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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,18:50) Hi WJ,
You say
“But the scriptures plainly tell us to follow God.”
Can you give us just one quote?
NH1 Kings 18:21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.What about Enoch? Do you think he followed God? How about Noah, Moses, Elijah, David, and on and on, did they follow him?
If you obey the leading of Gods Spirit are you following God?
These are elementary things of the faith are they not?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,18:57) Hi WJ,
You say
“So the argument that if Yeshua is not a mere man then we cant follow him is a red herring, a smoke screen to cover up the fact that Yeshua was divine.”Is this the supereman you speak of
Is 53
“1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”
So what happened when this 'divine man' was empowered from above?
Was he given even more power?Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.It is strange we never saw any supernatural powers from a divine man before that anointing.
Can we follow divine men?
NHYes Yeshua was also a man. What about his Eternal Spirit though?
Jn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.Can you follow him and raise yourself from the dead?
You do believe these words dont you? Yeshua did say them didnt he?
In fact Yeshua said “I am the ressurection and the life”. Can you make that claim NH? Can any Son of God?
Sounds like more than a mere man to me!
So I guess he was more than a mere man.
A divine man actually!
Quote Before Jesus became flesh He was the Word? Was that the spoken Word of God? Jesus' name in heaven before He became flesh was Word? Did God tell the Word to create light? All things were created through the WORD and for the WORD that became flesh…a person the very first child of God. So the Word became flesh, then what was the Word before the Word became flesh? The very first thing God created was the Word. Then He spoke everything into existence.
Kenrch;
Before Christ was the Son of God, he was not begotten. The gospel of John is the revelation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Christ was begotten on a certain day but the actual day we know not, because he was his Father before the foundation of the world.
Jesus said the seed is the Word of God. Whatever is begotten of God can only be begotten by the Word of God because the Word is God. John said all things were made by “him” and without him was not any thing made that was made. “Him” refers to a person, not a force, a spirit, an angel, or otherwise. Jesus has never changed, he has been the Son of God ever since he was born of God before the world began.
Christ was declared the Son of God more times in scripture than any other title. Every time Christ said he was the Son of God or another person proclaimed he was the Son of God, the declaration was that Christ had a beginning, which was when he was begotten by God.
A person can only have one origin. Christ said he was in heaven before he came and would return to where he was before. So if Christ was not the Son of God prior to coming to earth he would be returning to a non-existent state, which is impossible. He would be the Word again, not the Son of God.
The nature of the relationship of Christ and the Father is portrayed and spoken of by Christ throughout the gospel but particularly in John. Christ tells us he is completely dependent on God, not that he is God. He reveals that God is his Father and that we can be sons of God, too.
As soon as Christ was baptized, he went into the desert to be tempted of the devil. Satan begins by attacking Christ's identity;e.g., “If thou be the Son of God…”
The work of God is to first know who Christ is, then to witness who is to others. When Paul was converted in Acts he began to proclaim in the synagogues the same truth- That Christ was the Son of God.
The enemy has always attempted to veer those seeking God from knowing who Christ is because that is the key to truth.
Take Care
Steven
Quote …the declaration was that Christ had a beginning, which was when he was begotten by God. I have only one issue with this. If ALL THINGS were made by him, how could He be made with out himself?
Imagine a person if you will whom is created in God's image…
…Body, soul and spirit. The body (the flesh) is subject to the will of the being, the spirit is the life's force, for the body with out the spirit is dead.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,10:56) Hi dc,
Begotten of God alone.
Monogenes Son.
He was begotten at the time of His birth. Prior to that, as in “in the beginning”, He was with God and WAS God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,11:40) Hi Oxy,
Was not the monogenes Son
SENT INTO the world?
1Jn4.9
When you look back at the event in past tense, yes, God sent His Son.But when you look at it from the time frame in which it happened, God sent the Word via Mary, to be born as His Son. Until such time as He was born, He was not a Son, He was with God and WAS God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,11:50) Hi Oxy,
Who is the Son of God in Prov 30.4?
He was before Christ Jesus was born.
Hi Nick, the verse mentioned is part of a prophesy. It is speaking prophetically of the coming of the Son of God.Oxy There are scriptures that clearly tell you that Jesus preexisted before the world began. If it says that He was the firstborn of all creatures, would you not think that that is a person and not just in the future? He existed before He became a man born of Mary.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible…. ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM.
Rev. 3:14 These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.THIS IS THE TRUTH YOU MAY BELIEF IT OR DENY IT, THAT IS UP TO YOU, BUT I BELIEF IF YOU HAVE GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND AND BELIEF WHAT I AND SOME OTHERS ARE SAYING. AND I AM NOT A JEHOVAH WITNESS EITHER.
AS FAR AS PROVERBS IS CONCERNED I ALSO THINK YOU ARE WRONG IN THE JAMES MOFFATT TRANSLATION IT EXPLAINS IT THESE WAY
PROVERB 8:22 THE ETERNAL FORMED ME FIRST OF HIAS CREATION, FIRST OF ALL HIS WORKS IN DAYS OF OLD.
V.23 I WAS FASHIONED IN THE EARLIEST AGES, FROM THE VERY FIRST, WHEN EARTH BEGAN.
V. 24 I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WERE NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNTAINS FULL OF WATER.
V.25 ERE HE SUNK THE BASIS OF THE MOUNTAINS, ERE THE HILLS EXISTED, I WAS B O R N.
V. 26 WHEN EARTH AND FIELDS WERE NOT CREATED, NOR THE VERY FIRST CLODS OF THE WORLD.
V. 27 WHEN HE SET THE HEAVEN UP, I W A S T H E R E WHEN HE DREW THE VAULT O'RE THE ABYSS.
V. 28 WHEN HE MADE THE CLOUDS FIRM OVERHEAD, WHEN HE FIXED THE FOUNTAINS OF THE DEEP.
V. 29 WHEN HE SET THE BOUNDARIES OF THE SEA, WHEN HE LAID THE FOUNDATION FOR THE EARTH.
V. 30 I WAS WITH HIM THEN HIS FOSTER CHILD I WAS HIS DELIGHT DAY AFTER DAY, PLAYING IN HIS PRESENCE CONSTANTLY.I sure hope you will once and for all belief, I know how it is, I did not want to belief this either at first and I thought this is crazy. But God did not leave me in that belief and I thank Him for that understanding.
I want to touch on something else that is just my belief and is not that I can prove that is scipture. I have wondered if Jesus was just a man like us, if He would not have sinned. I belief because He was taught by the Father right from the start, that He did have the Fathers Spirit full strength and therefore would or could not have sinned, even tho He was tempted like we were. He knew what was at stake. Thanks be to our Heavenly Father and Our Savior Jesus Christ for dying on the cross for us so we can have eternal life. AmenPeace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 20 2007,13:33) Oxy There are scriptures that clearly tell you that Jesus preexisted before the world began. If it says that He was the firstborn of all creatures, would you not think that that is a person and not just in the future? He existed before He became a man born of Mary.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible…. ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM.
Rev. 3:14 These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.THIS IS THE TRUTH YOU MAY BELIEF IT OR DENY IT, THAT IS UP TO YOU, BUT I BELIEF IF YOU HAVE GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND AND BELIEF WHAT I AND SOME OTHERS ARE SAYING. AND I AM NOT A JEHOVAH WITNESS EITHER.
AS FAR AS PROVERBS IS CONCERNED I ALSO THINK YOU ARE WRONG IN THE JAMES MOFFATT TRANSLATION IT EXPLAINS IT THESE WAY
PROVERB 8:22 THE ETERNAL FORMED ME FIRST OF HIAS CREATION, FIRST OF ALL HIS WORKS IN DAYS OF OLD.
V.23 I WAS FASHIONED IN THE EARLIEST AGES, FROM THE VERY FIRST, WHEN EARTH BEGAN.
V. 24 I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WERE NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNTAINS FULL OF WATER.
V.25 ERE HE SUNK THE BASIS OF THE MOUNTAINS, ERE THE HILLS EXISTED, I WAS B O R N.
V. 26 WHEN EARTH AND FIELDS WERE NOT CREATED, NOR THE VERY FIRST CLODS OF THE WORLD.
V. 27 WHEN HE SET THE HEAVEN UP, I W A S T H E R E WHEN HE DREW THE VAULT O'RE THE ABYSS.
V. 28 WHEN HE MADE THE CLOUDS FIRM OVERHEAD, WHEN HE FIXED THE FOUNTAINS OF THE DEEP.
V. 29 WHEN HE SET THE BOUNDARIES OF THE SEA, WHEN HE LAID THE FOUNDATION FOR THE EARTH.
V. 30 I WAS WITH HIM THEN HIS FOSTER CHILD I WAS HIS DELIGHT DAY AFTER DAY, PLAYING IN HIS PRESENCE CONSTANTLY.I sure hope you will once and for all belief, I know how it is, I did not want to belief this either at first and I thought this is crazy. But God did not leave me in that belief and I thank Him for that understanding.
I want to touch on something else that is just my belief and is not that I can prove that is scipture. I have wondered if Jesus was just a man like us, if He would not have sinned. I belief because He was taught by the Father right from the start, that He did have the Fathers Spirit full strength and therefore would or could not have sinned, even tho He was tempted like we were. He knew what was at stake. Thanks be to our Heavenly Father and Our Savior Jesus Christ for dying on the cross for us so we can have eternal life. AmenPeace and Love Mrs.
Hi IM4Truth,If you read on a couple of verses on Colosians it clarifies “First Born over all creation”
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
This shows that Jesus was not only the First Born Son of God, but He was the First Born of the Kingdom of God. It doesn't means He was born before anyone else in the natural sense of the word.
As for your second comment, I too wonder if He could have sinned because of this Scripture.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.That doesn't mean He wasn't tempted, because we know He was, but He's the only person ever to live that never sinned. The fullness of God dwelling in Him would have certainly been a factor.
Hi Oxy,
Was Christ anointed and empowered at birth?
From when did God inhabit the vessel of His Son?
From the Jordan, only after which he began his works of power.
Till then he had all the choices we have but never sinned and after then he was led by God's Spirit, and did not sin.
Lk4
1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Mt4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mk1
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,15:53) Hi Oxy,
Was Christ anointed and empowered at birth?
From when did God inhabit the vessel of His Son?
From the Jordan, only after which he began his works of power.
Till then he had all the choices we have but never sinned and after then he was led by God's Spirit, and did not sin.
Lk4
1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Mt4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mk1
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
My understanding is that He had the fullness of the Father dwelling in Him from birth. He amazed the scholars at age 12 with His wisdom, but not only that, I belive Jesus was about 30 when He was filled with the Holy Spirit at His baptism. What kept Him from sinning beforehand?Surely it was the fullness of the Father dwelling in Him. After receiving the Holy Spirit Jesus entered into His ministry, as led by the Holy Spirit and instructed by His Father.
Hi Oxy,
We need more than that.
If he was filled with God from birth why is there such limited evidence?
If he was filled with the Spirit of God at the Jordan how could God indwell him without that Spirit before then?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,16:22) Hi Oxy,
We need more than that.
If he was filled with God from birth why is there such limited evidence?
If he was filled with the Spirit of God at the Jordan how could God indwell him without that Spirit before then?
Because the Father and the Spirit are two different identities Nick.It wasn't His time to enter into the ministerial aspect of His life until the appointed time, in which case He needed the Holy Spirit.
Hi Oxy,
Does God, Who is Spirit, not remain in union with His own Spirit?
How odd.
Do any other beings separate from their own spirit?
Do any other beings have an existence apart from their spirit?
Scripture suggests that is death to beings to be separate from spirit.
James 2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,16:39) Hi Oxy,
Does God, Who is Spirit, not remain in union with His own Spirit?
How odd.
Do any other beings separate from their own spirit?
Do any other beings have an existence apart from their spirit?
Scripture suggests that is death to beings to be separate from spirit.
James 2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
It's a bit hard to be seperate from your spirit when you are omnipresent, don't you think?God is spirit, we know that, but then why does Scripture differentiate between the Father and the Holy Spirit? Why is the Holy Spirit mentioned at all in Scripture?
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