Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2008,06:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2008,05:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2008,05:11) Quote (gollamudi @ June 06 2008,05:04) Thanks WJ, You are such an elderly man. Please console our sisters they are in agitated mood with you now. Don't hurt their feelings because without woman there is no Jesus. Adam Adam, I love your manner of speaking.  The English language sounds so beautiful coming out of your mouth! Ya, Keith, we think you're an old fart now…..and you've really got us ticked off!  (Adam, that's my interpretation of what you said).   Hey GM and Mandy! I know you girls may feel some pain and you may get even madder for me saying this… They say that passing a kidney stone the size of a pea through a mans _ _ _ _ _ is worse than child birth, but you dont hear men whining about that. UH OH I can see the stones coming now! Yes, I've heard that passing stones through (and by the way “penis” is not a bad word, OK?  ha!) is mighty painful.  OUCH! Anyway, I just think you are not able to appreciate the whole birthing thing simply because you are a man.  That's cool.  Just don't down-play the womens' lot in life – it will just make them angry with you.  If you don't believe me, as your wife!

Mandy

Yea I know, you are right.

Please forgive me Ladies.

I love women and have a great respect for their role playing in child bearing, just having some fun

Please though dont forget about the husbands role of almost loosing fingers etc.

[Not3in1]

It's all good.
And it's good to laugh, too!
A little break from the heavy stuff around here…..

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2008,05:05)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2008,04:58) The second baby oh who listens to me anyway…. Oh, Kathi, you have me laughing this morning! No, men won't “get it” because they have NO CLUE what it takes to pop out a weasle!

Boy, Oh Boy am I with your girls. I had 4 and one was breach, talking about pain. 28 hrs. in Labor. Now come again W.J.
Love all Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Do we need a thread to discuss childbirth?

God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh[Rom1]
yet some would say there was no son to send.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
So you want us back on subject do you:D

You are right, some say there was no son to send. Some say that an eternal word was sent, some say that a for-ordained plan was sent. I wonder how either of those ideas emptied themselves before Christ was conceived. Did the eternal word become wordless? Did the plan become ,well, I don't know how a plan does or becomes anything on its own doing but that is what many on here claim???

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2008,09:27)

I wonder how either of those ideas emptied themselves before Christ was conceived.

Hi Kathi,

Where does scripture teach us that Christ emptied himself prior to being born?

I had thought that Philippians said he found himself in the likeness of man and then he humbled himself…… No?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Check the order.
Phil2
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2008,17:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2008,09:27) I wonder how either of those ideas emptied themselves before Christ was conceived. Hi Kathi, Where does scripture teach us that Christ emptied himself prior to being born? I had thought that Philippians said he found himself in the likeness of man and then he humbled himself……  No?

Hi Mandy,
Does it matter since the scripture that says it is in a book you have chosen to disregard anyway and is covered in dust? Well, I'll take a chance that it still matters to you or at least to others that may be reading this. I do not mean to offend you Mandy, but isn't that where your Bible is. You've said that it needs dusting off yourself.

Phil 2:7-8
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
NASU

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2008,09:42)

Hi not3, Check the order. Phil2 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Hi Nick,
you are forgetting that Paul written this epistle after Jesus' resurrection not when he ( jesus) was on earth. Therefore “he existed in the form of God while on earth not before his birth” don't you accept this that he was literal son of God as you always quote? Has Jesus not humbled himself and given off all his rights as son of God and taken the form of servant as any ordinary man like you and me. What so difficult in understanding Paul's words in this passage can't you understand that Jesus was second Adam like the first one who was also in the form of God but wanted to become equal to God and fallen? But Jesus did not use his previlleges as son of God while on earth but humbled himself to the Father even to extent of death on a cross like a cursed being. you can not get the right meaning of Paul who can not quote different scriptures on Jesus' nature that he was Lord messiah not God himself as per 1 Cori 8:6. Many trinitarians even nontrinitarian like you make  Phil 2:6 to prove Jesus' divinity and his pre-existence. There is the utter confusion in making two Gods by misinterpreting this verse.
Take care
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Check the order in which it is written.
You cannot rearrange the order to support your doctrine.
His coming in the likeness of man was AFTER he was in the form of God.

Adam wanted to become equal to God?
He followed the god of this world, and his wife.

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick,
That's why I told you that 'for you there are more than one God'. You can not get the monotheism fully even a trinitarian will laugh at your belief making more than one God in this universe, he is none but God the Father. I don't know how you people relate words of Paul in different ways both verses these two Phil 2:6 and 1 Cori 8:6. You don't see any logic in understanding. Who can convince such people?
Take care
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 06 2008,21:24)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2008,09:42) Hi not3, Check the order. Phil2 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Hi Nick, you are forgetting that Paul written this epistle after Jesus' resurrection not when he ( jesus) was on earth. Therefore “he existed in the form of God while on earth not before his birth” don't you accept this that he was literal son of God as you always quote? Has Jesus not humbled himself and given off all his rights as son of God and taken the form of servant as any ordinary man like you and me. What so difficult in understanding Paul's words in this passage can't you understand that Jesus was second Adam like the first one who was also in the form of God but wanted to become equal to God and fallen? But Jesus did not use his previlleges as son of God while on earth but humbled himself to the Father even to extent of death on a cross like a cursed being. you can not get the right meaning of Paul who can not quote different scriptures on Jesus' nature that he was Lord messiah not God himself as per 1 Cori 8:6. Many trinitarians even nontrinitarian like you make Phil 2:6 to prove Jesus' divinity and his pre-existence. There is the utter confusion in making two Gods by misinterpreting this verse. Take care Adam

Gollmaudi………You are absolutely right in what you said here. Jesus was (another) Adam made in the image of God also. But where the First Adam failed, Jesus the Second Adam succeeded because God was with Him from berth. And He was destined for that, glory of being the Firstborn to totally image God, and did.

You got it right brother.

Love and peace to you and yours……………gene

[gollamudi]

Thank you brother Gene.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2008,09:42)

Hi not3, Check the order. Phil2 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Nick,

Thank you very much for taking the time to show me this. I've been doing some pondering lately regarding your theories. Like I said a little while ago, I believe a little light is turning on. I'm studying. Thanks again, Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2008,09:59)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2008,17:31) Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2008,09:27) I wonder how either of those ideas emptied themselves before Christ was conceived. Hi Kathi, Where does scripture teach us that Christ emptied himself prior to being born? I had thought that Philippians said he found himself in the likeness of man and then he humbled himself……  No? Hi Mandy, Does it matter since the scripture that says it is in a book you have chosen to disregard anyway and is covered in dust?  Well, I'll take a chance that it still matters to you or at least to others that may be reading this.  I do not mean to offend you Mandy, but isn't that where your Bible is.  You've said that it needs dusting off yourself. Phil 2:7-8 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. NASU

No need to get nasty, Kathi.

If you have read my up-to-date posts you would be aware that indeed my bible is dusted off and I am again pondering what I learn from other's here.

I understand you have a theory that you are teaching here. I can appreciate that. But I am still sorting out what it is exactly that I believe. I little grace and patience extended my way would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mandy

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 07 2008,06:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2008,09:59) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2008,17:31) Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2008,09:27) I wonder how either of those ideas emptied themselves before Christ was conceived. Hi Kathi, Where does scripture teach us that Christ emptied himself prior to being born? I had thought that Philippians said he found himself in the likeness of man and then he humbled himself……  No? Hi Mandy, Does it matter since the scripture that says it is in a book you have chosen to disregard anyway and is covered in dust?  Well, I'll take a chance that it still matters to you or at least to others that may be reading this.  I do not mean to offend you Mandy, but isn't that where your Bible is.  You've said that it needs dusting off yourself. Phil 2:7-8 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. NASU No need to get nasty, Kathi. If you have read my up-to-date posts you would be aware that indeed my bible is dusted off and I am again pondering what I learn from other's here. I understand you have a theory that you are teaching here.  I can appreciate that.  But I am still sorting out what it is exactly that I believe.  I little grace and patience extended my way would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mandy

Mandy! Knowing Kathi, I do not think that She meant it as being nasty. Like I said before sometimes we have to take a stand on what we believe in, and think that it is the truth. I am sure maybe I sound like that too, In fact dirty though that I wa mad at Him too. I am not. It is so hard at times to write what we really mean. So please sheer up. We and I love you.
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Mandy,
Sorry, just a little frustrated showing people verses and then it doesn't matter anyway, not just you. I LOVE YOU MANDY!! Is that better:) I think you are great!! I'm glad your doing your dusting.
Kathi

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,18:26)

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2008,23:23) Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,14:07) Hi 94, Nice post my brother, any single scripture can not deviate from the overall concepts on God and Jesus it should have an internal witness. As I was mentioning no where the word “begotten God” was confirmed by either Jesus or Apostles but the the words “son of God or begotten son” are confirmed. Please take care Adam Hi Brother: Thanks for the encouragement.  Someone is trying to confuse me, but I am not confused about what I believe.  God has revealed to the church that is Jesus is His Only Begotten Son and His Christ in Matthew 16.  Jesus said to the Apostle Peter, “Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but my Father who is in heaven”.  This is what our Heavenly Father has said to us and I have a witness by His Spirit dwelling within me that this is the truth.  There is no need to try to find some other hidden truth. God Bless 94, God has revealed to the church that the Son is God and has a God. Heb 1:8-9 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” NASU There are internal witnesses but you can't see them for some reason 94 and you are certainly not alone.  I am sorry for that but only God can open the eyes.

Hi Lightenup:

Jesus was born a man child just as we were the difference being that he was not born of the sperm of man but was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  He was not born with a devine nature, and therefore, he is not a begotten God.  I have stated what the scripture states and that is that he is a man.  No, not just any man, he is the Son of the Living God, but nevertheless a man.  And so, this not my theory.  It is what the Word of God states.

He is God in that he is the express image of God's person, and we have seen the Father through the works that Jesus did in obedience to Him.  The person is defined by what he does.

God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the culmination of what God intended His children to be.  The last Adam.

Quote

Hbr 5:7  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hbr 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

When were these verses spoken to Jesus?

Quote

Hbr 1:8  But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hbr 1:9  Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Hbr 1:10  And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Hbr 1:11  They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; Hbr 1:12  And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Hbr 1:13  But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

It is quite clear to me that He, God, called Jesus God when he exalted him to his position as head of the church.  And so, in what sense is Jesus God?

Quote

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

As for pre-existence, as brother Isaiah said, he pre-existed as the logosand that much is true.  You say that this could not be a plan as I have stated because of the way the Greek reads in John 1:1, but God's plan was to make man in His own image, and Jesus is the express image of His person at least that is my understanding.  Do you understand this differently?

 The Word of God (the spirit of the Son) was with God in the beginning.  Abel obeyed the God.  Enoch obeyed God.  Noah obeyed God.  Abraham obeyed God. But all these and the others who obeyed this same spirit made mistakes in their walk with the God, and we know that Jesus did not make any mistakes but obeyed God without sin even unto death of the cross, and he is the propitiation for the sins of all of those who have obeyed or will obey God.

Quote

1Cr 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1Cr 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Cr 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1Cr 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And so, the way that I have to understand this is that the Spirit of the Son was with God was with God in the beginning.  He created everything with him in mind.  He is God's heir and we, those who obeyed God prior to his advent on earth, and those who have obeyed him from the time of his advent on earth until he comes for the church, are joint heirs with him.  The spirit of the son and the Son is formed within man as he learns to apply the Word of God in his daily life in this world.  Since this is true, then Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person.

“1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.”

To be sure, there is symbolism between God speaking saying, “let there be light” when there was darkness in Genesis and His bringing the “light of the world” to us.  But Jesus was not that light that was spoken into existence.

Quote

Jhn 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Jhn 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

But as you can see it is the life that is in him that is the light of men.

Quote

Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

God Bless

[Proclaimer]

Scripture will always have the last word in the hearts of those who love truth.
If scriptures fall off the back of a truck due to a doctrine, then the doctrine is really just a theory of man.
Also if we start with a doctrine and make scripture fit into it, then there will always be difficult scriptures that cannot fit.
It is better and more honorable to start with scripture and understand what they are saying and then the big picture will start to come into focus.

Those who say that Jesus came into existence for the first time as a man have at least the following scriptures that cannot fit in their doctrine.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Who in their right mind would ignore these scriptures for the sake of a doctrine?

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ June 07 2008,13:49)

Scripture will always have the last word in the hearts of those who love truth. If scriptures fall off the back of a truck due to a doctrine, then the doctrine is really just a theory of man. Also if we start with a doctrine and make scripture fit into it, then there will always be difficult scriptures that cannot fit. It is better and more honorable to start with scripture and understand what they are saying and then the big picture will start to come into focus. Those who say that Jesus came into existence for the first time as a man have at least the following scriptures that cannot fit in their doctrine. Acts 3:15 (English-NIV) You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. Colossians 1:15-17 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. 1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Who in their right mind would ignore these scriptures for the sake of a doctrine?

Hi t8:

I already have given you my understanding of all of these scriptures. I know that Jesus exists now, and that is what is important from my perspective.

[Author]

Posts