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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene! 
not3Are you saying its impossible for God to take on the likeness of human flesh?
Hi All:
I'd like to analyze Hebrews 3 to see just what it does say and so I'll paste it below:
Hebrews 3
3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
3:2
Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3:3
For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
3:4
For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
3:5
And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Quote 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;This verse says that Jesus was an Apostle which means that he was sent by God, and he is the High Priest who has entered into the very presense of God for us.
Quote 3:3
For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.And this verse says “this man” was counted worthy of more glory than Moses. From the stand point of pre-existence, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary. There is no where else in the scripture where we that he existed as a man before this event. Also, in that he is a man, he can not be God in the sense that Trinitarians indicate.
[/QUOTE]3:2
Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.Quote This verse states that God appointed him to his position which we know is that of God's Christ and High Priest and Lord over all of God's creation. But it was God who appointed him to his position and therefore, he can not be God in the way that Trinitarians indicate.
3:4
For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.God was within him and he was acting in obedience to God as his Christ and he is God in that he is the express image of God's person. The following verses indicate that this is what is meant by “he that built all things is God”.
Quote 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Quote 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Verse 3:6 states that “Christ as a son” over his own house. He is the head of the body, which is the church, and we are members of his body, and he dwells in us by his Word.
Quote 1Co 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.God Bless
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,09:25) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene!
not3Are you saying its impossible for God to take on the likeness of human flesh?
Hi W,
We do not use logic to argue from what is possible.
God reveals all we need to know in the bible.
He does not need the help of men.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,09:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,09:25) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene!
not3Are you saying its impossible for God to take on the likeness of human flesh?
Hi W,
We do not use logic to argue from what is possible.
God reveals all we need to know in the bible.
He does not need the help of men.
NHThese are your words…
Quote Scripture does not say the Word WAS a man but WAS rather God with God. What do you think?
He certainly was not the God he was with.You said “the Word was God with God”.
And we know by Jn 1:14 and Phil 2 the Word was tabernacled among us!
I think my logic is “scripturally sound”, what about yours?
Hi W,
Of course the Word of God came among men
and was filled with the powers and wisdom of God and served God.
Surely you not not think any man could do these things in his own strength?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,10:23) Hi W,
Of course the Word of God came among men
and was filled with the powers and wisdom of God and served God.
Surely you not not think any man could do these things in his own strength?
NHA little slieght of hand there.
You say…
Quote
Of course the Word of God came among men…
Is there a scripture that says “the Word of God” came among men?This is the kinda of deception you are used to isnt it NH?
“The Word” who is God came among men, the Lord from heaven!
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jesus did pre-exist his birth.
John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by Him; and without him
was not anything made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the
darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name
was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness
of the Light, that all men through him might
believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear
witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every
man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made
by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own recieved
him not.
But as many as recieved him, to them gave he
power to become the sons of God, even to
them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will
of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt
among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory
as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of
grace and truth.Quote (942767 @ June 30 2007,09:48) Quote 3:3
For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.And this verse says “this man” was counted worthy of more glory than Moses. From the stand point of pre-existence, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary. There is no where else in the scripture where we that he existed as a man before this event. Also, in that he is a man, he can not be God in the sense that Trinitarians indicate.
Don't forget about this part of the verse SDN:“For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.“
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,14:11) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2007,09:48) Quote 3:3
For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.And this verse says “this man” was counted worthy of more glory than Moses. From the stand point of pre-existence, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary. There is no where else in the scripture where we that he existed as a man before this event. Also, in that he is a man, he can not be God in the sense that Trinitarians indicate.
Don't forget about this part of the verse SDN:“For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.“
Hi Brother Isaiah:I did't forget that verse. It still says that he as a man builded the house, and that is explained by the following verse:
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.God Bless
Hi Brother Isaiah:
Also, the following scripture may help:
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.I believe that this indicates that there is a difference between the creation of mankind and what is termed as the house being builded.
God Bless
Quite So 94,
God manifests as His Spirit in His house
And rather than being the God in the house
Christ is part of the structure that houses God.Gen. 1:1
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. In the Hebrew original text the Word Elohim is used rather than the Word God. Elohim is a plural of the El. So we can see that YHWH, the Father was not alone at creation.
Also in Matt. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us… tells me that Y'shua was there in the beginning with the Father.
There's another clue although I do not recall of hand where, that speaks of His death and assention. The Word clearly states He desended to the earth to bring the good news of the kingdom, He died and was placed in the earth, or the grave, He then assended to the ritght hand of the Father.
Some take this and twist it all around to say Y'shua went to hell to coax the dead to repentance, which goes against all Scripture about the dead who are asleep. We get one shot at getting it right and that is while we are still alive on the planet. After the first death, and for some it will be the only death, there's no repentance.Welcome, Laurel!
Glad you are here. I wish I had more time this weekend to catch up on everyone's posts. I look forward to reading more on Sunday or Monday.
MandyQuote (Laurel @ June 30 2007,16:32) Gen. 1:1
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. In the Hebrew original text the Word Elohim is used rather than the Word God. Elohim is a plural of the El. So we can see that YHWH, the Father was not alone at creation.
Also in Matt. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us… tells me that Y'shua was there in the beginning with the Father.
There's another clue although I do not recall of hand where, that speaks of His death and assention. The Word clearly states He desended to the earth to bring the good news of the kingdom, He died and was placed in the earth, or the grave, He then assended to the ritght hand of the Father.
Some take this and twist it all around to say Y'shua went to hell to coax the dead to repentance, which goes against all Scripture about the dead who are asleep. We get one shot at getting it right and that is while we are still alive on the planet. After the first death, and for some it will be the only death, there's no repentance.
Hi Laurel,Welcome. I believe that the “us” referred to in Matt were the folks here on earth that he was talking to. Not another being with God in the beginning.
Tim
Quote (Laurel @ June 30 2007,16:32) Gen. 1:1
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. In the Hebrew original text the Word Elohim is used rather than the Word God. Elohim is a plural of the El. So we can see that YHWH, the Father was not alone at creation.
Also in Matt. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us… tells me that Y'shua was there in the beginning with the Father.
There's another clue although I do not recall of hand where, that speaks of His death and assention. The Word clearly states He desended to the earth to bring the good news of the kingdom, He died and was placed in the earth, or the grave, He then assended to the ritght hand of the Father.
Some take this and twist it all around to say Y'shua went to hell to coax the dead to repentance, which goes against all Scripture about the dead who are asleep. We get one shot at getting it right and that is while we are still alive on the planet. After the first death, and for some it will be the only death, there's no repentance.
I think that God was called Elohim because the Hebrews thought of Him as being plural.The Hebrews spoke and thought in a language that was descriptive.
They would not call an elephant and elephant. It’s name would be “a large grey animal with a long nose”.If you were asked to describe a pencil you might say that it is a long yellow piece of wood within which is held a soft carbon rod that will leave a mark on a paper substrate. Well maybe you would not describe it just that way, but forty years of being an engineer brings that description to my mind. But if you were to ask a Hebrew the same question he would say “something you write with.” That was how they thought and spoke and wrote.
So to get back to the question about the plurality of God.
Modern man has tended to think of God as a bearded old man sitting on a throne.
He is not. God is the air that we breath, the wind that blows, the sustainer of life itself. GOD IS EVERYTHING! Wouldn’t you think of everything as being plural?Tim
acertainchap.
Read what Is1:18 has written in his proof text #3 on John 1.
It is a locked thread until T8 responds with the “rest of the story”You seem to start a lot of threads with questions that are already being discussed.
Spend some time checking out the rest of the forum. There are a lot of good discussions here.Tim
Quote (Laurel @ June 30 2007,16:32) Gen. 1:1
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. In the Hebrew original text the Word Elohim is used rather than the Word God. Elohim is a plural of the El. So we can see that YHWH, the Father was not alone at creation.
Also in Matt. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us… tells me that Y'shua was there in the beginning with the Father.
There's another clue although I do not recall of hand where, that speaks of His death and assention. The Word clearly states He desended to the earth to bring the good news of the kingdom, He died and was placed in the earth, or the grave, He then assended to the ritght hand of the Father.
Some take this and twist it all around to say Y'shua went to hell to coax the dead to repentance, which goes against all Scripture about the dead who are asleep. We get one shot at getting it right and that is while we are still alive on the planet. After the first death, and for some it will be the only death, there's no repentance.
Hi Laurel:Thanks for your post. I asked God in prayer why he uses Elohim in various places where he refers to himself, and I believe that the answer that He has given me is that He uses the plural because He is “the God of gods and the Lord of lords” as the following scripture indicates:
De 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:Now we know that there is only “One God”, but we as his children have his nature. Jesus is the express image of his person (Hebrews 1:3), and we as born-again Christains are becoming like him as we learn to apply His Word to our daily lives.
When God uses “us” in the following scripture, my understanding is that he was speaking to the spirit of His Son. Let me paste the scripture below:
Gen. 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Verse 1:27 states: “SO GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE”, and so this indicates that in the creation God acted alone.
The first Adam was made a living soul (Gen. 2:7). His spirit personality had not been formed. The spirit of God's children will be formed through obedience to His Word, but because we make mistakes we also need the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins. Of course, in the New Covenant we must first be born-again.
1 Co. 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit.Again Laurel, thanks for your post. My understanding may differ from what some one else has given, but this is my understanding.
God Bless
Gen. 1:1 In the beginning when Elohim (plural) created the heavens and the earth.
What Elohim had written, so it is. Everything was planned for ahead of time, and so it is and it was from the beginning.
My point. I do not venture to go any further since I have not been lead to believe anything else.
Thank you for you comments.I just want to add in the Old Covenant, they must also be born again and the same Messiah who died for us died for them also. By faith Abraham recieved the same promise. They were baptised with water, and as we read the Spirit spoke to those who were.
The difference between the old and new is the old was a shadow of the new. Messiah was pictured as the lamb of Passover to Isreal. Now we know because eyes have seen Y'shua is the Messiah and fulfilled the suffering of the Word as the Passover lamb, who keeps Israel safe from the angel of death.
The old had to come first to teach us that the new was for real. Without the old there is no earthly proof for the new.
Israel knew about Messiah. They had to believe just like we today must proove the new based on the old, by believing the Word is Set-apart. They also had to believe that the Word was Set-apart.
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