Preexistence

[seek and you will find]

Gen. What does that have to do with the preexsisting of Jesus? Jesus created all, by the power of God the Father. God is the Almighty God. There is no argument with that. But did Jesus preexsited His Birth by Maria? That has to be proven. And it can.
John 1:1  “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Why is this verse so confusing to so many people? The Apostle John is not the only one that referred to the Son of God as the “Word” of the O.T., “Logos” in Greek.
Hear are Jesus own words.
Rev. 19:13  “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.”
John knew that Jesus was the “Spokesman” for God, the “Word”, because of what he had told them.
John 5:37  “And the Father himself, which has sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
Jesus was the Word, the Spokesperson for the Father, hear on earth. For anyone to think that the “Word” was just a thought in the father’s mind, and became the “Word” when he spoke it, is just plain ridiculous. It would than have to be understood as though God spoke his thought into Mary, and it became his son. That would also mean that, when the son had finished his work hear on earth, he was asking the Father to become a thought again in the Father’s mind, right?
John 17:4  “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
v. 5     “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Does it not make you wonder where our scholars and theologians get these glorious ideas? Did you notice how verse 5 ended? Before the world was. Jesus is telling us that he existed long before the world was, long before he became one of us, or have you forgotten?
Col. 1:16  “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him.”            
Also, how can we ignore the fact that God sent his son that he gave his son?
John 3:16  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17    “For God sent not his Son onto the world…”
You cannot give; you cannot send, what you don’t have. Pay close attention to the next two verses.
Luke 8:27  “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils a long time, and ware no cloth, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.”
v. 28   “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.”
These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.
Job 38:4  “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”  
v. 7     “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”
And then there are those that go to the other extreme and say, Jesus had no beginning, he always existed with the Father as a coequal. Read the next three scriptures carefully.
Col. 1:15  “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10  “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14  “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Every parent knows what a firstborn is. Does anyone not know what an image
is? An image is something you make after something or some one, it is a replica, could be
a statue or painting. Who is the one that created him? Would you agree it is the Creator? Why would Jesus say himself, he is the beginning of God’s creation?  Do we think he was lying? So, after reading all these scriptures, what is keeping us from believing the truth, tradition maybe?  
Jesus was made in the image of the Father, exactly what is this image? Spirit in nature. Adam was created in the image of God.
Gen. 1:26  “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was created flesh not spirit, a different nature; so what image was Adam created in? What is it that the Father, the Son and man have in common? A mind, Paul calls it a spirit.
1 Cor. 2:11   “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him…”  
God is a thinker, a planer, a builder and creator, and so are we, God made us that way, but most importantly, he gave us a mind to communicate with him. What animal can do that?
Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but he was also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18  “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
I believe, anyone that reads Col. 1:15 and 18, and does not believe what it says, it’s not because it is to complicate, it is a simple case of rejecting truth. Preeminence is to be the first in everything. You can read about the beginning of Gods creation, his Son, in the book of Proverbs; it is easiest understood when you read it in the JAMES MOFFAT translation.
Prov. 8:22   “ The Eternal formed me first of his creation, first of all his works in days of old;”
v. 23  “ I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when earth began;”
v. 24  “ I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
v. 25  “ ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born,”
v. 26   “ when earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the World.”
v. 27  “ When he set the heaven up, I was there, when he drew the Vault o’er the abyss,”
v. 28  “ when he made the clouds firm overhead, when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
v. 29  “ when he set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundations for the earth;”
v. 30  “ I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
Anyone who claims that these verses refer to wisdom obviously has none of his own. Read what Paul is teaching the saints.
Acts 13:33  “God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalms, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
You just read the account of the first time God raised up his Son, Prov. 8:23-30. The second time was from the dead. You have to be blind if you can’t see who is being talked about hear. That is exactly why we read in,
John 1:1   “ In the beginning was the Word… (Jesus was the Word).”
When we read in,
Gen. 1:1   “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jesus more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Someone called Jesus good once.
Luke 18:18  “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus rebuked him by saying,
v. 19   “And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? None is good, sav
e one, that is, God.”
If Jesus were God he would have never denied being good. That of course does not imply that he wasn’t.
Heb. 10:12   “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1   “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2     “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4     “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7     “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12    “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6   “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7     “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4   “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21   “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24   “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25   “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39   “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40   “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
God created all things for His glory. So then, why did God spared Noah and his family?
Gen. 6:9   “These are the generations of Noah; Noah was a just man and perfect in his
generation, and Noah walked with God.”
What does “perfect in his generations” mean? Noah and his family were the only pure humans left; all others flesh had been corrupted. To mix two kinds creates a hybrid and is an insult to God. The bible does tell us that Jesus was not a mixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16   “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4   “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23  “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
Jesus said he came to ransom many.
Matt. 20:28  “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
What is a ransom? During wartime prisoners of war were ransomed for other prisoners of war, it was an exchange. Jesus came to trade places with Adam. Jesus took Adams sin, and placed it on himself, freeing Adam from the grave, and taking his place in the grave. At his resurrection, God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid. God of course disposed of the body for obvious reasons. People have worshiped religious objects for centuries. Crosses with bone fragments of saints are especially sought after. Many Christians consider the shroud of Turin the most holy object, worthy of worship. Can you imagine how people would have treaded the body of Christ, had God left him in the tomb?        
We are all sinners and deserve death but for now we die for Adam’s sin; or how would you explain the death of infants and little children that know no sin. If we were to die for our sins now, then these little ones should live at least until they have committed a sin. Our only hope was in Jesus Christ who was not of our nature and not effected by the curse of death. God changed his spirit body into a human body; this change did not affect his mind, for he knew who he was, where he came from and why he had come. Jesus knew about his mission from creation,
Rev. 13:8   “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.”  
Although tempted in all things he remained sinless, it was his body that took on our sins, and he became sin for us. In his spirit, his mind, in his heart, he remained without sin.
2 Cor. 5:21   “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.”
Failure was not an option; it would have meant the end of his existence as well as all of ours. Jesus experienced all the things we do in our life, real thirst, real hunger, real pain and death.
Heb. 2:18   “For that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them
that are tempted.”
Heb. 4:15   “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Jesus endured it all because his mind was on the eternal not on the temporal.
Heb. 12:2   “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that
was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the
right hand of the throne of God.”
Jesus died and was placed in a tomb, and right hear is were ministers run into a contradiction by what they teach. They say that Jesus was not really dead, that instead he went to “hell”, and preached to the spirits, using this scripture.
1 Pet. 3:19  “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
First of all, to say that Jesus went to “hell” is an assumption; the scripture does not say that. Second, to say that these were the souls of deceased sinners, is an assumption too, the scripture does not say that either. Third, to say that you are alive after you die, claiming you have an immortal soul is in total opposition to the word of God. Finally
, assuming Jesus went to hell, what prevented him from being tormented by the flames? So, who are these spirits, and what is there prison? It seems that the scripture that gives us the answer has been completely overlooked, or ignored.
v. 20    “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing…”
These spirits are spirit beings, angels, which were disobedient in that they married woman, and produced hybrids. They are the once responsible for the flood, which I referred to a few pages back. Read Jude 6 and 7 and 2 Pet. 2:4 again. It was during the construction of the ark, in the days of Noah, that these spirits, angels, were preached to, told what would await them in the day of final judgment, but they are not being tormented by flames now.
Jesus died; trusting the Father he would raise him up, after three days and three nights, God did raise him up. Jesus was given back his true nature, spirit. His flesh body had taken on all of our sins, was no longer needed and God disposed of it. And why should that have surprised any one, that his body was gone? God did tell us ahead of time, he would not allow his body to decay.
Ps. 16:10   “For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).”
And Paul does explain,  
2 Cor. 5:16   “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”
Jesus no longer looked the same, which also explains why all his friends did not recognize him by sight.
John 20:15   “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom
seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4   “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the
disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”    
Luke 24:15   “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned,
Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16    “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”      
Thomas became a believer because Jesus showed him the wounds, not because he recognized him, John 20:26-29. Jesus could not appear in the same likeness as before, that body had taken on all of our sins, it was the exchange for Adam, it had to remain dead, because that is the penalty for sin, death, Rom. 6:23. Jesus in his spirit body does not look anything like his flesh body that is why all paintings and portraits of him are wrong; including the Shroud of Turin. Had God allowed an image of his son to appear on that shroud, He would have violated his own second commandment.
Forty days after his resurrection Jesus ascended to heaven. God accepted his sacrifice for all of us, and crowned him with glory, a glorious and divine spirit body and immortality.
John 5:26  “For as the Father has life in himself (immortality); so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (immortality).”
And raised him to the highest position of honor.
Eph. 1:20  “Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.”
This was the joy for which he endured the shame and the cross, Heb. 12:2. There is so much the bible wants to tell us, if we were only willing to listen. For instant, how could the Father have given him immortality, if he had it before? How could he have been raised to the highest position of honor, if he had occupied it before? Or, how can he inherit all things, which he already owns?
Heb. 1:2  “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things…”
How could Jesus have been made so much better than the angels?
Heb. 1:4  “Being made so much better than the angels.”
If Jesus was God, could he have been made any more perfect?
Heb. 2:10  “…to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering.”
Had Jesus been God, and immortal, he simply could not have died for us, that is what immortality means, death is impossible.
The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is our hope, because he has the keys to unlock the doors to our graves,
Rev. 1:18   “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (grave) and of death.”
1 Cor. 15:22   “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
v. 23    “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
Referring to the first resurrection. His coming want be anything like what we
have been told. There want be any visible signs or sounds, which will make us look up. We will not see the dead raised. Jesus himself told us that his coming would be like a thief, and so did Paul.
Rev. 16:15  “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, last he walk naked, and they see his shame.”
1 Thes. 5:2  “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so kometh as a thief in the night.”
The comparison with a thief is to make a point; his coming will not be noticed.  
John 5:28   “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice.”
v. 29    “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection; and they
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
        For many people that have done great evil to others, it may very well be a resurrection of damnation. All will be resurrected with the same thinking, the same attitudes as when they died.
Ezek. 16:53  “When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them.”
v. 54   “That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.”
v. 55   “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Ezekiel is saying, not only will Israel and Judah be restored, resurrected, but Sodom and Samaria, meaning all evil nations will be restored to their former estate as well. All will awake from their grave, thinking they have only been sleeping a few hours.    
All will be required to repent and to ask for forgiveness, there may be those that have done such evil deeds that they can’t or wont repent, nor ask for forgiveness; their fait is sealed. The resurrection of the dead will occur during the thousand-year reign of Christ, the Millennium. God designed this period so that all mankind would have the opportunity to learn the truth and repent. It will be the time when Christ will judge the world. But judgment does not come before a trial. We read in,
1 Peter 4:17   “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and
if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.”    
Judgment means teaching, testing, and trials, proving you are worthy to receive the gift of God, eternal life. The house of God is his Church, the body of Christ, the Saints. Judgment was on them first because they would reign with Christ. For all others their time of judgment will be during the millennium. The end of them that obey not the gospel during the millennium is also mentioned in,
Acts 3:23   “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
shall be destroyed from among his people.”
Which of course is the second death, eternal death, from which there is no resurrection. This
raises a question; who has your allegiance, your Church, your Minister or God? Remember,
Is. 8:20   “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is
because there is no light (understanding) in them.”    
Also keep in mind what Paul says in,
1 Thes. 5:21   “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”          
It is more than good advice!

I know this is long, but I hope you read all, it is an article from my Husbands studies.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[GeneBalthrop]

seek and you will find………i read most of your post, the problem is see with it is you have read in them what they actually did not specifically say. For instance where you implyed Jesus meant when He said ” and the father Himself which has sent me, has born witness of me, you have neither heard His voice at any time , nor seen His shape.

Well ever thing Jesus said was so, God did send Him, He also sent prophet, saviors to Isreal , plagues, serpents, locast, and so forth. The man Jesus was (foreordained) by God to come and was Manifested at our time. But where does it say He preexisted as a being before His apearence on earth, and such a great point would have been made absolutly clear by the apostles where there would be no dought don't you think and we would not have to read into the text our own interpitations to clearify them would we?. Infact doesn't it say for whom the Lord (Foreknew) He also predestend ect. Wouldn't that imply we all preexisted then ? You see we can draw all kind of conclusions that are not specificly said. Like making the atribute of God (wisdom) into the person Jesus. It's simply forcing the text and Christadom does this all the time, they make the scriptures say anything they want by doing that. If we are going to express the word we must keep it in context, and not ver of exactly what it says.

IMO….Love to you and yours……………..gene

[gollamudi]

Amen Gen,
I agree fully with your views on pre-existence myth of Jesus. Continue furthwer to convince our brothers like Nick, T8, WJ….
I thank you Mandy for welcoming me to this fold. I think you are not convinced about virgin birth of Jesus. You need not worry about that because God had to become father of Jesus by choosing a virgin like Mary which was foretold by prophet Isaiah. Otherwise Jesus can not be a literal son of the only True God. I hope you will appreciate this. You know I am not a good narrator of things and I am a man of few words. But I can understand others' views very well.
Thanks to all
God bless
Adam

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 28 2008,12:24)

seek and you will find………i read most of your post, the problem is see with it is you have read in them what they actually did not specifically say. For instance where you implyed Jesus meant when He said ” and the father Himself which has sent me, has born witness of me, you have neither heard His voice at any time , nor seen His shape. Well ever thing Jesus said was so, God did send Him, He also sent prophet, saviors to Isreal , plagues, serpents, locast, and so forth. The man Jesus was (foreordained) by God to come and was Manifested at our time. But where does it say He preexisted as a being before His apearence on earth, and such a great point would have been made absolutly clear by the apostles where there would be no dought don't you think and we would not have to read into the text our own interpitations to clearify them would we?. Infact doesn't it say for whom the Lord (Foreknew) He also predestend ect. Wouldn't that imply we all preexisted then ? You see we can draw all kind of conclusions that are not specificly said. Like making the atribute of God (wisdom) into the person Jesus. It's simply forcing the text and Christadom does this all the time, they make the scriptures say anything they want by doing that. If we are going to express the word we must keep it in context, and not ver of exactly what it says. IMO….Love to you and yours……………..gene

I agree with you Gene. I must admit that what John says is confusing in that it can be
interpreted many different ways after losing something in the translation. Perhaps it was clearer to those that spoke the same language at the time.

Many have taken their preconceived ideas and in their minds translated the word logos to mean Jesus whenever they see it. The Greek word logos simply did not mean Jesus.

The word of God was the word of God and was with God. And through His word He created everything. In essence He spoke the universe into existence. Then His word was made flesh and dwelt among us. That flesh was of course Jesus who was made by the word of God.

Tim

[GeneBalthrop]

Tim……good point Jesus was spoken into existence and brought into existence through Mary by the operation of God who is the only true word. Jesus plainly said the words he spoke were not His, but the Fathers.

peace to you and yours Tim………………gene

PS …. anyone heard from Mandy or Jodi lately?. They both have very good view points.

[Jodi]

Psalm 89:27
I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This scripture seems pretty clear to me that Yeshua was predestined to be appointed as Yah’s firstborn. Notice how the scripture says, I WILL. If Yeshua was not yet the firstborn when this scripture was written, then what was he?

[seek and you will find]

Jodi! So do you then say that Jesus preexisted before the world was? I do find it amazing even tho I have given several Scriptures that prove at least to me that He was there as a Spirit being with the Father before the world was. My previous post has all the scriptures in it. God send His Son into the world to save the world. So where did God send His Son from? And again:” Now glorify Me with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. What was that glory?
Rev. 3:14 ..These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.” Does beginning mean first?
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.
verse 16 FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN AND THAT ARE IN THE EARTH…..
Funny that firstborn and created means nothing to some of you.
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.
HE WAS BEFORE ALL THINGS. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Nothing was created yet, when God created the Word.(Jesus)
John 1:1 goes right along with all of this, where others have such a hard time with and think that that proves the trinity. But that is not so, if you realize that God is a title. There are many God's.
And the last scripture that I find important to prove what I am saying is that Jesus was first in everything.
Col. 1:18 And He is the Head of the body the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence.
What does preeminence mean, first in all. So JESUS WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND FIRSTBORN OF THE DEATH.
One more thing in the James Moffat of the translation of the Bible
Psalms 8:22 has a lot to say about Jesus
” The Eternal  formed me first of the creation first of all His works of old.
v.23 ” I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first when earth began.”
v.24 ” I was born when there were no abysses, when there was no fountains full of water.”
v.25 ” ere sank the bases of the mountain, ere the hills existed I was born.”
v.26 ” when earth and fields were not created, nor the first clods of the World.”
v.27 ” when He set the heaven up, I was there, when He drew the Vaults o're the abyss.”
v.28 ” when He made the clouds overhead, when He fixed the fountain of the deep.”
v.29 ” when He set the boundaries of the sea, when He laid foundations of the earth.”
v.30 ” I was with Him then, His Foster Child. I was His delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
But some will say that this is wisdom, but can wisdom be a person? Wisdom is what God consist off. It
is like having Love and Peace and knowledge.
Peace and Love Irene

[Ptr745]

Another good question as to Jesus' pre-existence is why would satan, who would have been well aware of Jesus before his birth if he had pre-existed, try and tempt him with a promise of power, when if Jesus had pre-existed, would already have it? Doesn't make any sense. How can you tempt somebody with something they already have? You can't.

MATTHEW 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[Jodi]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 30 2008,01:26)

Jodi! So do you then say that Jesus preexisted before the world was? I do find it amazing even tho I have given several Scriptures that prove at least to me that He was there as a Spirit being with the Father before the world was. My previous post has all the scriptures in it. God send His Son into the world to save the world. So where did God send His Son from? And again:” Now glorify Me with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. What was that glory? Rev. 3:14 ..These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.” Does beginning mean first? Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION. verse 16 FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN AND THAT ARE IN THE EARTH….. Funny that firstborn and created means nothing to some of you. verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist. HE WAS BEFORE ALL THINGS. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Nothing was created yet, when God created the Word.(Jesus) John 1:1 goes right along with all of this, where others have such a hard time with and think that that proves the trinity. But that is not so, if you realize that God is a title. There are many God's. And the last scripture that I find important to prove what I am saying is that Jesus was first in everything. Col. 1:18 And He is the Head of the body the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. What does preeminence mean, first in all. So JESUS WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND FIRSTBORN OF THE DEATH. One more thing in the James Moffat of the translation of the Bible Psalms 8:22 has a lot to say about Jesus ” The Eternal formed me first of the creation first of all His works of old. v.23 ” I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first when earth began.” v.24 ” I was born when there were no abysses, when there was no fountains full of water.” v.25 ” ere sank the bases of the mountain, ere the hills existed I was born.” v.26 ” when earth and fields were not created, nor the first clods of the World.” v.27 ” when He set the heaven up, I was there, when He drew the Vaults o're the abyss.” v.28 ” when He made the clouds overhead, when He fixed the fountain of the deep.” v.29 ” when He set the boundaries of the sea, when He laid foundations of the earth.” v.30 ” I was with Him then, His Foster Child. I was His delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.” But some will say that this is wisdom, but can wisdom be a person? Wisdom is what God consist off. It is like having Love and Peace and knowledge. Peace and Love Irene

Let's take this one point at a time

You are saying that Yeshua preexisted because we are told that he was sent. If he was SENT by Yah then he had to come from somewhere previous right? This is a problem, unless of course you believe that John also preexisted because we are told in the same language that John was SENT by Yah.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

[Jodi]

Mrs.,

Is Psalms not talking about Yeshua here?

Psalm 89:27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

Why WILL Yah have to APPOINT Yeshua as firstborn? You don't find it interesting how we see examples in the Old testament of the second brother being appointed as firstborn, because the first son was unrighteous? You don't find it interesting that Yeshua is referred to as being the second Adam?

Yeshua is first born of what creation? We are clearly told that he is the firstborn of the dead. Yeshua is the firstborn of the creation of man into immortality, which was a plan of Yah in the beginning.

Luke 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Under your doctrine shouldn't this read, the son of Adam, the son of Yeshua, the son of God?

1Co 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Seems weird that Yeshua who supposedly gave us life in the beginning BECAME a life -giving spirit.

[seek and you will find]

745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are. But let me ask you this, if Jesus would have been a mere man and did not have God's Holy Spirit full strength do you think He would not have sinned? He would have cause all man sin. He knew what was at stake and that is why He did not Sin. If Jesus would have failed, and He could have, we would all die. That is why God had to send His only begotten Son into the World, to save the World. No other sacrifice would have worked. And listen again to what it says. God so loved the world that He SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD…… Where did God send Him from?
Nobody can answer that question you just want to put that truth under the rug, but it does not work, there are to many scriptures. I have shown this over and over again and I do not understand why you all want to ignore this. This is not just my view it is the Bibles view.
Peace and Love Mrs.
P.S. I know already how some of you will respond in a negative way, but do yourself a favor and look at it like it is written, not like you want it to see. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way.  He created Heaven and earth…. How else can read that.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way.

Don't take it personal, Irene. There are MANY ways to read this passage. Many different ideas about what “firstborn” means. And I've visited them all – I can tell you that several different (opposing) ideas seem to fit the scriptures.

It depends on which way you slant your head in the morning.

Jodi and Gene, of course I agree with both of your viewpoints. It is how I see it as well. Good points. I love this debate. I always learn a ton.

[Jodi]

Hello again Mrs.

Can we just think about this for a minute. Your husband said,

You can read about the beginning of Gods creation, his Son, in the book of Proverbs; it is easiest understood when you read it in the JAMES MOFFAT translation.
Prov. 8:22 “ The Eternal formed me first of his creation, first of all his works in days of old;”
v. 23 “ I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when earth began;”
v. 24 “ I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
v. 25 “ ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born,”
v. 26 “ when earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the World.”
v. 27 “ When he set the heaven up, I was there, when he drew the Vault o’er the abyss,”
v. 28 “ when he made the clouds firm overhead, when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
v. 29 “ when he set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundations for the earth;”
v. 30 “ I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
Anyone who claims that these verses refer to wisdom obviously has none of his own.

I must say that things just don't add up here. Yeshua of Nazareth could not possible be the same thing as the Wisdom in Proverbs. What in the world would be the point for Yah to take Wisdom and form it into a baby who knows nothing?

Luke 2:40 The child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom; and the favor of God was upon him.

If Yeshua is the Wisdom and the Word, then why does he have to be filled with both from Yah as he grows?

It is seriously preposterous to say that Yeshua preexisted as the Wisdom of Yah and the Word of Yah. The bible clearly shows that Yeshua had to be GIVEN both. If you ARE something then you don't have to be given that which you are, do you? From what we know of Yeshua from Nazareth, he could not be in anyway the definition of your preexistent Son.

As well, don't these scriptures in Proverbs show that Yah was the creator?

These verses speak to me like poetry, not like a declaration of a preexistent Son. The scriptures are saying first and foremost that Yah created the heavens and the earth, and it is with His wisdom along side Him that made it possible. The wisdom that Yah had first, was then used for the making of His Creation.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,15:50)

Hi Not3, The god of this world had a secure squatters kingdom established here among men with an order of authority down to the demons. Only God could break it down. God needed a vessel for His Spirit to do this work as He does not come to tiny earth. He found a willing servant in heaven, His monogenes Son, whao agreed to come knowing opf his future rewards, and He sent him here guiding his growth and at the age of 30 human years empowered him eternally to do this victorious work. We continue it till they return.

I realize Nick is taking a break, but in reviewing this thread I couldn't help but make a comment on this above quote of his.

How many who believe in preexistence would be willing to stand with Nick and say that God found a willing participant in heaven to do the job? I wonder if they had a job description in the breakroom where the angels hung out?

Needed: Someone to borrow flesh and go down to filthy earth. There you will be taken over by God and no longer exist, but God will use your body to work his will. Your body will be destroyed, but then alive again. You will suffer, but you won't know it because it won't be you alive down there. Something like this…….

I'm sorry, if it sounds ridiculous it's because it is. No offense, Nick, if you're lurking, it just doesn't add up in my opinion.

[Jodi]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 30 2008,09:15)

745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are. But let me ask you this, if Jesus would have been a mere man and did not have God's Holy Spirit full strength do you think He would not have sinned? He would have cause all man sin. He knew what was at stake and that is why He did not Sin. If Jesus would have failed, and He could have, we would all die. That is why God had to send His only begotten Son into the World, to save the World. No other sacrifice would have worked. And listen again to what it says. God so loved the world that He SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD…… Where did God send Him from? Nobody can answer that question you just want to put that truth under the rug, but it does not work, there are to many scriptures. I have shown this over and over again and I do not understand why you all want to ignore this. This is not just my view it is the Bibles view. Peace and Love Mrs. P.S. I know already how some of you will respond in a negative way, but do yourself a favor and look at it like it is written, not like you want it to see. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way. He created Heaven and earth…. How else can read that. Peace and Love Mrs.

Mrs.

Where did Yah send John from?

[seek and you will find]

Jodi, Gen and Mandy! It is not my doctrine, but the word of God. Many ways of what firstborn means? The Webster Dictionary says firstborn is the first in a Family. Since We are God's Son and the Angels are considered God's Son, the firstborn was the Word who became Jesus. You tell me how else you can see it? You say something, but give no prove.
I have given you all those scriptures, while you use your own words, that is no prove. And Jodi gives other scriptures that have nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus.
Especially Col 1:18 shows us that Jesus was first in all. So He will have preeminence. First to be born of the Family of God and
first to be resurrected. He was second Adam as a Human being and has nothing to do with what He was before.
One more thing I asked Question that neither of you have answered. One question is where did God send Jesus to earth from? Yes Jesus was the most exalted of all the Kings. And again what does that have to do with what He was before.
Psalms 89:27 If He was the firstborn, He was before Adam too, would you not say that? You cant confuse what Jesus was before He became man, with what He was before the World began. He was God's delight what proverbs says.
Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 30 2008,09:15)

745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are. But let me ask you this, if Jesus would have been a mere man and did not have God's Holy Spirit full strength do you think He would not have sinned? He would have cause all man sin. He knew what was at stake and that is why He did not Sin. If Jesus would have failed, and He could have, we would all die. That is why God had to send His only begotten Son into the World, to save the World. No other sacrifice would have worked. And listen again to what it says. God so loved the world that He SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD…… Where did God send Him from? Nobody can answer that question you just want to put that truth under the rug, but it does not work, there are to many scriptures. I have shown this over and over again and I do not understand why you all want to ignore this. This is not just my view it is the Bibles view. Peace and Love Mrs. P.S. I know already how some of you will respond in a negative way, but do yourself a favor and look at it like it is written, not like you want it to see. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way. He created Heaven and earth…. How else can read that. Peace and Love Mrs.

Mrs.,

We are reading this in its CONTEXT, you seem to be skimming over verse 18, which tells us what creation Yeshua is firstborn of. These passages starting in verse 12 is talking about the earth of our inheritance, the kingdom of Yeshua.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

How is it that it is BY Yeshua that all things will exist? Because he created us in the beginning? No, the context is because he gave us redemption through his blood. The scriptures are not telling us that Yeshua was our creator, they are telling us that because of him we will receive immortality.

Verse 18 says he is the beginning of…. those brought forth from the dead, not that he was the first person Yah created when the heavens and earth were formed. Knowing that Yah predestined this all to happen, it is clear to understand why we are told that the heavens and earth were created by Yah's knowledge of him, and for him.

We cannot find the story you believe anywhere in scripture, that Yeshua lost his glory and became a human being. The Son of Yah came into existence as a human being and was resurrected a human being. Luke tells us that Yeshua remained flesh and bone! Yehsua's glory was not that he preexisted as Yah's Wisdom and as His Word, but his glory was found in what Yah in the beginning planned it to be, through him being a human being that selflessly beard our sins and died.

[Jodi]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 30 2008,11:02)

Jodi, Gen and Mandy! It is not my doctrine, but the word of God. Many ways of what firstborn means? The Webster Dictionary says firstborn is the first in a Family. Since We are God's Son and the Angels are considered God's Son, the firstborn was the Word who became Jesus. You tell me how else you can see it? You say something, but give no prove. I have given you all those scriptures, while you use your own words, that is no prove. And Jodi gives other scriptures that have nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. Especially Col 1:18 shows us that Jesus was first in all. So He will have preeminence. First to be born of the Family of God and first to be resurrected. He was second Adam as a Human being and has nothing to do with what He was before. One more thing I asked Question that neither of you have answered. One question is where did God send Jesus to earth from? Yes Jesus was the most exalted of all the Kings. And again what does that have to do with what He was before. Psalms 89:27 If He was the firstborn, He was before Adam too, would you not say that? You cant confuse what Jesus was before He became man, with what He was before the World began. He was God's delight what proverbs says. Peace and Love Irene

Mrs.

Why don't you address the fact that JOHN WAS SENT, just as Yeshua was.

Being sent represents Yah's plan. In the beginning before Yah created the heavens and the earth, he had a plan. You cannot deny this. Yeshua and John, the one who would bear witness to Yeshua, were IN Yah's plan. When the time had come, they that were in the beginning of Yah's plan were sent into the world.

Quote

And Jodi gives other scriptures that have nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. Especially Col 1:18 shows us that Jesus was first in all. So He will have preeminence. First to be born of the Family of God and first to be resurrected. He was second Adam as a Human being and has nothing to do with what He was before.

Wow Mrs, this is truly amazing your line of thinking. At this point it is truly boggling my mind. Do you realize what you just said. You are saying that verse 18 has nothing to do with verse 15.

Does not Pslams 89:27 shows that there was not yet a firstborn?

[Jodi]

Mrs,

If Proverbs is revealing to us that Wisdom is a preexistent Yeshua, then why is Wisdom referred to as being a SHE and not the Son of Yah?

Proverbs 7:4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” and call insight your intimate friend,

Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right;

9:1 Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn her seven pillars. 2 She has slaughtered her animals, she has mixed her wine, she has also set her table. 3 She has sent out her servant-girls, she calls from the highest places in the town,

Like I said before this is reading to me like poetry where Yah's wisdom is being portrayed as a SHE. If Yah's wisdom was suppose to be a preexistent Son, I sure do not see any sign of such a thing here in Proverbs.

[Not3in1]

Boy, Jodi and Irene are giving this thread a good ride. Cool.

I'll be back tonight and hopefully contribute something a little more meaningful. Too many distractions this afternoon.

One thing I wanted to point out in regards to the word “firstborn”, is that to be “born” you must first be conceived. Jesus is a son. A son is a product of his parents. Was Mary also in heaven before she was born? Or do you believe that Mary was just a baby factory with nothing to contribute to Jesus. The preexistence thread and the conception thread go hand-in-hand as far as I am concerned.

[Author]

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