Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Jn 10
” 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. “

So the commandment to Jesus from God was that he was to die. He knew he was going to die and accepted that fate. He obeyed God allowed the will of God to occur though he could have opposed God. He also knew by faith that after he was raised he could take up his life all over again. It did not mean he would raise himself.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,15:37)

Hi not3, Those who accept trinity cannot align this God with the OT. They must say the God of the NT supercedes the revelation of God in the OT. They must actually reject the OT in favour of the NT yet a good storeman uses both. They say they see glimpses of their god in the OT but can never find anything written about such a being. As you show this god is a new and strange unbiblical god. We should abhor such teaching about new gods. WE have a true God. His son told us.

Those who are Henotheist, basically Polytheist, daibolically appose the Monotheistic teachings of the OT scriptures.

Their doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”, that they call “a son of God” before he was ever born a son!

They deny the Hebrew scriptures. Look!

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

How do they explain this?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,16:08)

Hi W, Jn 10 ” 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. “ So the commandment to Jesus from God was that he was to die. He knew he was going to die and accepted that fate. He obeyed God allowed the will of God to occur though he could have opposed God. He also knew by faith that after he was raised he could take up his life all over again. It did not mean he would raise himself.

NH

You say…

Quote

It did not mean he would raise himself.

Really? Then what did he mean here…

Jn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *I* will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

When are you like the disciples gonna believe the scriptures NH?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:27)

Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father.  Remember that Jesus can do nothing of himself!  Nothing!  Jesus even gives this honor to God, the Father.  We should too!

Not3,
Hmmm….if you think about what you have writen here….that would infer that Jesus had less power than regular men. Men, after all, have the ability to do things that are not empowered (for want of a better term) by God's spirit – like sin. If what you're saying is true then Jesus really was a only a shell, with God's spirit inside. Consider this verse:

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Is Jesus saying here that he is utterly incapably of doing anything without the assistance of God? I don't think so. The phrase “the Son can do nothing of Himself”, to me, appears to be a tacit claim of equality with The Father, not a denial of it. He is, in effect, saying that it's impossible for Him to do anything but what God [the Father] does! This is not something normal men could legitimately claim is it?, we are certainly capable of doing things that are contrary to what the Father would do. Just in case this point escaped the Pharisees Jesus went on to say that He does whatever the Father does (v19-20), and that all men will ascribe to Him honour at the judgement that is exactly the same as the honour given to the Father. And furthermore, he who does not honour Jesus in that manner, does not honor the Father who sent Him (v23). This is hardly the way a self effacing, impassive, powerless, puppet on a string speaking….

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 28 2007,16:28)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:27) Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father.  Remember that Jesus can do nothing of himself!  Nothing!  Jesus even gives this honor to God, the Father.  We should too! Not3, Hmmm….if you think about what you have writen here….that would infer that Jesus has less power than regular men. Men, after all, have the power to do things that are not empowered (for want of a better term) by God's spirit – like sin. If what you're saying is true then Jesus really was a only a shell, with God's spirit inside. Consider this verse: John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. Is Jesus saying here that he is utterly incapably of doing anything without the assistance of God? I don't think so. The phrase “the Son can do nothing of Himself”, to me, appears to be a tacit claim of equality with The Father, not a denial of it. He is, in effect, saying that it's impossible for Him to do anything but what God [the Father] does! This is not something normal men could legitimately claim is it?, we are certainly capable of doing things that are contrary to what the Father would do. Just in case this point escaped the Pharisees Jesus went on to say that He does whatever the Father does (v19-20), and that all men will ascribe to Him honour at the judgement that is in exactly the same manner as they honour the Father. And furthermore, he who does not does not, does not honor the Father who sent Him (v23). This is hardly the way a self effacing, impassive, puppet on a string speaking….

Amen!

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,16:15)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,15:37) Hi not3, Those who accept trinity cannot align this God with the OT. They must say the God of the NT supercedes the revelation of God in the OT. They must actually reject the OT in favour of the NT yet a good storeman uses both. They say they see glimpses of their god in the OT but can never find anything written about such a being. As you show this god is a new and strange unbiblical god. We should abhor such teaching about new gods. WE have a true God. His son told us. Those who are Henotheist, basically Polytheist, daibolically appose the Monotheistic teachings of the OT scriptures. Their doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”, that they call “a son of God” before he was ever born a son! They deny the Hebrew scriptures. Look! Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*. Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*, How do they explain this?

Hi W,
You boast of your logic but then present this claim of one God having recently told us of two or even three deities. What gives?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,16:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,16:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,15:37) Hi not3, Those who accept trinity cannot align this God with the OT. They must say the God of the NT supercedes the revelation of God in the OT. They must actually reject the OT in favour of the NT yet a good storeman uses both. They say they see glimpses of their god in the OT but can never find anything written about such a being. As you show this god is a new and strange unbiblical god. We should abhor such teaching about new gods. WE have a true God. His son told us. Those who are Henotheist, basically Polytheist, daibolically appose the Monotheistic teachings of the OT scriptures. Their doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”, that they call “a son of God” before he was ever born a son! They deny the Hebrew scriptures. Look! Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*. Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*, How do they explain this? Hi W, You boast of your logic but then present this claim of one God having recently told us of two or even three deities. What gives?

NH

Not so! When have you heard me claim three deitys?

One God, Three persons, One Spirit!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:35)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:55) Scrpiture say that “all things” came by/through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16), therefore it's quite natural to assume that He is uncreated. Isaiah, You are a good teacher.  Tell me why I cannot believe that all things came through Jesus and that means *through the plan or will of Jesus*?  Why do we have to “assume” that he is uncreated?

Because the language used in the passages relating to Jesus as Creator are incompatible with Him being a plan. Do you remember discussing with me the Greek in John 1:1-4? Classic example. A plan cannot be said to have existed perpetually “in the beginning (v1a). A plan cannot be said to have had “pros” (intimitate communion) with God (v1b). A plan cannot be said to be (continuously in eternity past) “theos”, irregardless of whether the word means Godly or God (v1c). A plan cannot make anything, let alone “all things” (v3). A plan cannot be said to have “life (of any sort) in Him” (v4)…..

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:37)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,15:25) To me John 1:3, Col 1:16 and Heb 1:2 show that the prehuman Jesus was involved in Creation, But HOW was he involved?

He was the executer of the Creation (Heb 1:10)…

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:43)

Only this – there is One God – the Father – and one Lord – Jesus Christ.

So the Father is, in no sense, our Lord?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,16:01)

Not quite. Jesus in this incident didnt say that “The power” was committed to him. The power was already his. Jn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. This passage aligns beautifully with Phil. 2 and John 1:1,14 Jesus came down form heaven, leaving the glory he shared with the Father to take on the likeness of sinfull flesh. He came to “do the will” of the Father! Not3 can you name a being that had the power or could claim to raise himself from the dead?

Good points WJ.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,16:01)

Not3 can you name a being that had the power or could claim to raise himself from the dead?

Is this like that old game show, “Name that tune?”

Like I said, WJ, Jesus was “enabled” by his Father to do all that he did. Jesus had no problem letting us know that God was greater than himself and that God was the reason he was able to do what he did.

Jesus not only didn't have the *power* to do what he did, he said he wasn't even GOOD. Jesus said that of himself he could do NOTHING! I believe Jesus.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 28 2007,16:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,16:01) Not quite. Jesus in this incident didnt say that “The power” was committed to him. The power was already his. Jn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. This passage aligns beautifully with Phil. 2 and John 1:1,14 Jesus came down form heaven, leaving the glory he shared with the Father to take on the likeness of sinfull flesh. He came to “do the will” of the Father! Not3 can you name a being that had the power or could claim to raise himself from the dead? Good points WJ.

Of course, I disagree,

I don't think these are good points at all. I think they are assumptions.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 28 2007,16:51)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:43) Only this – there is One God – the Father – and one Lord – Jesus Christ. So the Father is, in no sense, our Lord?

My turn…….now you're being silly, Isaiah!

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,16:01)

You see the scriptures also claim that the Spirit of God raised Jesus.

The spirit of God IS God.

And yes, God raised Jesus.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,16:15)

How do they explain this?

I know you don't care – but WJ, your animated “knock out” and others that you plan to use……..well…….they do not encourag unity.

Take notes from your brother Isaiah on trying to keep the unity.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 28 2007,16:28)

Is Jesus saying here that he is utterly incapably of doing anything without the assistance of God? I don't think so. The phrase “the Son can do nothing of Himself”, to me, appears to be a tacit claim of equality with The Father, not a denial of it. He is, in effect, saying that it's impossible for Him to do anything but what God [the Father] does! This is not something normal men could legitimately claim is it?, we are certainly capable of doing things that are contrary to what the Father would do. Just in case this point escaped the Pharisees Jesus went on to say that He does whatever the Father does (v19-20), and that all men will ascribe to Him honour at the judgement that is exactly the same as the honour given to the Father. And furthermore, he who does not honour Jesus in that manner, does not honor the Father who sent Him (v23). This is hardly the way a self effacing, impassive, powerless, puppet on a string speaking….

The topic in question was that of Jesus being able to raise himself from the dead.

This he could not do of himself – the Father raised him from the dead. If he was able to do it, it was because the Father did it. So again, Jesus could not do it on his *own* which is, I guess, the point I was trying to make. Not that Jesus couldn't do and act on his own, but that he could not do anything miraculous, such as raise himself from the dead, unless God was in it. Hopefully this makes more sense.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 28 2007,16:28)

and that all men will ascribe to Him honour at the judgement that is exactly the same as the honour given to the Father. And furthermore, he who does not honour Jesus in that manner, does not honor the Father who sent Him (v23).

There will come a time, however, when Jesus will turn everything over to God so that *he* will be all in all.

Right?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 28 2007,16:41)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:35) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:55) Scrpiture say that “all things” came by/through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16), therefore it's quite natural to assume that He is uncreated. Isaiah, You are a good teacher.  Tell me why I cannot believe that all things came through Jesus and that means *through the plan or will of Jesus*?  Why do we have to “assume” that he is uncreated? Because the language used in the passages relating to Jesus as Creator are incompatible with Him being a plan. Do you remember discussing with me the Greek in John 1:1-4? Classic example. A plan cannot be said to have existed perpetually “in the beginning (v1a). A plan cannot be said to have had “pros” (intimitate communion) with God (v1b). A plan cannot be said to be (continuously in eternity past) “theos”, irregardless of whether the word means Godly or God (v1c). A plan cannot make anything, let alone “all things” (v3). A plan cannot be said to have “life (of any sort) in Him” (v4)…..

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Thank you for taking time to answer this though…. I'll give it some more thought.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,17:29)

he said he wasn't even GOOD.

Did he? Where?

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