Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Nick, what do you think of the post I made to Adam?  
Any more thoughts, perhaps on the “firstborn” idea?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
If MONOGENES relates to Jesus the man, how come he such an ordinary man till he was anointed?

Is 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,11:41)

Hi not3, If MONOGENES relates to Jesus the man, how come he such an ordinary man till he was anointed? Is 53 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Oh, this doesn't mean that he was ordinary just because he didn't have anything to draw men to himself (yet).

Remember the Magi came to worship him when he was born?
Remember the hosts of angels announced his birth?
Remember that he was born King of Kings…..

Not ordinary at all.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
The attention paid to him did not make him any different to us did it?
Are you saying it was the anointing that made him so special and unique?

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 04 2008,04:42)

Baby Jesus was not any begotten God. He was a man like you and me But received anointing as Messiah or Christ at Jordan by the Holy Spirit. He became Lord of living and dead on his resurrection IMO. Thanks and blessings Adam

Hi Adam, Nick too,

The Christ is a baby in this passage. Simeon saw the Lord's Christ when Jesus was only days old. No way did he have to become the Christ by some anointing at Jordan as you and Nick say. The anointing of the Holy Spirit at Jordan empowered who He already was to further the will of God in His life.

Luke 2:25-40
25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, 31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples, 32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel.” 33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him.

His father and mother were amazed at what an unusual child they had. They knew He was no ordinary man. Of course, they knew this when magi showed up with gifts being led by a star, or when shepherds showed up after seeing a host of angels singing in the sky. These were not people that knew Mary and Joseph and just wanted to share in their joy, no, those that came were strangers to Mary and Joseph. The magi and shepherds knew He was not an ordinary man and I wish that preaching of Him being ordinary would stop because it belittles the Son of God.
Blessings,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 04 2008,14:08)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 04 2008,20:54) There will be no difference between Jesus and other children of God in resurrection. We will be joint heirs in heavenly blessings with our elder brother Jesus. Brother Adam, You say, “There will be no difference between Jesus and other children of God in resurrection…..”.  What insight!  What simple truth!

Mandy and Adam,
Really, there will be no difference between Jesus and the other children of God? Are we all going to be “King of kings and Lord of lords” in His kingdom? I don't think so.

No clear or even somewhat clear teaching to say that. It amazes me that you both insist on clear scriptures and then come to the conclusion that there will be no difference between Jesus and the other children of God.

Re 17:14
“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Was Christ ever referred to as “called or chosen”. I don't recall anywhere. There is a difference between Him and all others in His kingdom, some similarities but huge differences also.

Peace,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
It was essential that Jesus be just like us so we can follow him.
It was also necessary that he be weak, even insignificant.
God's power shows up best in weak vessels.
He was the finest such vessel.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Indeed he was chosen
Jn12
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2008,12:27)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 04 2008,04:42) Baby Jesus was not any begotten God. He was a man like you and me But received anointing as Messiah or Christ at Jordan by the Holy Spirit. He became Lord of living and dead on his resurrection IMO. Thanks and blessings Adam Hi Adam, Nick too, The Christ is a baby in this passage.  Simeon saw the Lord's Christ when Jesus was only days old.  No way did he have to become the Christ by some anointing at Jordan as you and Nick say.  The anointing of the Holy Spirit at Jordan empowered who He already was to further the will of God in His life. Luke 2:25-40           25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, 31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples, 32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel.” 33 And His father and mother  were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. His father and mother were amazed at what an unusual child they had.  They knew He was no ordinary man.  Of course, they knew this when magi showed up with gifts being led by a star, or when shepherds showed up after seeing a host of angels singing in the sky.  These were not people that knew Mary and Joseph and just wanted to share in their joy, no, those that came were strangers to Mary and Joseph.  The magi and shepherds knew He was not an ordinary man and I wish that preaching of Him being ordinary would stop because it belittles the Son of God. Blessings, Kathi

Hi LU,
Indeed Simeon was prophetic and saw the Lord's Christ.
But he had yet to receive that anointing.

Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

He was a man
Are there different kinds of men?

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know–
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2008,12:43)

It amazes me that you both insist on clear scriptures and then come to the conclusion that there will be no difference between Jesus and the other children of God.

Kathi,

I believe you have taken this to a personal level, perhaps?  The reason I say that is because if you will read my post all the way through (the one to Adam) you will see that you have come to the wrong conclusion regarding my beliefs.  In fact, I am contending for a Son of God who is NOT the same as the other sons of God.  Read it again, please.  Also, my previous comments to Nick also show my line of reasoning concerning the sonship of Jesus and how it is DIFFERENT than ours – for many of the same reasons you believe it's different.

Maybe begin by thinking that we have something in common instead of being on the defensive?     Because we do have so much in common!!

Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Greater even than the other sons of God who cheered when the foundations of earth were laid?

Jb38

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 

Greater perhaps than the sons of God who presented themselves to God?

Jb1
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

[Not3in1]

Jesus is the ONLY ONE BORN OF GOD from a virgin.  
There will never be another.

We are servants (like Moses) over the house, but Jesus is a Son over the house.  Are we greater than Moses?  

We will all have seats at the dinner table, but Jesus is at God's right hand.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
The monogenes son was sent into the world.

1Jn4
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Seems he existed before being sent.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 05 2008,06:08)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 04 2008,20:54) There will be no difference between Jesus and other children of God in resurrection. We will be joint heirs in heavenly blessings with our elder brother Jesus. Brother Adam, You say, “There will be no difference between Jesus and other children of God in resurrection…..”.  What insight!  What simple truth!  This begs the question, “Why?” There has been a lot of talk lately about Jesus being the firstborn of all creation.  The camp is divided into two groups that I can see. 1.)  The preexistent camp believes that this “firstborn over creation” means that Jesus was begotten of God alone in the heavens.  Thus he was firstborn over the creation we are a part of now. 2.)  The non-preexistent camp believes that this “firstborn over all creation” is speaking to the coming creation where Jesus certainly IS the firstborn! There are many scriptures used to prove both sides.  I won't get into that here.  You can think of them right now in your head, I'm sure. My point is what would be the point to Jesus being the firstborn of THIS creation?  So he helped in creation – so what?  So everything came through him – so what does that do for us?  It doesn't really matter how it came to be, the fact is that we are here and we are enjoying it.  Right?  There are no special things that we gain by having Jesus created before us, and helping his Father out in the creating business. However, we do gain something if Jesus is the firstborn from the *new* creation and from the dead.   No question that Jesus was the first to be born of God and a virgin.  No question he was the first and last to have this status – the only begotten Son of God.  Even when we follow Christ in resurrection and receive our adoption as sons, we will still only be adopted sons.  To be sure, we will have “co-heir” status and full rights as son's and daughter's, but as adopted son's and daughter's.  There is a difference here for those who will recognize it. There can only EVER be ONE begotten Son of God.  But we will follow him.  Our natures will be changed to reflect his nature.  Our family status will change to reflect his status, though we be adopted God has seen fit to qualify us as children and we will receive our inheritence.  Praise God! Jesus as the firstborn of THIS creation affords us what? Jesus as the firstborn of the creation to come affords us our future sonship and eternal life. Of course this is all my opinion and how I see things.  I welcome input as I am still fine-tuning what it is that I believe.  God is so patient!  His patience means salvation.  Praise God! Love, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
I appreciate your post to me on “first born son of God”. Of course I agree that certainly Jesus is having all preeminence in all God's creation and he is the Lord of all and king of kings and the Anointed Messiah. But I was talking about the nature and characteristics of all God's children including Jesus. We will also be kings and priest unto our God and Father along with Jesus as per 1 Pet 2:9

“But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises” of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light”.

I meant we are equal to Jesus in nature not in power and position. This adoption of children is present but we are going to become real born children on our rebirth in spirit (literally) in our resurrection into God's new creation then God will not show any difference between us and Jesus (1 Jn 3:1-2)

1 “See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed  we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”.

Yes, presently we are adopted and called as children of God, but in future at our resurrection we will be born as sons and daughters of God literally by the spirit like Jesus into God's family. This will be called literal born again into God's kingdom literally IMO.

Your query regarding Jesus being the first born of all creation as mentioned in Col 1:12-17 talks about Jesus' preeminence in all God's creation including the present creation as well as new creation as you mentioned. He became first by preeminence but not by the order of birth. Please see this simple truth even a Trinitarian agrees with my understanding.
Kathi, Nick and T8 believe that Jesus was not created but was born of the Father before the foundations of the world. But they are forgetting that Col 1:12-17 talks about God's creation. How can Jesus be a part of creation unless he is created in some way? Here lies the logic in understanding of the above passage.

I believe that Jesus became part of this creation when he was born of Mary not by being born in some mystified way as they and many Arians/JW claim. But Jesus became the first born by his preeminence of God in rank not in the order of birth in this creation. Please remember Jacob became first born by election of God instead of Esau. In self same way Jesus is the first in rank or first born in all God's creation including this present one. Jesus became literal God's son when he was born of Spirit of God by resurrection.

Please see Rom 1:
3 “the gospel about his Son, descended from David according to the flesh,
4 but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”

Jesus was also called as Son of God right from his birth because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit of God in Mary. But he was son of man(literal) till his death on cross untill his resurrection from the dead. God's relationship matters not in material substance like any DNA or sperm but matters in nature of Spirit. Jesus became literal Spirit son on his resurrection and we all will become self same way like Jesus IMO.

I agree with our brother Nick that Jesus has not become Messiah untill he was anointed by the Spirit of Christ from God at Jordan but certainly he was called and prophesied as son of God and Messiah before that.

Please think over on these understandings.
Love to you
Adam

[Irene]

Adam Let me give you 2 Scriptures that tells you that Jesus was with the Father before the world was.
In Jesus own words He said:”
John 6:38 ” For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him that send me.”

John 6:62 ” What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before.”

Peace and Love Irene

Along with Rev.3:14 and Col. 1:15-18 and John 1:1, John 17: 8 there is no doubt in my mind that Jesus preexisted before He became a man.
My advice to you is to study this again and see if you will see it in a different light.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,12:13)

Hi not3, The attention paid to him did not make him any different to us did it? Are you saying it was the anointing that made him so special and unique?

“Lord at thy birth.” That is what made Jesus different to us. We were born children of our parents. Jesus was born as our Lord and Savior.

It wasn't his annointing that gave him this, it was his birth.

It was who and what he was.

*This was supposed to post hours ago but I called away from the computer. We've had to postpone our vacation (long, boring story).

Thanks,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
His birth?
He was born of woman.
Jb25
4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

[Not3in1]

Hi Adam,

Quote

This adoption of children is present but we are going to become real born children on our rebirth in spirit (literally) in our resurrection into God's new creation then God will not show any difference between us and Jesus

But Jesus will still be at the Father's right hand, and we will not. What do you suppose the difference is? Is it only that he didn't love his life unto death and was exhaulted to that position? Because other's were killed for the gospel and yet there is only One begotten of the Father, only One Son who is at his right hand. Jesus will also receive honor and glory (as the only begotten Son). To my knowledge, we will be the ones giving the honor, not receiving it. Again, what is the difference if we are all sons in the same way?

Quote

Yes, presently we are adopted and called as children of God,

This isn't quite true. Paul tells us that we hope for what we do not have…..and that we are waiting for our adoption as sons. It is our hope, brother. Imagine! What a glorious hope we have!

Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 8:25
But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Quote

at our resurrection we will be born as sons and daughters of God literally by the spirit like Jesus into God's family.

Scripture says something a little different in that we will receive our adoption as sons. While adoption is just as legitimate as born children (I am an adoptive mother, myself), and adoptive children would receive the same rights as born children – they are still adopted. There is a difference here. If there wasn't a difference, Paul wouldn't have taught on the matter. Once again, I believe there is some insight here to those who will see it.

Quote

Jesus is the first in rank or first born in all God's creation including this present one.

I believe that Jesus is the firstborn (during this creation, for lack of a better way to say it) OF the new creation.

Quote

Jesus became literal God's son when he was born of Spirit of God by resurrection.

I believe Jesus was God's Son at birth.

Quote

4 but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”

“…but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit…..” This doesn't mean he wasn't the Son of God at his birth, it simply means that Jesus received the power he lacked when he walked the earth. Now he has the power – oh yeah baby – he's got the power!

Quote

God's relationship matters not in material substance like any DNA or sperm but matters in nature of Spirit.

Adam, I can certainly see where you get your belief from, but this always makes me sad to hear from folks. Denying that the Father is truly the literal Father of his own son is sad to me.

Quote

Jesus became literal Spirit son on his resurrection and we all will become self same way like Jesus IMO.

Yes, I'm sure that once we have experienced the natural we will get to experience the spiritual – but again it won't be in the same exact way as Jesus……we'll be adopted.

Some folks say, “Well even adopted children are still human children – the nature doesn't change.” and they would be correct. But in the case of Jesus it's a bit different. He is both Son of God AND Son of Man. He is the bridge. Flesh and blood cannot inherit (we are flesh and blood). Jesus was God's boy (divine) and Mary's son (flesh and blood). He is exactly what we will become…… The difference is that he was born that way and we will be changed, and then adopted. Ultimately we will be reconciled to God because of Jesus' humanity. We become acceptable.

I'm rambling a bit tonight, sorry. I'm disappointed that our vacations plans have to be put off a bit. I was packed and ready to go, now the brakes are on. Oh well, there must be a reason.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,17:40)

Hi not3, His birth? He was born of woman. Jb25 4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? 5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. 6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Sure, birth is birth for most of us – no big deal.

But what was growing inside of Mary was the only child of God Almighty. No other child grew from conception that was of God. No other.

When Jesus was born, it WAS a big deal.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2008,21:46)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2008,12:27) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 04 2008,04:42) Baby Jesus was not any begotten God. He was a man like you and me But received anointing as Messiah or Christ at Jordan by the Holy Spirit. He became Lord of living and dead on his resurrection IMO. Thanks and blessings Adam Hi Adam, Nick too, The Christ is a baby in this passage.  Simeon saw the Lord's Christ when Jesus was only days old.  No way did he have to become the Christ by some anointing at Jordan as you and Nick say.  The anointing of the Holy Spirit at Jordan empowered who He already was to further the will of God in His life. Luke 2:25-40           25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, 31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples, 32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel.” 33 And His father and mother  were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. His father and mother were amazed at what an unusual child they had.  They knew He was no ordinary man.  Of course, they knew this when magi showed up with gifts being led by a star, or when shepherds showed up after seeing a host of angels singing in the sky.  These were not people that knew Mary and Joseph and just wanted to share in their joy, no, those that came were strangers to Mary and Joseph.  The magi and shepherds knew He was not an ordinary man and I wish that preaching of Him being ordinary would stop because it belittles the Son of God. Blessings, Kathi Hi LU, Indeed Simeon was prophetic and saw the Lord's Christ. But he had yet to receive that anointing. Acts 10 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:   He was a man Are there different kinds of men? Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know– 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hi Nick,
Jesus was Christ right then when Simeon was holding Him. Before Mary and Joseph brought Jesus into see Simeon, Simeon had already seen the future Christ in his heart. When He held Jesus, he saw the Christ in his arms, not the one who will become the Christ. No where does it say that what He was holding wasn't the Christ yet but someday will be. It doesn't speak of Jesus becoming Christ anywhere as far as I have seen. He was Christ before Jordan but without the power from the Holy Spirit. At Jordan He received that power not the title of “Christ”.

LU

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