agree that somewhere in scriptures it is written to mean two different ones but in my post regarding this particular verse it refers to one person.

2 Peter 1:11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.

2 Peter 1:1 From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.

August 5, 2008 at 9:41 am#100175

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2008,21:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,03:48)

Hi LU,
Christ means anointed one.

Acts 4:27
“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Hebrews 1:9
” YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOUWITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

We know when this happened.

2Co 1:21
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God

Hi LU,
Look at the expectations of the Jews.
John 4:25
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming ( He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”

John 7:31
But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, ” When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has, will He?”

John 7:42
“Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?”

They identify the person by his human origin and his works but those works were never done till after his anointing in the Jordan.

August 5, 2008 at 9:49 am#100177

Participant

Hi Sis Kathi,
I never reduced our Lord Jesus' position as the bible declares he is the appointed Messiah and Lord of all even angels will bow down to him but all these tittles will not give him any God's position unless he is representing or revealing the same one God in bodily. You are misunderstanding scriptures by quoting Jesus as begotten God instead of begotten son. He is the son of God not any begotten God. How many Gods you want to make by this?
So are they two Gods in the beginning ? You make God of the bible poly ?
Where does the bible say he has begotten a God?

Your judging me makes little difference to me.
Please take care
Adam

August 5, 2008 at 9:57 am#100179

Participant

Amen to those posts brother Nick. Jews were never expecting for a begotten God but a human Messiah.

August 5, 2008 at 10:11 am#100181

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,05:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2008,21:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,03:48)

Hi LU,
Christ means anointed one.

Acts 4:27
“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Hebrews 1:9
” YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOUWITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

We know when this happened.

2Co 1:21
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God

Hi LU,
Look at the expectations of the Jews.
John 4:25
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming ( He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”

John 7:31
But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, ” When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has, will He?”

John 7:42
“Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?”

They identify the person by his human origin and his works but those works were never done till after his anointing in the Jordan.

The Jews killed him, I guess they didn't have it figured out did they Nick.

August 5, 2008 at 10:13 am#100182

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2008,05:57)

Amen to those posts brother Nick. Jews were never expecting for a begotten God but a human Messiah.

So, the Jews were right??? His own received Him NOT!

August 5, 2008 at 10:19 am#100184

Participant

But Jews misunderstood like you that Jesus was claiming himself to be another God.

August 5, 2008 at 10:20 am#100185

Participant

Hi LU,
The religious authorities did not accept him.
Some Jews did and they were given the right to become children of God.

ohn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

August 5, 2008 at 11:41 am#100209

pulivarthy

Participant

john:1:1-2;1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
it connotes that word was held by the God before creation started.word has an invisible personality like God and in him.word can do all what God wants to be done.word only created angels also.word is similar to a skillful worker of God.like God's spirit, God's word has an invisible personality.it only understands what God intends to do through it perfectly.That word was given flesh form as a skillful physician,perfect worker,perfect master/steward of god”s houser.

August 5, 2008 at 11:44 am#100210