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DK……..the great (apostasy) is the trinitarian theology , it was prophesied to come and came full blown at the council of Necia in 325 AD. Or due you think it's going to come 2000 years after it was prophesied. It's been here for the last 1700 years, Just look at the trinitarian past would tell you that they murdered over 20 million people in the name of their trinitarian religion, come on wake up. Read up on it, look at all the history that proves it.
Peace to you…………..gene
Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:01) WJ,
So you say there is no eternal “Son”, then it stands to reason that there is also no eternal “Father”. You then have your own idea of a trinity. I may be wrong but I was taught that the first person of the trinity was the Father, the second person of the trinity was the Son, and the third person of the trinity was the Holy Spirit and they are co-eternal.
LUAnd when were these things revealed to us?
When did the Father become the Father of Yeshua?
When did the Hebrews in the the Tanakh or Torah refer to YHWH as Father?
Your logic also betrays you here.
For if you say that Yeshua was born or had a beginning way back then.
Then was the Father a Father before he spoke Yeshua into being, which I believe is your view?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,12:30) Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:01) WJ,
So you say there is no eternal “Son”, then it stands to reason that there is also no eternal “Father”. You then have your own idea of a trinity. I may be wrong but I was taught that the first person of the trinity was the Father, the second person of the trinity was the Son, and the third person of the trinity was the Holy Spirit and they are co-eternal.
LUAnd when were these things revealed to us?
When did the Father become the Father of Yeshua?
When did the Hebrews in the the Tanakh or Torah refer to YHWH as Father?
Your logic also betrays you here.
For if you say that Yeshua was born or had a beginning way back then.
Then was the Father a Father before he spoke Yeshua into being, which I believe is your view?
I am not the trinitarian here. I never said that the Son was eternal or that the Father was eternal. I have stated that it was the Most High God that was eternal. It is the trinity doctrine that claims the Father and Son and Holy Spirit as co-eternal. Yet you claim that the Son is not eternal and thus the Father can't be either.You claim to be the trinitarian here yet you deny the eternal nature of the Son and therefore the eternal nature of the Father. I pointed out that the Most High God became a Father and not by speaking the Son into existence either but by birthing the Son into existence and then announcing Him.
With all due respect,
It is not my logic that is betraying me but yours dear one and thank you for admitting that.
LUQuote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,12:30) Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:01) WJ,
So you say there is no eternal “Son”, then it stands to reason that there is also no eternal “Father”. You then have your own idea of a trinity. I may be wrong but I was taught that the first person of the trinity was the Father, the second person of the trinity was the Son, and the third person of the trinity was the Holy Spirit and they are co-eternal.
LUAnd when were these things revealed to us?
When did the Father become the Father of Yeshua?
When did the Hebrews in the the Tanakh or Torah refer to YHWH as Father?
Your logic also betrays you here.
For if you say that Yeshua was born or had a beginning way back then.
Then was the Father a Father before he spoke Yeshua into being, which I believe is your view?
I am not the trinitarian here. I never said that the Son was eternal or that the Father was eternal. I have stated that it was the Most High God that was eternal. It is the trinity doctrine that claims the Father and Son and Holy Spirit as co-eternal. Yet you claim that the Son is not eternal and thus the Father can't be either.You claim to be the trinitarian here yet you deny the eternal nature of the Son and therefore the eternal nature of the Father. I pointed out that the Most High God became a Father and not by speaking the Son into existence either but by birthing the Son into existence and then announcing Him.
With all due respect,
It is not my logic that is betraying me but yours dear one and thank you for admitting that.
LU
LUThere you go.
Misrepresent me as all the rest.
If I claim that Yeshua is One God with the Father as John 1:1 and other scriptures claim.
Then how can I be saying that Yeshua before his incarnation is not eternal.
You are simply putting words in my mouth.
Yeshua was not declared a Son until he came in the flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Phil 2.
He was in the form of God before his incarnation just as the Father was and is in the form of God now.
The words you speak are a missrepresentation of my view and is false witness to what I have said.
Respectfully!
You say…
Quote
I pointed out that the Most High God became a Father and not by speaking the Son into existence either but by birthing the Son into existence and then announcing Him.Yet you have said that when the Father said “Let there be light” that Yeshua became that light.
Have I missrepresented you here?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,11:46) WJ, So that would be no verses that actually use the word “unique”.
You seem to like this translation so I will ask you a question using it also.
ESV
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Footnote:
a Greek in the bosom of the Father
b Or the only One, who is God; some manuscripts the only Son
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway BiblesIf Jesus is “the only God, who is at the Father's side,” then the Holy Spirit is not also God at the Father's side.
This post and my last post to you are pointing out problems with your understanding if there truly is a triune God. You are contradicting your own doctrine.
LU[/quote]
LUI see no contradiction.
There is no disparity in the Godhead. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God.
With your logic you are simply confused.
Is Yeshua in the Father? Is the Father in Yeshua? Then how can they be in each other at the same time.
How can they be in each other and be beside each other?
Tell me LU, how many spirits did you drink or was baptised into?
Does the Father live in you, or the Son or the Holy Spirit?
If you answer these questions then you will know the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for they are ONE, not the same in person, but One God.
The Henotheistic view has many flaws, for they claim Yeshua preexisted as “a god” much like the Jws. But scriptures are clear only YHWH created all thinngs “By himself”, with none other.
WJ,Quote Is Yeshua in the Father? Is the Father in Yeshua? Then how can they be in each other at the same time. How can they be in each other and be beside each other?
Yeshua can be in the Father and so can we and the Father can also be in us as well as Yeshua. How can we all be in each other at the same time? We are not collectivey one God are we. Yet you say that they are one God. But we are also in Him and He is in us but your logic is inconsistent because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the believers are not considered one God.
If you want to know how the Father can be in the Son and also beside the Son at the same time without them being the one God then it would be similar to how we can be in them and they in us at the same time and we are not one God.
I think that the Father's love and purpose and words can be in us and in His Son. Also the Father's spirit can be in us and in His Son. The spirit of the Son can also be in us crying “Abba Father”.
How can we be in the Father? He is our God, our protector, our shield, our covering. The Son is also those things. The Son is in His Father by being in subjection to His Father.
1 Cor 15:27-28
27 ForHE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, ” All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
NASULU
Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,11:46) WJ, So that would be no verses that actually use the word “unique”.
You seem to like this translation so I will ask you a question using it also.
ESV
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Footnote:
a Greek in the bosom of the Father
b Or the only One, who is God; some manuscripts the only Son
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway BiblesIf Jesus is “the only God, who is at the Father's side,” then the Holy Spirit is not also God at the Father's side.
This post and my last post to you are pointing out problems with your understanding if there truly is a triune God. You are contradicting your own doctrine.
LU
LUI see no contradiction.
There is no disparity in the Godhead. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God.
With your logic you are simply confused.
Is Yeshua in the Father? Is the Father in Yeshua? Then how can they be in each other at the same time.
How can they be in each other and be beside each other?
Tell me LU, how many spirits did you drink or was baptised into?
Does the Father live in you, or the Son or the Holy Spirit?
If you answer these questions then you will know the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for they are ONE, not the same in person, but One God.
The Henotheistic view has many flaws, for they claim Yeshua preexisted as “a god” much like the Jws. But scriptures are clear only YHWH created all thinngs “By himself”, with none other.
[/quote]
WJ,Quote Is Yeshua in the Father? Is the Father in Yeshua? Then how can they be in each other at the same time. How can they be in each other and be beside each other?
Yeshua can be in the Father and so can we and the Father can also be in us as well as Yeshua. How can we all be in each other at the same time? We are not collectivey one God are we. Yet you say that they are one God. But we are also in Him and He is in us but your logic is inconsistent because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the believers are not considered one God.
If you want to know how the Father can be in the Son and also beside the Son at the same time without them being the one God then it would be similar to how we can be in them and they in us at the same time and we are not one God.
I think that the Father's love and purpose and words can be in us and in His Son. Also the Father's spirit can be in us and in His Son. The spirit of the Son can also be in us crying “Abba Father”.
How can we be in the Father? He is our God, our protector, our shield, our covering. The Son is also those things. The Son is in His Father by being in subjection to His Father.
1 Cor 15:27-28
27 ForHE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, ” All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
NASULU
LUQuote
Yeshua can be in the Father and so can we and the Father can also be in us as well as Yeshua. How can we all be in each other at the same time? We are not collectivey one God are we. Yet you say that they are one God. But we are also in Him and He is in us but your logic is inconsistent because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the believers are not considered one God.You didnt answer the questions?
How many Spirits live in you? Yeshua is omnipresent, living in the heart of every believer by his Spirit.
Dont you see the difference?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,12:55) Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2008,12:30) Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:01) WJ,
So you say there is no eternal “Son”, then it stands to reason that there is also no eternal “Father”. You then have your own idea of a trinity. I may be wrong but I was taught that the first person of the trinity was the Father, the second person of the trinity was the Son, and the third person of the trinity was the Holy Spirit and they are co-eternal.
LUAnd when were these things revealed to us?
When did the Father become the Father of Yeshua?
When did the Hebrews in the the Tanakh or Torah refer to YHWH as Father?
Your logic also betrays you here.
For if you say that Yeshua was born or had a beginning way back then.
Then was the Father a Father before he spoke Yeshua into being, which I believe is your view?
I am not the trinitarian here. I never said that the Son was eternal or that the Father was eternal. I have stated that it was the Most High God that was eternal. It is the trinity doctrine that claims the Father and Son and Holy Spirit as co-eternal. Yet you claim that the Son is not eternal and thus the Father can't be either.You claim to be the trinitarian here yet you deny the eternal nature of the Son and therefore the eternal nature of the Father. I pointed out that the Most High God became a Father and not by speaking the Son into existence either but by birthing the Son into existence and then announcing Him.
With all due respect,
It is not my logic that is betraying me but yours dear one and thank you for admitting that.
LU
LUThere you go.
Misrepresent me as all the rest.
If I claim that Yeshua is One God with the Father as John 1:1 and other scriptures claim.
Then how can I be saying that Yeshua before his incarnation is not eternal.
You are simply putting words in my mouth.
Yeshua was not declared a Son until he came in the flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Phil 2.
He was in the form of God before his incarnation just as the Father was and is in the form of God now.
The words you speak are a missrepresentation of my view and is false witness to what I have said.
Respectfully!
You say…
Quote
I pointed out that the Most High God became a Father and not by speaking the Son into existence either but by birthing the Son into existence and then announcing Him.Yet you have said that when the Father said “Let there be light” that Yeshua became that light.
Have I missrepresented you here?
WJ,
Sorry if I misrepresented you but you do not believe that the Son was eternal as a Son but the trinity doctrine teaches an eternal Son. So I do not think that you accept the trinity doctrine. Are you saying that the first person of the trinity was the Father-to-be, the second person of the trinity was the Son-to-be and the third person of the trinity was the Holy Spirit and they are co-eternal? That is not what the trinity doctrine says.About you misrepresenting me,
I do not believe that the Son of God was merely spoken into existence. I think that He came from the Most High God in an asexual reproduction birth and that He was born on day one and announced as the Light.
LU
Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,02:53) Hi DK
Yes I can quote many verses like these
1) 1 Pet 1:20 “Jesus was predestained before the foundations of the world”
2) Gal 4:4 “when fullness of time came …Jesus was born through a woman”
3) Rom 1:3-4 “born of a descendant of David…declared the son of God ..by the resurrection from the dead”
4) Heb 1:1-2 ” …in these last days He spoke to us in His son”
5) Eph 1:4-5 “… He chose us in him(christ) before the foundations of the world”
6) Jn 17:5 “..glorify me ..with the glory which I had before the foundations of the world”
7) Jn 17:24 ” ..for thou didst love me before the foundations of the world”
8) 2 Sam 7:12-16 ” …I will be a father to him and he will be son to me”
9) Ps 2:7 ” Today I have begotten thee..”
10) Isa 11:1-5 ” a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse”
Like this I can quote many scriptures that prove that there is no pre-existence of Jesus whatsoever except he was foreordained in the plan of God to take birth through a woman when the fullness of time comes according to Paul in Gal 4:4. I know you may interpret some of these scripture towards your pre-existence, then I leave to your dogma. The glory Jesus was mentioning in Jn 17:5 was pre-ordained glory for Jesus on his successful completion of God's will in his life not the pre-existing glory as you believe. Jesus was raisen to the level of this glory only after he rose from the dead not that he was already sitting with the father before his birth. Where do you find such verses to support that dogma?
Hope you will study these scripture in details and submit your anology.
Adam
Adam,
Good work and I agree.
Love, MandyQuote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,04:44) I pointed out that the Most High God became a Father and not by speaking the Son into existence either but by birthing the Son into existence
The reason this theory causes confusion is because it is nonesense to humans. You cannot give birth to something by yourself. That is something we cannot understand.Gene says, “And the beat goes on.”
And I would say, the spin continues to spin…..
Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:09) I think that He came from the Most High God in an asexual reproduction birth and that He was born on day one and announced as the Light.
Unique theology.Brother Adam, I do not need to focus on Kathi's dogma. I think I get her. She feels she has had a revelation from God regarding some passages in Genesis and that when “light” was called out, this was the Son being born.
OK. I can see that. Just as I see my theory and other's. It's different, I'll grant you that. But I can still see it. And hey, if God has shown her this who are we to tell her it's not so?
WJ,
I believe this is what you want me to address:You say:
Tell me LU, how many spirits did you drink or was baptised into?Does the Father live in you, or the Son or the Holy Spirit?
I do not know what you mean when you ask how many spirits did I drink?I was baptized in the baptism of water to acknowledge the forgiveness of sins and to follow Christ and the Holy Spirit resides in me which is the spirit of the Father. I have been given the spirit of the Son.
Gal 4:6-7
God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ” Abba! Father!”
NASUI do not think that the Son is omnipresent although His spirit is put into the heart of all God's children. I do believe that the Holy Spirit is able to be present wherever He wants to be. If anything can actually be omnipresent the Holy Spirit would be it. Like, I would have trouble with the idea that the Holy Spirit is in my air conditioner or in my oven. If the Son is omnipresent then why would the Father have to put the spirit of the son in my heart. If He was omnipresent, His spirit would already be there.
Kathi,
Quote I do believe that the Holy Spirit is able to be present wherever He wants to be
ANDQuote I do not think that the Son is omnipresent although His spirit is put into the heart of all God's children. Question: do you believe that the “Holy Spirit” and the spirit of the Son are two different spirits?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,13:28) Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:09) I think that He came from the Most High God in an asexual reproduction birth and that He was born on day one and announced as the Light.
Unique theology.Brother Adam, I do not need to focus on Kathi's dogma. I think I get her. She feels she has had a revelation from God regarding some passages in Genesis and that when “light” was called out, this was the Son being born.
OK. I can see that. Just as I see my theory and other's. It's different, I'll grant you that. But I can still see it. And hey, if God has shown her this who are we to tell her it's not so?
Thanks Mandy!The revelation that I received was that the term “firstborn of all creation” related to “let there be Light”.
Have a great day,
Love, LUQuote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,13:40) Kathi, Quote I do believe that the Holy Spirit is able to be present wherever He wants to be
ANDQuote I do not think that the Son is omnipresent although His spirit is put into the heart of all God's children. Question: do you believe that the “Holy Spirit” and the spirit of the Son are two different spirits?
Hi Mandy,
Wow instant messaging, cool.
Yes, I believe that they are two distinct spirits.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,13:40) Kathi, Quote I do believe that the Holy Spirit is able to be present wherever He wants to be
ANDQuote I do not think that the Son is omnipresent although His spirit is put into the heart of all God's children. Question: do you believe that the “Holy Spirit” and the spirit of the Son are two different spirits?
Hi Mandy,
Wow instant messaging, cool.
Yes, I believe that they are two distinct spirits.
Kathi
So as believer's which spirit are we given? The Holy Spirit or the spirit of Christ?
Thanks
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