Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,08:52)

I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed His conception either, but I do believe that the heavenly being with the spirit of the only begotten son did exist and was born of God Himself on day one of creation as I think you probably know by now.

I'm reading through the thread again and noticed this bit from you. I have a question, if the preexisting heavenly being's spirit was sent into Mary and then developed normally with her contributions, how could the son remain intact? Everything is fused together during pregnancy. DNA strands from both sources bind together to form one strand of new DNA original to that new human being that is formed.

Unless you believe that our spirits are just given from God? Then we have to define what is spirit? Does personality qualify as spirit? What, then? I'm trying to reason this. Thanks.

June 16, 2008 at 5:21 am#92976

Participant

It's 10:25 here on the west coast.

June 16, 2008 at 5:22 am#92977

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,17:20)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 16 2008,00:48)

Hi Kathi – we're both online tonight at the same time!

Quote

I would think that Joseph who was a carpenter could have scraped up a donkey cart but, we aren't told that.

You would think, huh? :laugh:

Quote

Physically though I would guess that things after conception were quite typical.

Do you believe that happened?

Mandy,
What time zone do you live in? It is 1:13 am for me. I need to get to bed.

Maybe He had Mary's wavy hair or her smile etc.

G'nite

Gotcha.

So during a typical conception, say of your 5 kiddos, where did their spirits come from?

June 16, 2008 at 5:39 am#92979

Lightenup

Participant

Ok Mandy,
You are keeping me up now, ya know:)

I have told my friends that had gotten pregnant before they married and realize that what they did was wrong (not waiting for marriage to be intimate), that yes, maybe their child was a result of disobedience to God's perfect plan but what they did was only make the flesh, blood and bones for their child, their DNA makeup. The spirit within that child was no mistake because God directly puts that spirit within them on purpose. That way, they can assure their child that he/she was no mistake. Maybe he/she would have had darker hair or a different color of eyes if the mom and dad had waited for after marriage but they would still have the spirit that God wanted them to have.

So, to answer your question, I believe that God sends the spirit of the person into that person at some point while in the womb.

Now, I really must sign off. I have to work tomorrow.
Have a good night!
Kathi

June 16, 2008 at 6:04 am#92982

Participant

Thanks for staying up to answer me, Kathi.
I'll give your post some thought and comment on it tomorrow.

Sweet dreams,
Mandy

June 16, 2008 at 1:45 pm#93010

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 16 2008,17:20)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2008,08:52)

Unless you believe that our spirits are just given from God? Then we have to define what is spirit? Does personality qualify as spirit? What, then? I'm trying to reason this. Thanks.

Hi Mandy,
You are right when you said all spirits are given from God because He is the source of all Spirits and Life. Jesus must have received his spirit at his birth as we all receive our spirits at our birth I mean it starts at our conception itself.
As we all did not exist prior to our birth whereas our spirits and life must have preexisted in God who is the giver of all spirits. Self same Jesus must have not preexisted as some being prior to his birth but his spirit(spirit of son of God) must have preexisted in God the Father. That's why the bible says his origins are from God or from heaven etc. When we die our spirits go back to God who is the giver of spirits just like Jesus gave up his spirit to God his Father on the cross of Calvary.

I don't know fully there must be some truth in these understandings. I need some more light on these assumptions.
Love to you
Adam

June 16, 2008 at 5:49 pm#93028

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,17:39)

Ok Mandy,
You are keeping me up now, ya know:)

So, to answer your question, I believe that God sends the spirit of the person into that person at some point while in the womb.

Now, I really must sign off. I have to work tomorrow.
Have a good night!
Kathi

HI LU,
There is no scriptural proof that God continues to send new spirits of men into the world.

What is written is that he gave that life to Adam and Eve and commanded them to multiply.

It is my belief that the life given Adam is still passed on at each conception.

Gen1
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

June 16, 2008 at 7:46 pm#93041

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y108997

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,05:49)

It is my belief that the life given Adam is still passed on at each conception.

Nick, I agree.

Kathi, if this is true where would it leave your theory?

June 16, 2008 at 7:59 pm#93043

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 16 2008,15:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,05:49)

It is my belief that the life given Adam is still passed on at each conception.

Nick, I agree.

Kathi, if this is true where would it leave your theory?

Nick and Mandy,

My answer is here on the Holy Spirit thread:

June 16, 2008 at 9:49 pm#93058

Participant

Hi LU,
The individuality we show just displays the bountiful expression of the breath of God.
We should be able to find support in scripture if our ideas are correct.

June 16, 2008 at 9:56 pm#93062

Irene

Participant

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Why is this verse so confusing to so many people? The Apostle John is not the only one that referred to the Son of God as the “Word” of the O.T., “Logos” in Greek.
Hear are Jesus own words.
Rev. 19:13 “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.”
John knew that Jesus was the “Spokesman” for God, the “Word”, because of what he had told them.
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which has sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
Jesus was the Word, the Spokesperson for the Father, hear on earth. For anyone to think that the “Word” was just a thought in the father’s mind, and became the “Word” when he spoke it, is just plain ridiculous. It would than have to be understood as though God spoke his thought into Mary, and it became his son. That would also mean that, when the son had finished his work hear on earth, he was asking the Father to become a thought again in the Father’s mind, right?
John 17:4 “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
v. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Does it not make you wonder where our scholars and theologians get these glorious ideas? Did you notice how verse 5 ended? Before the world was. Jesus is telling us that he existed long before the world was, long before he became one of us, or have you forgotten?
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him.”
Also, how can we ignore the fact that God sent his son that he gave his son?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17 “For God sent not his Son onto the world…”
You cannot give; you cannot send, what you don’t have. Pay close attention to the next two verses.
Luke 8:27 “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils a long time, and ware no cloth, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.”
v. 28 “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.”
These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”
And then there are those that go to the other extreme and say, Jesus had no beginning, he always existed with the Father as a coequal. Read the next three scriptures carefully.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14 “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Every parent knows what a firstborn is. Does anyone not know what an image
is? An image is something you make after something or some one, it is a replica, could be
a statue or painting. Who is the one that created him? Would you agree it is the Creator? Why would Jesus say himself, he is the beginning of God’s creation? Do we think he was lying? So, after reading all these scriptures, what is keeping us from believing the truth, tradition maybe?
Jesus was made in the image of the Father, exactly what is this image? Spirit in nature. Adam was created in the image of God.
Gen. 1:26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was created flesh not spirit, a different nature; so what image was Adam created in? What is it that the Father, the Son and man have in common? A mind, Paul calls it a spirit.
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him…”
God is a thinker, a planer, a builder and creator, and so are we, God made us that way, but most importantly, he gave us a mind to communicate with him. What animal can do that?
Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but he was also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
I believe, anyone that reads Col. 1:15 and 18, and does not believe what it says, it’s not because it is to complicate, it is a simple case of rejecting truth. Preeminence is to be the first in everything. You can read about the beginning of Gods creation, his Son, in the book of Proverbs; it is easiest understood when you read it in the JAMES MOFFAT translation.
Prov. 8:22 “ The Eternal formed me first of his creation, first of all his works in days of old;”
v. 23 “ I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when earth began;”
v. 24 “ I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
v. 25 “ ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born,”
v. 26 “ when earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the World.”
v. 27 “ When he set the heaven up, I was there, when he drew the Vault o’er the abyss,”
v. 28 “ when he made the clouds firm overhead, when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
v. 29 “ when he set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundations for the earth;”
v. 30 “ I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
Anyone who claims that these verses refer to wisdom obviously has none of his own. Read what Paul is teaching the saints.
Acts 13:33 “God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalms, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
You just read the account of the first time God raised up his Son, Prov. 8:22-30. The second time was from the dead. You have to be blind if you can’t see who is being talked about hear. That is exactly why we read in,
John 1:1 “ In the beginning was the Word… (Jesus was the Word).”
When we read in,
Gen. 1:1 “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jesus more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Someone called Jesus good once.
Luke 18:18 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus rebuked him by saying,
v. 19 “And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.”
If Jesus were God he would have never denied being good. That of course does not imply that he wasn’t.
Heb. 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We
acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1 “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2 “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4 “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12 “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7 “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24 “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25 “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39 “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
God created all things for His glory. So then, why did God spared Noah and his family?
Gen. 6:9 “These are the generations of Noah; Noah was a just man and perfect in his
generation, and Noah walked with God.”
What does “perfect in his generations” mean? Noah and his family were the only pure humans left; all others flesh had been corrupted. To mix two kinds creates a hybrid and is an insult to God. The bible does tell us that Jesus was not a mixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
Jesus said he came to ransom many.
Matt. 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
What is a ransom? During wartime prisoners of war were ransomed for other prisoners of war, it was an exchange. Jesus came to trade places with Adam. Jesus took Adams sin, and placed it on himself, freeing Adam from the grave, and taking his place in the grave. At his resurrection, God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid. God of course disposed of the body for obvious reasons. People have worshiped religious objects for centuries. Crosses with bone fragments of saints are especially sought after. Many Christians consider the shroud of Turin the most holy object, worthy of worship. Can you imagine how people would have treaded the body of Christ, had God left him in the tomb?
We are all sinners and deserve death but for now we die for Adam’s sin; or how would you explain the death of infants and little children that know no sin. If we were to die for our sins now, then these little ones should live at least until they have committed a sin. Our only hope was in Jesus Christ who was not of our nature and not effected by the curse of death. God changed his spirit body into a human body; this change did not affect his mind, for he knew who he was, where he came from and why he had come. Jesus knew about his mission from creation,
Rev. 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.”
Although tempted in all things he remained sinless, it was his body that took on our sins, and he became sin for us. In his spirit, his mind, in his heart, he remained without sin.
2 Cor. 5:21 “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.”
Failure was not an option; it would have meant the end of his existence as well as all of ours. Jesus experienced all the things we do in our life, real thirst, real hunger, real pain and death.
Heb. 2:18 “For that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them
that are tempted.”
Heb. 4:15 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Jesus endured it all because his mind was on the eternal not on the temporal.
Heb. 12:2 “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that
was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the
right hand of the throne of God.”
Jesus died and was placed in a tomb, and right hear is were ministers run into a contradiction by what they teach. They say that Jesus was not really dead, that instead he went to “hell”, and preached to the spirits, using this scripture.
1 Pet. 3:19 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
First of all, to say that Jesus went to “hell” is an assumption; the scripture does not say that. Second, to say that these were the souls of deceased sinners, is an assumption too, the scripture does not say that either. Third, to say that you are alive after you die, claiming you have an immortal soul is in total opposition to the word of God. Finally, assuming Jesus went to hell, what prevented him from being tormented by the flames? So, who are these spirits, and what is there prison? It seems that the scripture that gives us the answer has been completely overlooked, or ignored.
v. 20 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the
days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing…”
These spirits are spirit beings, angels, which were disobedient in that they married woman, and produced hybrids. They are the once responsible for the flood, which I referred to a few pages back. Read Jude 6 and 7 and 2 Pet. 2:4 again. It was during the construction of the ark, in the days of Noah, that these spirits, angels, were preached to, told what would await them in the day of final judgment, but they are not being tormented by flames now.
Jesus died; trusting the Father he would raise him up, after three days and three nights, God did raise him up. Jesus was given back his true nature, spirit. His flesh body had taken on all of our sins, was no longer needed and God disposed of it. And why should that have surprised any one, that his body was gone? God did tell us ahead of time, he would not allow his body to decay.
Ps. 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).”
And Paul does explain,
2 Cor. 5:16 “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”
Jesus no longer looked the same, which also explains why all his friends did not recognize him by sight.
John 20:15 “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom
seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4 “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the
disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”
Luke 24:15 “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned,
Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16 “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”
Thomas became a believer because Jesus showed him the wounds, not because he recognized him, John 20:26-29. Jesus could not appear in the same likeness as before, that body had taken on all of our sins, it was the exchange for Adam, it had to remain dead, because that is the penalty for sin, death, Rom. 6:23. Jesus in his spirit body does not look anything like his flesh body that is why all paintings and portraits of him are wrong; including the Shroud of Turin. Had God allowed an image of his son to appear on that shroud, He would have violated his own second commandment.
Forty days after his resurrection Jesus ascended to heaven. God accepted his sacrifice for all of us, and crowned him with glory, a glorious and divine spirit body and immortality.
John 5:26 “For as the Father has life in himself (immortality); so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (immortality).”
And raised him to the highest position of honor.
Eph. 1:20 “Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.”
This was the joy for which he endured the shame and the cross, Heb. 12:2. There is so much the bible wants to tell us, if we were only willing to listen. For instant, how could the Father have given him immortality, if he had it before? How could he have been raised to the highest position of honor, if he had occupied it before? Or, how can he inherit all things, which he already owns?
Heb. 1:2 “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things…”
How could Jesus have been made so much better than the angels?
Heb. 1:4 “Being made so much better than the angels.”
If Jesus was God, could he have been made any more perfect?
Heb. 2:10 “…to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering.”
Had Jesus been God, and immortal, he simply could not have died for us that is what immortality means, death is impossible.
The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is our hope, because he has the keys to unlock the doors to our graves,
Rev. 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (grave) and of death.”
1 Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
v. 23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
Referring to the first resurrection. His coming want be anything like what we
have been told. There want be any visible signs or sounds, which will make us look up. We will not see the dead raised. Jesus himself told us that his coming would be like a thief, and so did Paul.
Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, last he walk naked, and they see his shame.”
1 Thes. 5:2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so kometh as a thief in the night.”
The comparison with a thief is to make a point; his coming will not be noticed.
John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice.”
v. 29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection; and they
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
For many people that have done great evil to others, it may very well be a resurrection of damnation. All will be resurrected with the same thinking, the same attitudes as when they died.
Ezek. 16:53 “When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them.”
v. 54 “That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.”
v. 55 “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Ezekiel is saying, not only will Israel and Judah be restored, resurrected, but Sodom and Samaria, meaning all evil nations will be restored to their former estate as well. All will awake from their grave, thinking they have only been sleeping a few hours.
All will be required to repent and to ask for forgiveness, there may be those that have done such evil deeds that they can’t or wont repent, nor ask for forgiveness; their fait is sealed. The resurrection of the dead will occur during the thousand-year reign of Christ, the Millennium. God designed this period so that all mankind would have the opportunity to learn the truth and repent. It will be the time when Christ will judge the world. But judgment does not come before a trial. We read in,
1 Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and
if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.”
Judgment means teaching, testing, and trials, proving you are worthy to receive the gift of God, eternal life. The house of God is his Church, the body of Christ, the Saints. Judgment was on them first because they would reign with Christ. For all others their time of judgment will be during the millennium. The end of them that obey not the gospel during the millennium is also mentioned in,
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
shall be destroyed from among his people.”
Which of course is the second death, eternal death, from which there is no resurrection. This raises a question; who has your allegiance, your Church, your Minister or God? Remember,
Is. 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is
because there is no light (understanding) in them.”
Also keep in mind what Paul says in,
1 Thes. 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
It is more than good advice!

I know this is rather long but it is very important.
Peace and Love Irene
P.S. My Husband wrote this, but I agree with it 100%. pasting it here makes it easier for my Arthritus hands.

June 16, 2008 at 10:54 pm#93071

JPR

Participant

Irene, I am one of the “ridiculous” ones who believes Jesus is Word, and Word was God. I was never lead to believe that Word (from which Jesus originated) existed for ever. Word (or what ever form He existed in before he became flesh)was “begotten” or “generated” or “born”. Word originated from the Father. Before God spoke the Word, it must have been “in” God and part of God. This, in my human mind can only mean the “Word was God” (As John also put it) and thus must have existed as a thought in God's mind. (It would think that living word and logos word is both applicable to Jesus but the latter is not relevant to my point here.)
I also have no problem with the dual nature of Jesus after he became flesh. He was both son of Man and Son of God. He originated from God and he originated from Man. When we are born of God, we obtained the exact same dual nature than Jesus had, hence he is our oldest brother. This very nature, gives us hope on internal life.
What do you think?

June 17, 2008 at 2:11 am#93089

Participant

Hi JPR,
Right on brother, I only want to add few things with that. Jesus' role came into picture only when he was born on this earth (Heb 1:1-2). The “glory” people repeatedly quote in John 17:5 is of “before the foundations of the world” not in between I mean nothing was mentioned of this glory from the foundations of world till Jesus's resurrection. People close their eyes and interpret scripture by quoting repeatedly the same verses again and again to prove Jesus' pre-existence. Does that prove this new doctrine? If we don't understand how God sees every thing in His plan before that really comes into existence, then we are making God just like us humans. See the verse in Is 55:8-11

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
9 As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.
10For just as from the heavens the rain and snow come down And do not return there till they have watered the earth, making it fertile and fruitful, Giving seed to him who sows and bread to him who eats,
11So shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; It shall not return to me void, but shall do my will, achieving the end for which I sent it”

If they understand these verses clearly that God's word is living and can produce any thing to fulfill the very purpose of God, then they can not make Jesus another God-being which allegedly they claim was with God in the beginning.
Jesus is called the “word of God” in Revelation 19, no conflict in that now Jesus has become God's living word that's why he used to mention that the words he spoke were of his Father not of his own.
Jesus was born through conception process not in a mystical way that some pre-existing being entered Mary's womb.
Do share more on this issue.
Peace to you
Adam

June 17, 2008 at 2:18 am#93092

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Gollamudi…….right on brother. You have it right

peace to you and yours………..gene

June 17, 2008 at 2:24 am#93095

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,14:11)

Hi JPR,
Right on brother, I only want to add few things with that. Jesus' role came into picture only when he was born on this earth (Heb 1:1-2). The “glory” people repeatedly quote in John 17:5 is of foundations of the world not in between I mean nothing was mentioned of this glory from the foundations of world till Jesus's resurrection. People close their eyes and interpret scripture by quoting repeatedly the same verses again and again to prove Jesus' pre-existence. Does that prove this new doctrine? If we don't understand how God sees every thing in His plan before that really comes into existence, then we are making God just like us humans. See the verse in Is 55:8-11

If they understand these verses clearly that God's word is living and can produce any thing to fulfill the very purpose of God, then they can not make Jesus another God-being which allegedly they claim was with God in the beginning.
Jesus is called the “word of God” in Revelation 19, no conflict in that now Jesus has become God's living word that's why he used to mention that the words he spoke were of his Father not of his own.
Jesus was born through conception process not in a mystical way that some pre-existing being was entered Mary's womb.
Do share more on this issue.
Peace to you
Adam

Hi GM,
Jn17.5
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Before the world was.
Seems pretty straightforward.
The sons of God were there when those foundations were laid.[Jb 38]

June 17, 2008 at 2:53 am#93098

Participant

Yes Nick, the foreordained glory in the plan of God for His son jesus. What is so difficult in understanding that? In God's plan everything would be in the past tense only for example see this verse in Eph 1:3-6
3 ” Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, 4 as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love 5 he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will, 6 for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved”

and also this Eph 2:3-10

3 “All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ 5 (by grace you have been saved),
6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them”

If we have already been resurrected and are seated with Christ in heavenly places why are we still fighting here in our feeble bodies? See my friend and believe that God sees every thing as past and happened already in His master plan that's why every thing appears as past(tense) only.
Take care
Adam

June 17, 2008 at 3:12 am#93100

Participant

Hi GM,
I do not see FOREORDAINED in the verse??
Can what you HAVE HAD been called FOREORDAINED?
Does that not speak of the FUTURE and not the PAST?

June 17, 2008 at 4:24 am#93106

Participant

Quote (JPR @ June 17 2008,10:54)

Word originated from the Father. Before God spoke the Word, it must have been “in” God and part of God.

I've never heard anyone else proclaim this truth!
Of course even you and I have a slightly different spin on what we believe this means.

I believe Jesus was “in” or “part of” God in that he was his potential son. Jesus is the literal Son of God. Sort of like you, as a man, carry around with you the potential for sons, for example.

June 17, 2008 at 5:27 am#93117