Preexistence

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 08 2008,00:13)

OK, so lets just ignore the scriptures that talk of Jesus in the glory that he had with the Father for a few minutes.

Lets imagine that he came into existence as a man 2000 or so years ago and didn't come down from heaven and partake of flesh as it is written.

Given that scenario/doctrine/teaching the following predicaments appear:

If Adam hadn't of sinned, then there would be no Jesus.

If there was no Jesus, then there would be no creation that God created all things through.

There would be no image of the invisible God, therefore God would never be represented fully in any one being.

Probably Michael would be the highest being as he is leader of the angels.

So no sin, no Jesus. Jesus was created as a backup plan to save man. Yet scripture says that all things were made for him. Doesn't sound like a backup plan to Adam's failings to me, sounds like plan A.

But this teaching that denies that Jesus said “before Abraham, I am” can only mean that Jesus is not God's primary will, but Adam was.

So ask yourself why Adam is the original man (firstborn) and why Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and has preeminence in all things. I wouldn't say that Adam was firstborn of all creation would you?

OK, now that I have proved my point, you can go back to remembering the scriptures that talk of Jesus glory with the Father before creation when I click my fingers.

Snap!

t8 You have given every one a good explanation of the preexisting of Jesus. And I agree with that. Along with that goes Col. 1:15-18 and Rev. 3:14 John 6:38, John 1:15,John 1:3, Hebrew 1:1-2 So many Scriptures that gives one explanation after the other, and yet some still don't seem to grasp it. To me that also teaches a different Jesus and Scripture is not to kind about that.
So for all that disagree, do yourself a big favor and study this again and meditate on it, if God is willing He will let you understand it. But you must have an open mind. Like I said before it took me some time too.
May God be with you.
Peace and Love Irene

June 7, 2008 at 4:10 pm#91748

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2008,21:47)

Hi GM,
It matters less that Jesus was the man from heaven compared with his gospel of salvation.
But I believe the truth does reveal his unique origins.

Hi Nick,
No man can stay in heaven, jesus became a man only on his birth through Mary. You people never get this mystery that God can make every thing and fulfill His will through a son of man who is born of a woman (see Heb 2:6-10). It doesn't require another Godly being for fulfilling His will for Him. When sin entered through one man (Adam) you all know that he was not an extrordinary being to pass on the sin to many in this world what so difficult in understanding that God can bring righteousness through another man similar to the first. But for You it requires an extrordinary being who should pre-exist as Godly being. Where is it written in O.T or any prophetic scriptures which talked about Jesus' future birth they never talked about his pre-existence. Why do you want to take these trinitarian or Arians' interpretations and prove this false doctrine. Don't you see it is not truth that you want to stick?
You never replied me or Gene of which form or being Jesus was pre-existing? You better believe JW interpretations than this. I give full marks to Trinitarian at least they don't misinterpret in that way claiming more than two Gods.
Sorry my friends my heart is burning by seeing all these wrong interpretations of scriptures saying ” the light was the son” or son was an angel or spirit so on and soforth. Please leave your misguiding people about the monotheism believing there is only one God but there is also another with that one God.
I am vexed with such repeated dogma.
See the truth.
Adam

June 7, 2008 at 5:53 pm#91761

942767

Participant

Hi t8 & LU:

Jesus pre-existed as the “logos”, and so with the best Greek that you can conjure figure out what it means and you will have the answer.

God has seen everything from the beginning to the end, even that Adam and Eve would sin, and so, Adam's disobedience was not what prompted God to implement Jesus as plan “B”. God had foreseen all of this but he did not plan the fall of man. Having forseen all things, He did plan for the redemption of mankind. This is something that God himself did for us, and therefore, it is different than having foreseen Adam's sin or my birth into this world. He gave humanity the greatest gift that we could want and that is His gift of love in the person of His Only Begotten Son and our Lord Jesus.

God Bless

June 7, 2008 at 7:04 pm#91772

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,04:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2008,21:47)

Hi GM,
It matters less that Jesus was the man from heaven compared with his gospel of salvation.
But I believe the truth does reveal his unique origins.

Hi GM,
Is God anly allowed to work within your undestanding?
The man from heaven is the Lord Jesus.

1Cor15

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Was he from heaven?
Yes
Was he a man in heaven.
No.
Was he a man when he partook of flesh, the body prepared for him?
Yes.
Was he different from us as a man?
No.
Did his origins give him any advantages?
No.

He was an anointed man.
We can follow him into that eternal anointing.

June 7, 2008 at 11:54 pm#91782

Participant

Adam……Jesus the man was from Mary preplanned by God who is in Heaven And that God came into Him by His Holy Spirit and perfected him and he overcame the world and became this firstborn son of God from the dead.. Remember God said (THIS DAY) I have begotten YOU, not some time in the past.

Do not let any steal what you Have . God has given you the understanding an if others don't understand it, that their problem not yours.

Love and peace to you and yours……..gene

June 8, 2008 at 12:26 am#91783

942767

Participant

Hi t8:

You say:

Quote

The first man Adam was created and became a living soul when God breathed into him the breathe of life. Jesus is the Last Adam God's firstborn. The first man to be born of God of all of mankind. And he is the first man born again from the dead.

And so, I do not see that you have proven anything about pre-existence.

God Bless

June 8, 2008 at 1:29 am#91785

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,11:54)

Do not let any steal what you Have . God has given you the understanding an if others don't understand it, that their problem not yours.

Love and peace to you and yours……..gene

Thanks Gene,
Yes, they can not deviate from their old story and that is their problem you have rightly told.

Hi 942767,
You are right my brother, Jesus is the first born of all creation is about his pre-eminence among all created beings not that he was begotten in some mystified way by God as some are believing here. As long as they don't believe Jesus' origins in Mary they make Jesus more than a man rather some pre-existing being for which there is no proof in the O.T. Their heart knows it better but they don't want to accept this truth because of their old understanding.
You know Jesus became first in God's new creation through resurrection, please recollect Jesus' words “first will be last and the last will be first” therefore Jesus the second(last) Adam became first in God's new creation.
Take care
Adam

June 8, 2008 at 1:50 am#91787

942767

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2008,12:26)

Hi t8:

You say:

Quote

And so, I do not see that you have proven anything about pre-existence.

God Bless

Quote

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

June 8, 2008 at 1:58 am#91788

Participant

942767………I agree with you, good post. Most don't see how seeing Jesus as a man like us is so important to the plan and purpose of the Father. Giving Jesus a untrue advantage over us changes our perception of him, and breaks down our confidence level in God. Because we think Jesus really had an advantage by a prier existence. But thats not how God wants us to see Jesus, i believe he want us to understand Jesus was a second Adam, exact Human like us with no advantage except God had planned all along that he would become the first born son into the kingdom of God from mankind, and realize how God empowered and Perfect him and realize it's the same way He can and will perfect us also. There is no difference between Jesus and us, He was just the First to make it so to speak. If we separate Jesus form our exact likeness we are pushing him away, without even realizing it.

peace……………gene

June 8, 2008 at 5:06 am#91802

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,13:58)

peace……………gene

You just do not understand that Jesus emptied Himself and then became a Human. Let me ask you how can you ignore so many Scriptures that shows tha Jesus preexsisted. Jesus also was somewhat diffrerent then us, as far as having God's Holy Spirit full strenght. Who else had God's Holy Spirit full strenght? Not that I know off. He was the firstborn of all creation. He created all by the power of God the Father. He created all for Him and through Him. And now Father Gorify Me with the Golry I had with You before the world was. “These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”
Let me ask you how else can you understand this then what it says. It also inlines with John 1:1 In the beinning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. It has nothing to do with the trinity Doctrine. I do not believe in the trinity, BTW. In the Word became flesh. Here you see how He gave up His glory and became a Man. One more thing, do you think if Jesus was a mere man do you think He would have sinned? All Man have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God. Evem tho He was tested like us, He could not and would not have sinned, because He knew what was at stake.
Peace and Love Mrs.

June 8, 2008 at 6:19 am#91807

Not3in1

Participant

I'm beginning to think that Jesus had to be “other” than us and perhaps preexistent as well.

Jesus didn't sin. I know the theory goes that we can be like Jesus if we only try…..but believe me I've tried not to sin – it's just not my nature. :;): So I'm thinking maybe God really did need an incarnation/man to come down and do the job considering no real human/man could?

Sure, that puts Jesus a little out of reach for us, but let's face it, how many folks can walk like Jesus did anyway? I know of no one. Perhaps it's the idea of Jesus and his messages that we are to strive for (love one another, give to the poor and so on), not to actually attain what Jesus was on earth. I mean, hello, he didn't sin…..how can we attain that? I think it's more frustrating to think we can be like Jesus (we just set ourselves up to fail), rather than to believe Jesus was fundamentally different and so we can only hope to live as he did.

After all, man did screw things up. Maybe God really did come down in the form of some incarnation/transfer/light-filling vessel to save our a**'s?

I'm really starting over here. I've got my studies out and a new piece of paper. I think I've been missing something……

Mandy

June 8, 2008 at 6:28 am#91809

Participant

Hi not3,
The God who brought him up to avoid sin also shared His Spirit with him.
Kazoom..

June 8, 2008 at 6:42 am#91813

Participant

Mrs….no offence but you don't believe Jesus was really like you do you. That was one of my points, neither does anyone, who views Jesus as different from us.

Let me just try to show you something with God the fathers help, because i do believe you are sincere in what you believe.

I ask you to follow me and see what peace you will recieve in your heart and mind ok……..> try to see Jesus as a man like any man in your mind and emagine that God the Father decided to use him as the firstborn son from his human childern, so he took him and taught him obedience and many other things and perfected him and raised him first from his brothers and sisters as the first born from heaven a son who had the full image of him in his heart and mind. And it was Jesus never had to use His own “FREE WILL” for anything, but the father inside him guided him into total obedience a ordinary human being who rached perfecton by the hand of the Father. Now i ask you wouldn't that be a wonderfull example for us poor human beings and couldn't we gain hope in the Father by knowing that one of us turned out perfect, If you see our brother Jesus that way you will feel closer to him then you ever have, i know i do.

love and peace to you and yours……….gene

June 8, 2008 at 6:48 am#91814

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 08 2008,18:19)

I'm beginning to think that Jesus had to be “other” than us and perhaps preexistent as well.

After all, man did screw things up. Maybe God really did come down in the form of some incarnation/transfer/light-filling vessel to save our a**'s?

I'm really starting over here. I've got my studies out and a new piece of paper. I think I've been missing something……

Mandy

Great you are beginning to understand. I know how hard it is to let go of something we don't believe and admit that we were wrong. I had to do that too. It was a J.W. that first told me about the preexisting of Jesus and I thought that He was crazy. But I guess I said this before, that God did not leave me in that belief.
Keep on searching and Bless you.
Peace and Love Irene

June 8, 2008 at 7:17 am#91817

Participant

Not3in1 ….. the reason Jesus never sinned was because He was never allowed to be infected with sin , We would have been the same way if God the Fathers Spirit was in us at berth, Jesus was given power to keep sin out of his life at berth. It had nothing to do with a preexistence and if it did then he could not have been exactly like us in (EVERY) way could he. Mandy we have to understand Jesus' overcoming and perfection was the Fathers doing, He plainly said He could do nothing on his own. So he could not have mastered sin on his own either and still be considered human.

think about it Mandy…………gene

June 8, 2008 at 7:43 am#91818

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,18:42)

Mrs….no offence but you don't believe Jesus was really like you do you. That was one of my points, neither does anyone, who views Jesus as different from us.

Let me just try to show you something with God the fathers help, because i do believe you are sincere in what you believe.

love and peace to you and yours……….gene

Did you read my post, where I said that I believe that Jesus was not like us and did have God's Holy Spirit full strength. But I also believe and Scripture tells me so that Jesus was with the Father as a Spirit Being and the Father taught Him all things and He knew what was at stake and did not sin. Because He had the Fathers Holy Spirit full strength He was able not to sin. He was not at all like me, otherwise He would have sinned. All have fallen short of the glory of God and have sinned, except Jesus. As far as being close to Jesus, I am and have been for some times, my Brother.
Bless you.
Peace and Love Mrs.

June 8, 2008 at 9:46 am#91827

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 08 2008,18:19)

I'm beginning to think that Jesus had to be “other” than us and perhaps preexistent as well.

After all, man did screw things up. Maybe God really did come down in the form of some incarnation/transfer/light-filling vessel to save our a**'s?

I'm really starting over here. I've got my studies out and a new piece of paper. I think I've been missing something……

Mandy

Hi Mandy,
What happened to you my Sis? Why do you suddenly change to 180 degrees? Who told that we can be like Jesus if we try? How can you expect that you can be like Jesus by trying? Jesus was without sin because God the Father was in Him by Spirit. “That's why Jesus told my father is in me”. Not that God himself incarnated as Jesus that is 'Oneness' belief. See Heb 2:14-18, he was made like us in all respects to be tempted like us and to taste death. He was also flesh and blood like you and me. Don't let your understanding stray away from this truth my Sis. You need not become like Jesus in all respect just believe what God did in Jesus. That's all that faith saves us from the second death. Jesus is our high priest who is also a man-mediator between that one God and us. If you want to become like Jesus by yourself you can never become and you will end in failure as you have rightly told. It doesn't mean that you have to prove Jesus' pre-existence for that.
Think on these lines gothrough this topic from beginning till the end you will find how God was revealing things in a clear manner.
Love to you
Adam

June 8, 2008 at 9:55 am#91829

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,19:17)

think about it Mandy…………gene

Hi GM,
WAs the Spirit of the Father IN CHRIST at birth?
Is it written?

In fact he came in the likeness of SINFUL FLESH.
Rom8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

June 8, 2008 at 9:57 am#91830