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Hi Is 1.19,
You quote
Hebrews 3:1-6
Hebrews 3:1-6
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.There are two houses of faith built by Moses and by Christ-the new and the old covenants.
The builder of both and of all things ultimately is God, by His Spirit.
Moses taught the words of God and brought the Jewish flock to God.
He did not build the house for God but was a faithful servant in his appointed duties.
Christ not only built the new house of faith but also is that house and that house belongs to him.He then deserves more glory that the other man Moses.
No suggestion that Christ is God Himself but rather it is specified that he is son of God, and a High Priest and an apostle of God
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,16:33) There are two houses of faith built by Moses and by Christ-the new and the old covenants.
Moses is not descibed as having “built” a house in the text. That's a key difference that you have overlooked, and it's critical to the idea the writer was pressing. Read it carefully.Quote The builder of both and of all things ultimately is God, by His Spirit.
I agree that the ultimate builder of all things is God. That is not in dispute. However, although you dichotomise The Father and Son in respect to Creation, relegating the Son to an impassive instrument, scripture does not. The Hebrews passage does not contrast Jesus from God, it contrasts Jesus from Moses and equates Him with God.For this man [Jesus] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God
Quote Moses taught the words of God and brought the Jewish flock to God.
He did not build the house for God but was a faithful servant in his appointed duties.
Christ not only built the new house of faith but also is that house and that house belongs to him.
“house of faith”? – where is that written?Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:44) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 27 2007,00:11) Hi Is,
Hi Tim, how is it?Quote In the verse that you quoted, the underlined “for a little while” only appears in perhaps two of the many translations. I think the NLT and one other. It's rendered that way in a few more tranlations than two:
NASB
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.AMP
9But we are able to see Jesus, Who was ranked lower than the angels for a little while, crowned with glory and honor because of His having suffered death, in order that by the grace (unmerited favor) of God [to us sinners] He might experience death for every individual person.ESV
9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.CEV
9What we do see is Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels. Because of God's wonderful kindness, Jesus died for everyone. And now that Jesus has suffered and died, he is crowned with glory and honor!NLV
9 But we do see Jesus. For a little while He took a place that was not as important as the angels. But God had loving-favor for everyone. He had Jesus suffer death on a cross for all of us. Then, because of Christ's death on a cross, God gave Him the crown of honor and shining-greatness.HCSB
9 But we do see Jesus— made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone—crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death.WE
9But we do see Jesus! For a short time he was lower than the angels. Because he died, we see him made great and high. He did this so that he could die for every person. God is so good!TNIV
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.I see this part of the verse as paralleling those of Phil 2:5-8, 2 Cor 8:9. To me the “humbling” was temporal, the word “made” in Heb 2:9, to me, infers that there was a change in status from a place that was higher (than the angels) to one that was lower.
Who was made a little lower than the angels. – That is, as a man, or when on earth. His assumed rank was inferior to that of the angels. He took upon himself not the nature of angels Hebrews 2:16, but the nature of man. The apostle is probably here answering some implied objections to the rank which it was claimed that the Lord Jesus had, or which might be urged to the views which he was defending. These objections were mainly two. First, that Jesus was a man; and secondly, that he suffered and died. If that was the fact, it was natural to ask how he could be superior to the angels? How could he have had the rank which was claimed for him? This he answers by showing first, that his condition as a man was “voluntarily” assumed – “he was made lower than the angels;” and secondly, by showing that as a consequence of his sufferings and death, he was immediately crowned with glory and honor. This state of humiliation became him in the great work which he had undertaken, and he was immediately exalted to universal dominion, and as Mediator was raised to a rank far above the angels.
Barnes' Notes – http://bibletools.org/….sThanks for your thoughts.
Hi Is 1:18,Wow! I didn't even know some of those versions even existed.
Thanks for the list.This one verse shows why there is so much confusion in the bible. And explains why little ol' me is so confused.
In the KJV, the NKJV, the NIV, the ASV, the YLT, the DBY and the HNV as well as the Greek interlineary, that phrase “for a little while” doesn't even exist.
Where did those words come from?Even if I disregard whether it was for a little while or not,
the verse is still confusing. Not only to me but apparently to every one of the translators.
Some make it sound as if Jesus was made a little lower than the angels because He had to suffer death.
Some make it sound like Jesus was give glory because He suffered death.
Some make it sound like He was little lower for a little while.
Some make it sound like He was made a little lower period.How can we use any verse that is this missunderstood as a proof of anything?
Tim
Hi Is 1.18,
“For every house is builded by some man”“but he that built all things is God”
Men are vessels, tools used by God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,06:48) Hi Is 1.18,
“For every house is builded by some man”“but he that built all things is God”
Men are vessels, tools used by God.
NHUnless of course you are the Word that is God, by whom “All things were made” and who came in the flesh!
as Hi W,
You mean the man,
The Priest of God,
The Apostle of Godas mentioned in these particular verses
in relationship to God Himself?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,08:51) as Hi W,
You mean the man,
The Priest of God,
The Apostle of Godas mentioned in these particular verses
in relationship to God Himself?
NHRemember, there is only “One Being” called God who created all things!
Look…
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
But You say God created all things through a lessor being who you call a “Son of God” that existed as a son before he was born!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,07:05) Just like Jesus raising himself from the dead and yet the Father raising him from the dead!
When Peter and Paul talked about the resurrection, they always said that God raised Jesus from the dead! Giving careful, thoughtful, praise and glory to God for raising their Teacher. They were good Jewish – God – fearing – men who gave praise to God (the Father) for giving such power to men on earth.Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father. Remember that Jesus can do nothing of himself! Nothing! Jesus even gives this honor to God, the Father. We should too!
Quote (942767 @ June 27 2007,10:02) Hi Nick: I have looked at all of these scriptures that you have given me relative to many sons of Gods being with God in the beginning but these scriptures do not attest to that at all. Also, there is one other scripture relative to a son of God that you did not mention, and so I will quote it below:
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Adam was a son of God)Gen 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.(I understand these sons of God to be the lineage of Seth)
Job 1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. (NIV says angels not sons of God)
Job 38:5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone– 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? (Again NIV says angels, and not sons of God)
Psalm 82:6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. (they were called sons of God to whom the word of God was spoken)
Psalm 89:24 My faithful love will be with him, and through my name his horn will be exalted. 25 I will set his hand over the sea, his right hand over the rivers. 26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' 27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (This may refer to Jesus, but is prophetic.)
And then you say:
Quote The image of God was of divine nature, a spirit being alike to God. Where is this written?
And besides all of this the scripture states that Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God. There is only one event in the scripture which relates to this event.
God Bless
Amen, 94, AMEN! I'm doing an “Amen jig” to what you have said.There is only “one event” that speaks to Jesus becoming the “only begotten Son” and that is the conception and birth of Jesus.
All other scriptures that speak of Jesus are in the prophetic. The burden of proof, as I see it, is on those who say Jesus preexisted.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:55) Scrpiture say that “all things” came by/through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16), therefore it's quite natural to assume that He is uncreated.
Isaiah,You are a good teacher. Tell me why I cannot believe that all things came through Jesus and that means *through the plan or will of Jesus*? Why do we have to “assume” that he is uncreated?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,15:25) To me John 1:3, Col 1:16 and Heb 1:2 show that the prehuman Jesus was involved in Creation,
But HOW was he involved?Hi not3,
Those who accept trinity cannot align this God with the OT.
They must say the God of the NT supercedes the revelation of God in the OT.
They must actually reject the OT in favour of the NT yet a good storeman uses both.
They say they see glimpses of their god in the OT but can never find anything written about such a being.
As you show this god is a new and strange unbiblical god.
We should abhor such teaching about new gods.
WE have a true God.
His son told us.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,15:25) In the context of the Chapter it unequivocally shows that Yeshua was the literal Creator, HE laid the foundations of the Earth, the Heavens are the works of HIS hands.
Sorry, I asked my question too soon before I read all of your post! You answered it here in the quote above.Wow. I'm a bit speechless, brother……..
As a Trinitarian, are you saying that “God” laid the foundations with “his own hand” and that that hand was the hand of Jesus?
I'm kinda scared to get the answer to this question….
Hi 94,
God is a spirit being of soul and spirit.4The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Christ is the image of God, and the firstborn of every creature.
Col1
” 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” .Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“In the context of the Chapter it unequivocally shows that Yeshua was the literal Creator, HE laid the foundations of the Earth, the Heavens are the works of HIS hands.”Creators create.
Builders lay created foundations.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,15:37) They say they see glimpses of their god in the OT but can never find anything written about such a being.
Well, I certainly have not found anything about this Trinity God in the OT – and God knows I've tried. Oh! Have I tried and tried….over tears…..over fasting……over beer! Ha! Everything, and yet nothing.Only this – there is One God – the Father – and one Lord – Jesus Christ.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,07:05) Just like Jesus raising himself from the dead and yet the Father raising him from the dead!
When Peter and Paul talked about the resurrection, they always said that God raised Jesus from the dead! Giving careful, thoughtful, praise and glory to God for raising their Teacher. They were good Jewish – God – fearing – men who gave praise to God (the Father) for giving such power to men on earth.Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father. Remember that Jesus can do nothing of himself! Nothing! Jesus even gives this honor to God, the Father. We should too!
not3You say…
Quote
Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father.Not quite. Jesus in this incident didnt say that “The power” was committed to him.
The power was already his.
Jn 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.This passage aligns beautifully with Phil. 2 and John 1:1,14 Jesus came down form heaven, leaving the glory he shared with the Father to take on the likeness of sinfull flesh.
He came to “do the will” of the Father!
Not3 can you name a being that had the power or could claim to raise himself from the dead?
Would this not be a contradiction to the disciples own words if Jesus was not the Word/God in the flesh, the Lord from heaven.
One God.
Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
You see the scriptures also claim that the Spirit of God raised Jesus.
And we know who that Spirit is dont we?
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