Preexistence

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Jodi @ May 01 2008,07:39)

Mrs, If Proverbs is revealing to us that Wisdom is a preexistent Yeshua, then why is Wisdom referred to as being a SHE and not the Son of Yah? Proverbs 7:4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” and call insight your intimate friend, Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right; 9:1 Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn her seven pillars. 2 She has slaughtered her animals, she has mixed her wine, she has also set her table. 3 She has sent out her servant-girls, she calls from the highest places in the town, Like I said before this is reading to me like poetry where Yah's wisdom is being portrayed as a SHE. If Yah's wisdom was suppose to be a preexistent Son, I sure do not see any sign of such a thing here in Proverbs.

Very good points Jodi.

Tim

[Jodi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,13:12)

Boy, Jodi and Irene are giving this thread a good ride. Cool. I'll be back tonight and hopefully contribute something a little more meaningful. Too many distractions this afternoon. One thing I wanted to point out in regards to the word “firstborn”, is that to be “born” you must first be conceived. Jesus is a son. A son is a product of his parents. Was Mary also in heaven before she was born? Or do you believe that Mary was just a baby factory with nothing to contribute to Jesus. The preexistence thread and the conception thread go hand-in-hand as far as I am concerned.

Hi Mandy,

Luke 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Here we see a genealogy that links Adam as the son of God. So do you think that Adam is more God like then Yeshua, since he did not have a human mother, but came solely from Yah?

As you already know, I believe that the term father and son when related to humans and Yah, refers to Yah as being a Father in all senses, except in actually physical being, such as a protector, a teacher, a disciplinarian. Yeshua did indeed have the Spirit of his Father in him, but that is a matter of information in Yeshua's brain, not in the matter of Yeshua being part literally the same substance of Yah. Yah is said to be a consuming fire to holy for the unrighteous to look at. Man had no problems looking eye to eye with Yeshua.

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi……good posts, I see it that way also. I have tried to tell Mrs. that She is forcing and reading into the text what it doesn't specifically say, which is commonly done here. I think i do it sometimes my self, i try not . Mrs. no offense intended.

peace and love to you all…………..gene

[Ptr745]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are.

I have explained them over and over again, you simply don't seem to want to listen, including the verse where in the English it says the Glory Jesus had with God before the world was, it is simply twisted by translators to fit their doctrine. Read this in the greek, it says “give me the glory had before the world was with thee”, (and who had that glory, it was God the father) it doesn't say give me the glory I had with the before the world was.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

But let me ask you this, if Jesus would have been a mere man and did not have God's Holy Spirit full strength do you think He would not have sinned? He would have cause all man sin.

I never said he was a mere man, and that he never had God's Holy Spirit full strength. The scriptures plainly say he had God's spirit from the womb, without measure.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

He knew what was at stake and that is why He did not Sin. If Jesus would have failed, and He could have, we would all die. That is why God had to send His only begotten Son into the World, to save the World. No other sacrifice would have worked.

You seem to think I disagree with this, but I don't.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

And listen again to what it says. God so loved the world that He SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD…… Where did God send Him from?

God sent many prophets etc, did they all pre-exist?

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

Nobody can answer that question you just want to put that truth under the rug, but it does not work, there are to many scriptures.

Actually it's quite easy to answer. God sent his holy spirit down into Mary to impregnate her, and Jesus became the first born of God, just as it says.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

I have shown this over and over again and I do not understand why you all want to ignore this. This is not just my view it is the Bibles view.

All you have shown me over and over again are English verses twisted by the translators to fit their doctrine, I don't understand why you ignore all of this. And No, it is not your view, and it is not the view of the original scriptures, it is the view of those who translated it into English.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

P.S. I know already how some of you will respond in a negative way, but do yourself a favor and look at it like it is written, not like you want it to see. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way.  He created Heaven and earth…. How else can read that.

If you really want to look at it how it is written, look at in the original greek. All you are reading is the doctrine of the English translators, I really don't know how many time I have to say that.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Jodi @ May 01 2008,09:19)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,13:12) Boy, Jodi and Irene are giving this thread a good ride.  Cool. I'll be back tonight and hopefully contribute something a little more meaningful.  Too many distractions this afternoon. One thing I wanted to point out in regards to the word “firstborn”, is that to be “born” you must first be conceived.  Jesus is a son.  A son is a product of his parents.  Was Mary also in heaven before she was born?  Or do you believe that Mary was just a baby factory with nothing to contribute to Jesus.  The preexistence thread and the conception thread go hand-in-hand as far as I am concerned. Hi Mandy, Luke 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Here we see a genealogy that links Adam as the son of God. So do you think that Adam is more God like then Yeshua, since he did not have a human mother, but came solely from Yah? As you already know, I believe that the term father and son when related to humans and Yah, refers to Yah as being a Father in all senses, except in actually physical being, such as a protector, a teacher, a disciplinarian. Yeshua did indeed have the Spirit of his Father in him, but that is a matter of information in Yeshua's brain, not in the matter of Yeshua being part literally the same substance of Yah. Yah is said to be a consuming fire to holy for the unrighteous to look at. Man had no problems looking eye to eye with Yeshua.

Hi Jodi,

I've had a pretty rough day so I won't attempt to add much as I had intended.

But to address a point of yours, there is something to be said that Jesus is called the ONLY Son of God, while it is true there were obviously others from Adam on.

In what way do you think Jesus is God's ONLY Son?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Ptr745 @ April 30 2008,22:04)

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) 745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are. I have explained them over and over again, you simply don't seem to want to listen, including the verse where in the English it says the Glory Jesus had with God before the world was, it is simply twisted by translators to fit their doctrine. Read this in the greek, it says “give me the glory had before the world was with thee”, (and who had that glory, it was God the father) it doesn't say give me the glory I had with the before the world was. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) But let me ask you this, if Jesus would have been a mere man and did not have God's Holy Spirit full strength do you think He would not have sinned? He would have cause all man sin. I never said he was a mere man, and that he never had God's Holy Spirit full strength. The scriptures plainly say he had God's spirit from the womb, without measure. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) He knew what was at stake and that is why He did not Sin. If Jesus would have failed, and He could have, we would all die. That is why God had to send His only begotten Son into the World, to save the World. No other sacrifice would have worked. You seem to think I disagree with this, but I don't. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) And listen again to what it says. God so loved the world that He SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD…… Where did God send Him from? God sent many prophets etc, did they all pre-exist? Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) Nobody can answer that question you just want to put that truth under the rug, but it does not work, there are to many scriptures. Actually it's quite easy to answer. God sent his holy spirit down into Mary to impregnate her, and Jesus became the first born of God, just as it says. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) I have shown this over and over again and I do not understand why you all want to ignore this. This is not just my view it is the Bibles view. All you have shown me over and over again are English verses twisted by the translators to fit their doctrine, I don't understand why you ignore all of this. And No, it is not your view, and it is not the view of the original scriptures, it is the view of those who translated it into English. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) P.S. I know already how some of you will respond in a negative way, but do yourself a favor and look at it like it is written, not like you want it to see. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way.  He created Heaven and earth…. How else can read that. If you really want to look at it how it is written, look at in the original greek. All you are reading is the doctrine of the English translators, I really don't know how many time I have to say that.

Hello Ptr,

You wrote:

I have explained them over and over again, you simply don't seem to want to listen, including the verse where in the English it says the Glory Jesus had with God before the world was, it is simply twisted by translators to fit their doctrine. Read this in the greek, it says “give me the glory had before the world was with thee”, (and who had that glory, it was God the father) it doesn't say give me the glory I had with the before the world was.

I will respond:
Re: the term “I had” in John 17:5
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
NASU

The Greek root word for “I had” is “exw”, Strong's #2192 which can mean “to have”.

The Greek word in this verse is written as  “eixon” and is a form of “exw” and parsed as a verb, first person, imperfect, active, indicative, singular.  Let me try to explain with my limited Greek knowledge:

Verb-the action word-to have

First person-it refers to the person speaking (in this case-Christ)

Imperfect-The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action in the past. Where the present tense might indicate “they are asking,” the imperfect would indicate “they kept on asking.”

Active-the subject does the action as opposed to the subject receiving the action which would be “passive”.

Indicative-indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

Singular-not plural i.e. it is to be translated as “I had” as opposed to “we had”.

So, to sum up the above, the word “eixon” is correctly translated as “I had”.  Christ had the glory in an active way and in a continuos way in the past.

You can check this out yourself at studylight.org.  Follow these steps:
Put in “John 17:5” in the passage display box and look under the KJV with Strong's Numbers version.
Then, above the written out verse, click on “Greek Lexical Parser ” then scroll down till you get to “eixon”.  There you will find the Greek word as found in the original text, the parsing information, the Strong's number, and the Greek root word.

In the future this can be handy to check out Greek verbs.  When the Greek verbs are written, they have special endings and those endings tell us many things about the subject doing the action as you can see in the above.

If you have any questions, I am willing to try to answer them if I can.

Blessings!

[Ptr745]

hmm, then why is exion translated as “I had” 3 times, “had” three times, and “they had” 13 times?

Thankyou for peaking my interest in this verse, something stood out at me which seems to have similar meanings to Psalms 110:1 (something I had never noticed before)

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”

Now looking back at John 17:5 in the greek – “And now glorify Thou Me, you Father, beside Thyself, to-the glory which had before the world to-be beside Thee.”

Is this saying glorify me Father, up beside you, to the glory I will have beside you until the world to-be comes? Is this talking about Christ rising up to the right-hand of the Father until his return and his establishing of his kingdom? He did rise up to the right hand of God until this time, just as the prophecy in Psalms 110:1 says, which is also explained by Peter in acts 2. It seems to echo other verses as well…

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

[Lightenup]

Hello Ptr,
You wrote:
hmm, then why is exion translated as “I had” 3 times, “had” three times, and “they had” 13 times?

My response:
Would you please list the references where you say that exion is translated “had” and “they had”.
So I can look at what you are referring to.

I would like to get this verse straight among us before we get on a rabbit trail with other verses.
Thanks!

[Jodi]

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

This is an awesome scripture for it tells us that Yah knew what He was doing from the beginning. Yah's plan had glory for man from the beginning. We are not in the dark, Yah has not been stumbling around with our existence and our instruction.

This scripture is really quite simple, what glory are we told that Yeshua has? We know nothing of a preexistent Son, other then peoples claim that Yah gave him his word to give to the angels to give to the prophets to give to the people. Yeshua's glory was that he was an immortal go between messenger? I already established in a post that Proverbs clearly shows that Yah created the heavens and the earth with His wisdom beside him. What was this Wisdom beside Yah at the creation?

Proverbs 8:4 “To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. 5 You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. 6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. 7 My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. 8 All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse.

15 By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just; 16 by me princes govern, and all nobles who rule on earth. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. 18 With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than fine gold; what I yield surpasses choice silver.

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord.

Yeshua will be king through gaining the Wisdom that Yah established in the beginning for mankind to take hold of.

Lu 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

1Co 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Yeshua BECAME for us wisdom. We know from Porverbs how this was possible, it was through Yah taking His wisdom in the beginning and forming it into an influence that a created creature could grasp.

For those that believe in a preexistence, what glory did Yeshua have with Yah in the beginning? I have heard it said that Yeshua lost his position and became a man for us. This is not mentioned in the bible it is speculation. More importantly this is NOT the glory that Yeshua has that is clearly identified in the bible.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Mt 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Mt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

The glory of Yeshus is that as a MAN, not as a pre-existent Son.

It is a fact that Yeshua was a baby who grew in wisdom, so any knowledge of him preexisting would have had to been told to him. So clearly in John 17 he cannot be talking of his own PERSONAL remembrance of glory. Yeshua had to be TOLD of that glory, and what was that GLORY? Was the glory something that already existed in a preexistent Son, or is the glory something that was to come?

John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Luke 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

The glory is MAN entering into eternal life. The glory that Yeshua had with Yah in the beginning was Yah's knowledge that He would be able to succeed in making man righteous so man could receive eternal life.

John 17 does not tell us that Yeshua is returning to glory, but that that he is receiving glory for glorifying Yah to the people. Which we know was the plan from the very beginning.

The Old Testament tells us that the firstborn was TO COME. The Old Testament tells us that David's flesh WOULD BE God's Son. The Old Testament tells us that Yah created the Heavens and the Earth. The Old Testament tells us that Yah spoke to the prophets. We know that Yeshua of Nazareth was known in the mind of Yah from the beginning. We must use these facts to understand the scriptures in the New Testament, when we do so there is truly no evidence of a literal preexisting Son of God.

[Cato]

Has anyone considered that perhaps everyone, not just Jesus, may have pre-existed, and we essentially incarnate according to God's plan for our individual selves?  Is it any more difficult to believe that our spiritual essence was created at an earlier time then to say it is created at the moment of physical fertilization of an egg and sperm?

[Not3in1]

Cato,

I've comtemplated this a bit. However I think it would get too confusing for God to keep track of everyone in their first lives, second lives and so on. Why let the same soul continue to muck it up until he gets it right? I tend to think the bible is correct when it says that God will not contend with man forever. How boring could it get to recycle the same soul over and over again? Watching them commit the same errors they commited before? I don't know…. I like the idea of every human being having a fresh, new soul. You get one chance – do or die.

[Cato]

Ah but what a limited perspective we would all draw from one life, not to mention those souls who die as infants and children.  To experience the diversity of many lives in many situations, learning from what each has to offer that seems interesting to contemplate.  I think if God can keep the infinite stars in their course he could keep men's potential lives in order. Also we are making the assumption the creator is architect, builder, maintainer,etc., perhaps all of those angels or other beings of such capacity have some role in creation other then to sing praises, and send messages.  Something to think about, it would seem to be a better system if we were created to learn and grow into our place in creation rather then being subject to a one shot test of belief.

[Jodi]

Quote (Cato @ May 01 2008,14:23)

Ah but what a limited perspective we would all draw from one life, not to mention those souls who die as infants and children. To experience the diversity of many lives in many situations, learning from what each has to offer that seems interesting to contemplate. I think if God can keep the infinite stars in their course he could keep men's potential lives in order. Also we are making the assumption the creator is architect, builder, maintainer,etc., perhaps all of those angels or other beings of such capacity have some role in creation other then to sing praises, and send messages. Something to think about, it would seem to be a better system if we were created to learn and grow into our place in creation rather then being subject to a one shot test of belief.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised to hear if the angels helped Yah design the different animals or the plant life.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2008,19:34)

Quote (Ptr745 @ April 30 2008,22:04) Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) 745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are. I have explained them over and over again, you simply don't seem to want to listen, including the verse where in the English it says the Glory Jesus had with God before the world was, it is simply twisted by translators to fit their doctrine. Read this in the greek, it says “give me the glory had before the world was with thee”, (and who had that glory, it was God the father) it doesn't say give me the glory I had with the before the world was. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) But let me ask you this, if Jesus would have been a mere man and did not have God's Holy Spirit full strength do you think He would not have sinned? He would have cause all man sin. I never said he was a mere man, and that he never had God's Holy Spirit full strength. The scriptures plainly say he had God's spirit from the womb, without measure. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) He knew what was at stake and that is why He did not Sin. If Jesus would have failed, and He could have, we would all die. That is why God had to send His only begotten Son into the World, to save the World. No other sacrifice would have worked. You seem to think I disagree with this, but I don't. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) And listen again to what it says. God so loved the world that He SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD…… Where did God send Him from? God sent many prophets etc, did they all pre-exist? Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) Nobody can answer that question you just want to put that truth under the rug, but it does not work, there are to many scriptures. Actually it's quite easy to answer. God sent his holy spirit down into Mary to impregnate her, and Jesus became the first born of God, just as it says. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) I have shown this over and over again and I do not understand why you all want to ignore this. This is not just my view it is the Bibles view. All you have shown me over and over again are English verses twisted by the translators to fit their doctrine, I don't understand why you ignore all of this. And No, it is not your view, and it is not the view of the original scriptures, it is the view of those who translated it into English. Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15) P.S. I know already how some of you will respond in a negative way, but do yourself a favor and look at it like it is written, not like you want it to see. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way.  He created Heaven and earth…. How else can read that. If you really want to look at it how it is written, look at in the original greek. All you are reading is the doctrine of the English translators, I really don't know how many time I have to say that. Hello Ptr, You wrote: I have explained them over and over again, you simply don't seem to want to listen, including the verse where in the English it says the Glory Jesus had with God before the world was, it is simply twisted by translators to fit their doctrine. Read this in the greek, it says “give me the glory had before the world was with thee”, (and who had that glory, it was God the father) it doesn't say give me the glory I had with the before the world was. I will respond: Re: the term “I had” in John 17:5 5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. NASU The Greek root word for “I had” is “exw”, Strong's #2192 which can mean “to have”. The Greek word in this verse is written as  “eixon” and is a form of “exw” and parsed as a verb, first person, imperfect, active, indicative, singular.  Let me try to explain with my limited Greek knowledge: Verb-the action word-to have First person-it refers to the person speaking (in this case-Christ) Imperfect-The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action in the past. Where the present tense might indicate “they are asking,” the imperfect would indicate “they kept on asking.” Active-the subject does the action as opposed to the subject receiving the action which would be “passive”. Indicative-indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. Singular-not plural i.e. it is to be translated as “I had” as opposed to “we had”. So, to sum up the above, the word “eixon” is correctly translated as “I had”.  Christ had the glory in an active way and in a continuos way in the past. You can check this out yourself at studylight.org.  Follow these steps: Put in “John 17:5” in the passage display box and look under the KJV with Strong's Numbers version. Then, above the written out verse, click on “Greek Lexical Parser ” then scroll down till you get to “eixon”.  There you will find the Greek word as found in the original text, the parsing information, the Strong's number, and the Greek root word. In the future this can be handy to check out Greek verbs.  When the Greek verbs are written, they have special endings and those endings tell us many things about the subject doing the action as you can see in the above. If you have any questions, I am willing to try to answer them if I can. Blessings!

Lightenup

You are exactly right!

This is the reason why the many translations found on Biblegateway.com and Blueletterbible.org have very little differences in the translations.

The Greek and Hebrew scholars knew a whole lot more than we do.

John 17:5 is plain english and is meant to be taken as such.

It amazes me how so many appologist who know nothing about, or very little Hebrew and Greek claim to know better than the Translators.

When yoiu mention this, the typical response is the tanslators were biased.

How weak!

IMHO  

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Jodi @ May 02 2008,05:40)

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. This is an awesome scripture for it tells us that Yah knew what He was doing from the beginning. Yah's plan had glory for man from the beginning. We are not in the dark, Yah has not been stumbling around with our existence and our instruction. This scripture is really quite simple, what glory are we told that Yeshua has? We know nothing of a preexistent Son, other then peoples claim that Yah gave him his word to give to the angels to give to the prophets to give to the people. Yeshua's glory was that he was an immortal go between messenger? I already established in a post that Proverbs clearly shows that Yah created the heavens and the earth with His wisdom beside him. What was this Wisdom beside Yah at the creation? Proverbs 8:4 “To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. 5 You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. 6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. 7 My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. 8 All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. 15 By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just; 16 by me princes govern, and all nobles who rule on earth. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. 18 With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than fine gold; what I yield surpasses choice silver. 22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. Yeshua will be king through gaining the Wisdom that Yah established in the beginning for mankind to take hold of. Lu 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. 1Co 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Yeshua BECAME for us wisdom. We know from Porverbs how this was possible, it was through Yah taking His wisdom in the beginning and forming it into an influence that a created creature could grasp. For those that believe in a preexistence, what glory did Yeshua have with Yah in the beginning? I have heard it said that Yeshua lost his position and became a man for us. This is not mentioned in the bible it is speculation. More importantly this is NOT the glory that Yeshua has that is clearly identified in the bible. Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. Mt 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. Mt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. The glory of Yeshus is that as a MAN, not as a pre-existent Son. It is a fact that Yeshua was a baby who grew in wisdom, so any knowledge of him preexisting would have had to been told to him. So clearly in John 17 he cannot be talking of his own PERSONAL remembrance of glory. Yeshua had to be TOLD of that glory, and what was that GLORY? Was the glory something that already existed in a preexistent Son, or is the glory something that was to come? John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Luke 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”   The glory is MAN entering into eternal life. The glory that Yeshua had with Yah in the beginning was Yah's knowledge that He would be able to succeed in making man righteous so man could receive eternal life. John 17 does not tell us that Yeshua is returning to glory, but that that he is receiving glory for glorifying Yah to the people. Which we know was the plan from the very beginning. The Old Testament tells us that the firstborn was TO COME. The Old Testament tells us that David's flesh WOULD BE God's Son. The Old Testament tells us that Yah created the Heavens and the Earth. The Old Testament tells us that Yah spoke to the prophets. We know that Yeshua of Nazareth was known in the mind of Yah from the beginning. We must use these facts to understand the scriptures in the New Testament, when we do so there is truly no evidence of a literal preexisting Son of God.

Jodi…..you have it right, how can something so clear be so hard to understand. Jesus was a man who was born on earth who was (foreordaind) before the doundations od the world
(BUT) was manifsted in (OUR) time said Peter. Do people would have surely Known if Jesus had preexisted as a God or some other being before He came to earth. Forordained means He was in the plan of God. Scripture also say's God knows the end from the beginning. He knew in the beginning that He would cause a women to bare a Son, and said i Shall (future tense) be unto him a Father and He shalll (future tense) be unto me a Son, and that man would do what he had predestened Him to DO.

Jesus did not preexist before his berth on earth except in the plan and will of GOD. I agree with you Jodi.

gene

[Ptr745]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 02 2008,05:29)

Hello Ptr, You wrote: hmm, then why is exion translated as “I had” 3 times, “had” three times, and “they had” 13 times? My response: Would you please list the references where you say that exion is translated “had” and “they had”. So I can look at what you are referring to. I would like to get this verse straight among us before we get on a rabbit trail with other verses.   Thanks!

No problem.

EXION tranlsated as “They-had” or “they counted” , referring to somebody else “having”:

AV Mt 14:5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.

AV Mt 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

AV Mt 27:16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

AV Mk 8:7 And they had a few small fishes: and he blessed, and commanded to set them also before [them].

AV Mk 8:14 Now [the disciples] had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.

AV Ac 4:14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

AV Ac 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to [their] minister.

AV Ac 25:19 But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.

AV Hb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

AV Re 6:9 . And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

AV Re 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

AV Re 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

AV Mk 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all [men] counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

Tranlsated as “Had”:

AV Ac 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

AV Mk 3:10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.

AV Lk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Translated as “I-had”:

AV Lk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, [here is] thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

AV 3Jn 1:13 I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee:

AV Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

the above verse in the literal greek….

and now glorify-you me you Father! Beside yourself to-the glory which/who had/i-had/they-had before of-the the system/world to-be beside you

Anyone who thinks that is lock-stock proof that Jesus pre-existed might have to think twice. It could be saying in fewer words “give me the glory which you had before the world was with you” or “give me the glory you had predestined me before the world was” or, echoing Psalms 110:1, it could be saying “Glorify me up beside yourself until the world to-be comes”.

[seek and you will find]

745 And how do you explain Col. 1:15-18 and Rev.3:14 are you gaoing to explain that away too?
Peace and Love Mrs.

[gollamudi]

Amen brother Gene,
Jesus was a man like you and me. He didn't have any advantage in the flesh other than he was fathered by the only True God and he was given the Holy Spirit without any measure. Even today he is called as the son of man. 'The son of man will come in his father's glory'
God bless you all
Adam

[Ptr745]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 02 2008,18:03)

745 And how do you explain Col. 1:15-18 and Rev.3:14 are you gaoing to explain that away too? Peace and Love Mrs.

I don't have to, if you know what the prime objective is for what God is creating through and because of Jesus, namely the church, which in time will become his family and sons of God, you know what these verses are speaking of. Christ was the first born of the Father, and the first of this creation, the family of God. And if you think that Col. 1:16 is saying that everying is created BY Jesus, that is not exactly what it says in the greek. It does not say BY him, it says IN him. There are much more clear verses which describe exactly who did the creating, and it was Yahweh, the father and here are a few of them (remember LORD in captial letters is translated from Yahweh)…

AV Gn 2:4 . These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

AV Gn 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

AV Gn 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

AV Gn 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

AV Gn 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

What would rather believe, an obscure verse that is not really talking about what you think it is, or the plain clear cut verses above which say exactly who did the creating?

Anyway, I think this is becoming a rather pointless conversation. God bless.

[GeneBalthrop]

seek and you will find……if you translate the above verses ptr 745 gave from the original Hebrew translation according to Jeff Benner mechanical translation of Genesis they would read like this.

Gen 2:4…> these are the generations of the heavens and earth when they were created, in the day (HE exists with Powers) made the earth heavens,

Gen 2:7…> And (He exists with powers) molded man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the wind of life, and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:9…> And out of the ground made (He Exists with powers) to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of Knowledge of good (AND) Evil.

Gen 2:19 .> And out of the ground (He Exists with powers) formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air: and brought Them into Adam to see what he would call them; and what so ever Adam called every living creature, that was the mane thereof.

Gen 2:22.> And the rib, which the (He Exist with Powers) had taken from, man He made a woman, and brought her unto the man.

The word LORD < is (He Exists) The word GOD < (is Powers) another words (HE Exist with Powers), that's the way the original Hebrews would have perceived it.

This is not even mentioning all the scriptures in Isaiah that clearly show that the Lord God did all the creating by His self, he plainly said that and that there is none other God except Him . So Jesus was right he said (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD.

The whole concept of the trinity and preexistence is false teachings created by false Christanity.

IMO……..gene

[Author]

Posts