Preexistence

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick you “he was begotten of God in the beginning”, where is the proof my friend? There is plenty of proof that he was begotten of God through conception in the womb of Mary.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
What you cannot see we are not responsible for.

[Lightenup]

To all,
Here are two places that Jesus is referred to as God and Savior. You probably are aware that I believe He is called God here because He is the begotten God.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2008,23:22)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2008,06:29) Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2008,13:16) Hi kathi, Then why are you stopping with two (Gods) only go ahead and add another leftout “The Holy Spirit” who is also called God in many places in N.T. I have already told you that if you start interpreting the  scriptures like that you will end up inventing more than one God like two, three and many. You people don't understand the existence of God Himself how can you get to know His revelations and manifestations. If you see in O.T there are many places where the angel of the LORD was talking like God Himself for example to Moses in the bush, but in N.T we have been told by Stephen that was only an angel (Act 7). Jesus is the manifestation of that One and only God it doesn't make Jesus another God my Sis. Please think even the Holy Spirit as WJ was argueing with you is another manifestation of that One God that's why many places the Holy Spirit(another comforter) was also mentioned as if God is talking to us. God is always same and He is never changing (1 Tim 6:15-17). His invisible characteristics and His immortality never can change. That's why “no one ever has seen Him” as in 1 Jn 4:12 even after Jesus came to the earth as a human and manifested that One God to us. You can not equate anybody with that one God because He will not give His glory(as God) to anybody even to His Son. Phil 2:6 was debated n-number of times here I don't see any differece in that to accept any pre-existence. If you want you can see the explanations given by Gene. Hope you people will understand this. Adam Hi Golla, Can you show me where the Holy Spirit is called “God”.  I know that it is referred to as “of God” and I understand that God speaks to us through His Holy Spirit.  I know that God comforts us through His Holy Spirit and thus the Holy Spirit within us is our Comforter. But I do not know where it says that the Holy Spirit is called “God”.  Please show me if you get the time.   Press on, LU Hi LU, Here are the verses that the Holy Spirit is called God: 1. Acts 5:3-4 2. 1 Cor 6:19-20 3. Heb 3:7 (the original verse was spoken by God in O.T) Like this there are many verses indirectly referring the Holy Spirit to God, infact the personification of the Holy Spirit is as active as you are claiming the 'word' in Jn 1:1-5. One more thing that the Holy Spirit is in subordination to Jesus, then how can you make it (him) as Father's personal Spirit or Jesus' Spirit? See the verses : Jn 15:26 (Jesus sending the Holy Spirit) Jn 16:13-15(Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus and follows his words)        Remember these things if you want to make Jesus as begotten God instead of begotten son you are making more than One God which bible disagrees every where. if you want to make Jesus as God through whom God was manifested, then you have to make the Holy Spirit also another God as same God is manifesting Himself through the Holy Spirit.         Therefore I believe there is only One God the Father who manifests Himself through Angels (in O.T),His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit which(who) is living in us. I have quoted earlier that not a single manifestation like angels, Jesus or the Holy Spirit make more than One God. if you believe this I don't think there will be any confusion in understanding Monotheism of the Bible. Peace to you Adam

Hi Golla,
Those verses only connect the Holy Spirit to God. They do not say that the spirit is God.

The spirit of God is something that is always under the control of the Most High God even as it flows through Jesus to us. Remember that Jesus had to ask for the Father to give it to us. Also, Jesus is telling His disciples that the “Helper” is a greater advantage to have than even Himself. See John 16:7

Joh 14:16
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

John 16:7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

The Spirit of God is always under the control of the Most High God Himself. It would be to our advantage to make the most of this “Helper” because it is our connection with the Most High God, Himself.

Jesus could only send it because of the Father's agreement.

Also, Golla, I have over and over stated that there is only one that is God in the fullest sense of the word. He had a son who is not God in the fullest sense of the word but is God in nature and form because He is the child of God. God begat God. Can't you get that straight. When you sum that up and say that I believe in two Gods you are confusing my words by making them appear both equally God. Please stop giving the wrong impression. And also, please do not make assumptions that I will make even more gods. You do not represent me fairly. I can tell from these things that you do not have my best interests in mind. Please do not pretend that you do.

LU

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2008,17:41)

God begat God.

Hi Kathi,

I'm curious, what do you think happened (if anything) to the preexistent begotten Son of God when he was begotten, yet again, during the conception of Mary?

[Not3in1]

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY to all you Dad's out there!

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2008,03:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2008,17:41) God begat God. Hi Kathi, I'm curious, what do you think happened (if anything) to the preexistent begotten Son of God when he was begotten, yet again, during the conception of Mary?

Hi Mandy,
I'm not sure of your question. Hmmmm…What happened to Him when He was begotten, well, I would say that He received life. Later, during the conception of Mary, He was alive before His conception, so I think He went “out of body” and into the body of the baby Jesus.

God bless,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2008,03:43)

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY to all you Dad's out there!

I want to second that. Thank you men/fathers for being the kind to seek God and study His word. Have a great day enjoying your children.
Many blessings,
Kathi

[gsilva72]

To any trinitarian: If Jesus pre-existed, in what form did he pre-exist in? Did he pre-exist as a soul? Or another Spirit? Also, does John 6:46 mean that Jesus pre-existed. It reads John 6:46 ” Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.”

[gsilva72]

Happy Fathers Day to any Fathers.

[seek and you will find]

Well since so many wish Happy Fathers on here, I will follow suite, even tho I did so on the Poetry tread also. Have a nice Day everyone.
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

gsilva72…..You stated something interesting, “no one has seen the Father except He who is from God, he has seen the Father. I would like to commit on that . We like to think the word seen means to actually physically see something. But what if God can only be seen through the minds eye. What if there is no actual physical manifestation of The Father, Lets say He is pure spirit and never was Physical in appearance. Jesus even said the Kingdom of God come not with Observation, but is within you.

So when Jesus said no man have ever seen the Father he could have meant Himself also that is in a physical sense. Maybe the Father can be Known but never actually seen except through the minds eye. Maybe He is pure Spirit and nothing else and only cam be perceived that way. This seems to be supported by a lot of scripture.
The spiritual realm seems to be more mind then matter. Maybe God the Father is pure thought energy. And when He comes to indwell us His thoughts take over ours and we and we take on His very nature and in this way we then truly IMAGE Him.

Just some things to think about………….gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2008,19:43)

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY to all you Dad's out there!

Thanks Mandy,Kathi,Irene,Silva and others for your good wishes for us all fathers. May God our Father bless all of us with His love and protection.
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 16 2008,02:51)

gsilva72…..You stated something interesting, “no one has seen the Father except He who is from God, he has seen the Father. I would like to commit on that . We like to think the word seen means to actually physically see something. But what if God can only be seen through the minds eye. What if there is no actual physical manifestation of The Father, Lets say He is pure spirit and never was Physical in appearance. Jesus even said the Kingdom of God come not with Observation, but is within you. So when Jesus said no man have ever seen the Father he could have meant Himself also that is in a physical sense. Maybe the Father can be Known but never actually seen except through the minds eye. Maybe He is pure Spirit and nothing else and only cam be perceived that way. This seems to be supported by a lot of scripture. The spiritual realm seems to be more mind then matter. Maybe God the Father is pure thought energy. And when He comes to indwell us His thoughts take over ours and we and we take on His very nature and in this way we then truly IMAGE Him. Just some things to think about………….gene

Hi Gene,
yes it is some thing new for me also to understand this particular verse Jn 6:46. I always wonder how Jesus has seen God? I need more revelations on this. Even after Jesus quoted this statement but John has not left with that he further repeated the same in 1 Jn 4:12 “no one has ever seen God” If Jesus has seen Father how did John quote this in his Epistle? It means Jesus' seeing Father is some thing different from this seeing.
We may have to debate on this.
Peace to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2008,17:41)

Also, Golla, I have over and over stated that there is only one that is God in the fullest sense of the word.  He had a son who is not God in the fullest sense of the word but is God in nature and form because He is the child of God. God begat God. Can't you get that straight.  When you sum that up and say that I believe in two Gods you are confusing my words by making them appear both equally God. Please stop giving the wrong impression.  And also, please do not make assumptions that I will make even more gods.  You do not represent me fairly.  I can tell from these things that you do not have my best interests in mind.  Please do not pretend that you do.   LU

Hi Lu,
Thanks Sis, sorry I might have not represented you fully. Please don't say the word as I am “pretending”. What is the necessity for me to pretend to do that? Every thing is open here for discussion, no one knows every thing. We are trying to release our inhibitions and understanding other's perspectives.
peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,01:16)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2008,03:41) Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2008,17:41) God begat God. Hi Kathi, I'm curious, what do you think happened (if anything) to the preexistent begotten Son of God when he was begotten, yet again, during the conception of Mary? Hi Mandy, I'm not sure of your question.  Hmmmm…What happened to Him when He was begotten, well, I would say that He received life.  Later, during the conception of Mary, He was alive before His conception, so I think He went “out of body” and into the body of the baby Jesus. God bless, Kathi

Thanks, Kathi. You understood my question exactly right.

You believe that along with a supernatural conception that the rules for conception also changed for Jesus? Would that be fair to say?

Thanks,
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2008,14:27)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,01:16) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2008,03:41) Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2008,17:41) God begat God. Hi Kathi, I'm curious, what do you think happened (if anything) to the preexistent begotten Son of God when he was begotten, yet again, during the conception of Mary? Hi Mandy, I'm not sure of your question.  Hmmmm…What happened to Him when He was begotten, well, I would say that He received life.  Later, during the conception of Mary, He was alive before His conception, so I think He went “out of body” and into the body of the baby Jesus. God bless, Kathi Thanks, Kathi.  You understood my question exactly right. You believe that along with a supernatural conception that the rules for conception also changed for Jesus?  Would that be fair to say? Thanks, Mandy

Mandy,
Not sure of what “rules” for conception you mean. I think that I have told you before that God through His Holy Spirit put a holy seed (sperm) within Mary's egg which resulted in a body prepared for Christ that did not carry the curse of sin. Just my opinion sweet Mandy.

Blessings,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Hi Kathi,

Hope you are enjoying a nice Father's Day. Dan is in the back yard playing baseball with the kids. Like the “Field of Dreams” we have a baseball diamond in our back yard. Not professional like the movie, but it does have all bases, home plate and a backstop. It's pretty cool. Oh, and we even have room for a limited amount of fans (neighbor kids). I'm surprised I have not lost a window yet!

Kathi, you say:

Quote

Not sure of what “rules” for conception you mean.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been, sorry. From supernatural conception to birth, do you believe Mary's pregnancy was as any other women's pregnancy?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2008,21:04)

Hi Kathi, Hope you are enjoying a nice Father's Day.  Dan is in the back yard playing baseball with the kids.  Like the “Field of Dreams” we have a baseball diamond in our back yard.  Not professional like the movie, but it does have all bases, home plate and a backstop.  It's pretty cool.  Oh, and we even have room for a limited amount of fans (neighbor kids).  I'm surprised I have not lost a window yet!   Kathi, you say: Quote Not sure of what “rules” for conception you mean. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been, sorry.  From supernatural conception to birth, do you believe Mary's pregnancy was as any other women's pregnancy?

Hi Mandy,
Glad that ya'll are having a fun day and that Dan is making good memories with the kids. Where about do you live? I grew up with a ball field next to our house. Great fun! I remember being out there everyday!

Quote

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been, sorry. From supernatural conception to birth, do you believe Mary's pregnancy was as any other women's pregnancy?

I would guess that emotionally her pregnancy was very different since she could have been stoned, or sent away privately like a baaaaaad girl. Also, all the questions about how does one raise the Messiah would have probably overwhelmed her. Not to mention having to ride a donkey at nine months pregnant.
It doesn't actually say that she rode a donkey. I would think that Joseph who was a carpenter could have scraped up a donkey cart but, we aren't told that.

Physically though I would guess that things after conception were quite typical. Just guessing tho.

Later,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Hi Kathi – we're both online tonight at the same time!

Quote

I would think that Joseph who was a carpenter could have scraped up a donkey cart but, we aren't told that.

You would think, huh?

Quote

Physically though I would guess that things after conception were quite typical.

I realize this is just a guess. We all have to guess at so much, don't we? We rely on the Spirit, but even then we get mixed messages. You and I are two excellent examples of that! Our theories have been given to us by revelation yet they are opposing ideas. Go figure.

Anyway, the reason I wanted to know if you felt everything went “typical” after the supernatural conception is because the fact still remains that whatever was placed inside of Mary (whether it be a “holy” sperm OR the preexistent begotten only of God – Son) was ALTERED when the cells began to divide and fuse with Mary's DNA. This is a “typical” pregnancy.

Do you believe that happened?

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