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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,07:48) Hi not3,
He is the firstborn son.
Jb38
I love Job 38!God has such a sarcastic way about him in this chapter, doesn't he? He says to Job in verse 21, “Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!” Ha! In other words – Job you don't know anything!!
This verse is also important to me because it shows us that man does not preexist.
But where does Job 38 speak of a firstborn son?
It is interesting how this chapter talks about the womb and giving birth to things as their beginnings…..
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,08:41) Hi not3,
It speaks of other sons.
Ok Nick:If Jesus pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary, in what form did he pre-exist that birth, and to use one of your favorite terms, where is it written?
God Bless
Hi 94,
God loved the monogenes son.
Many sons were with God in the beginning[Gen6, Jb 1,2,38, ps 82, 89]
The image of God was of divine nature, a spirit being alike to God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,09:14) Hi 94,
God loved the monogenes son.
Many sons were with God in the beginning[Gen6, Jb 1,2,38, ps 82, 89]
The image of God was of divine nature, a spirit being alike to God.
Q1) Were these sons described in Gen 6; Job 1,2,38; Ps 82, 89 created or uncreated?Q2) Was the Logos created or uncreated?
Q3) If the answer to #1 is created and the answer to #2 is uncreated then is it logical to assume that they were “sons” in entirely different senses.
Hi Nick:
I have looked at all of these scriptures that you have given me relative to many sons of Gods being with God in the beginning but these scriptures do not attest to that at all. Also, there is one other scripture relative to a son of God that you did not mention, and so I will quote it below:
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Adam was a son of God)Gen 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.(I understand these sons of God to be the lineage of Seth)
Job 1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. (NIV says angels not sons of God)
Job 38:5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone– 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? (Again NIV says angels, and not sons of God)
Psalm 82:6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. (they were called sons of God to whom the word of God was spoken)
Psalm 89:24 My faithful love will be with him, and through my name his horn will be exalted. 25 I will set his hand over the sea, his right hand over the rivers. 26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' 27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (This may refer to Jesus, but is prophetic.)
And then you say:
Quote The image of God was of divine nature, a spirit being alike to God. Where is this written?
And besides all of this the scripture states that Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God. There is only one event in the scripture which relates to this event.
God Bless
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,09:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,09:14) Hi 94,
God loved the monogenes son.
Many sons were with God in the beginning[Gen6, Jb 1,2,38, ps 82, 89]
The image of God was of divine nature, a spirit being alike to God.
Q1) Were these sons described in Gen 6; Job 1,2,38; Ps 82, 89 created or uncreated?Q2) Was the Logos created or uncreated?
Q3) If the answer to #1 is created and the answer to #2 is uncreated then is it logical to assume that they were “sons” in entirely different senses.
Hi Is 1.18,
Q1
What does scripture say or should we assume?The Monogenes Son is begotten.
Would that make him the God from Whom he was begotten?Quote (TimothyVI @ June 27 2007,00:11) Hi Is,
Hi Tim, how is it?Quote In the verse that you quoted, the underlined “for a little while” only appears in perhaps two of the many translations. I think the NLT and one other. It's rendered that way in a few more tranlations than two:
NASB
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.AMP
9But we are able to see Jesus, Who was ranked lower than the angels for a little while, crowned with glory and honor because of His having suffered death, in order that by the grace (unmerited favor) of God [to us sinners] He might experience death for every individual person.ESV
9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.CEV
9What we do see is Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels. Because of God's wonderful kindness, Jesus died for everyone. And now that Jesus has suffered and died, he is crowned with glory and honor!NLV
9 But we do see Jesus. For a little while He took a place that was not as important as the angels. But God had loving-favor for everyone. He had Jesus suffer death on a cross for all of us. Then, because of Christ's death on a cross, God gave Him the crown of honor and shining-greatness.HCSB
9 But we do see Jesus— made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone—crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death.WE
9But we do see Jesus! For a short time he was lower than the angels. Because he died, we see him made great and high. He did this so that he could die for every person. God is so good!TNIV
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.I see this part of the verse as paralleling those of Phil 2:5-8, 2 Cor 8:9. To me the “humbling” was temporal, the word “made” in Heb 2:9, to me, infers that there was a change in status from a place that was higher (than the angels) to one that was lower.
Who was made a little lower than the angels. – That is, as a man, or when on earth. His assumed rank was inferior to that of the angels. He took upon himself not the nature of angels Hebrews 2:16, but the nature of man. The apostle is probably here answering some implied objections to the rank which it was claimed that the Lord Jesus had, or which might be urged to the views which he was defending. These objections were mainly two. First, that Jesus was a man; and secondly, that he suffered and died. If that was the fact, it was natural to ask how he could be superior to the angels? How could he have had the rank which was claimed for him? This he answers by showing first, that his condition as a man was “voluntarily” assumed – “he was made lower than the angels;” and secondly, by showing that as a consequence of his sufferings and death, he was immediately crowned with glory and honor. This state of humiliation became him in the great work which he had undertaken, and he was immediately exalted to universal dominion, and as Mediator was raised to a rank far above the angels.
Barnes' Notes – http://bibletools.org/….sThanks for your thoughts.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,10:35) Hi Is 1.18,
Q1
What does scripture say or should we assume?
Scrpiture say that “all things” came by/through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16), therefore it's quite natural to assume that He is uncreated. You have said as much yourself:Quote Hi Is 1.18,
The Monogenes Son was unique.
The firstborn Son, an image begotten of God alone.
The other created sons came through him as did all creation.https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….6;st=60
If one Son is credited for being the Creator of “all things” and the other sons are simply part of creation, then I cannot understand why you constantly cite scriptures alluding to these other “sons” as evidence of Jesus preexistence (there is good evidence for this elsewhere), as if He was just one of many sons but the greatest of them. The gulf between the sons mentioned in Gen 6; Job 1,2,38; Ps 82, 89 and the Logos, their Creator, is infinite.
Quote The Monogenes Son is begotten.
Would that make him the God from Whom he was begotten?
Was He begotten before his Earthly one? Let's have some evidence of this begettal. Where is it written?
Quote (942767 @ June 27 2007,10:02) Hi Nick: I have looked at all of these scriptures that you have given me relative to many sons of Gods being with God in the beginning but these scriptures do not attest to that at all. Also, there is one other scripture relative to a son of God that you did not mention, and so I will quote it below:
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Adam was a son of God)Gen 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.(I understand these sons of God to be the lineage of Seth)
Job 1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. (NIV says angels not sons of God)
Job 38:5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone– 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? (Again NIV says angels, and not sons of God)
Psalm 82:6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. (they were called sons of God to whom the word of God was spoken)
Psalm 89:24 My faithful love will be with him, and through my name his horn will be exalted. 25 I will set his hand over the sea, his right hand over the rivers. 26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' 27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (This may refer to Jesus, but is prophetic.)
And then you say:
Quote The image of God was of divine nature, a spirit being alike to God. Where is this written?
And besides all of this the scripture states that Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God. There is only one event in the scripture which relates to this event.
God Bless
I agree SDN. It's generally understood that these sons of God (“bene elohim”) are angels, not God's 'begotten' progeny.Many believe the Sons of God were fallen angels who corrupted mankind.”
http://creationwiki.org/Nephilim“The actual expression “sons of God,” bene elohim, occurs explicitly three other times, all in the very ancient book of Job (1:6; 2:1; 38:7), and in each case the term refers indisputably to angelic beings. These are the beings whom, apparently, were created sometime during the first half of the creation week, probably on the first day (Genesis 2:1; Job 38:4-7; Luke 2:13). Twice in the beginning of the book of Job we read of the sons of God presenting themselves before Him at stated times, and Satan also comes with them as being himself a son of God, though a disobedient, fallen, and rebellious one. In Job 38:7 the morning stars are represented as singing together, and the sons of God as shouting for joy, over the creation of our earth. There are, as well, implicit references to these sons of God in a number of other passages. There is no doubt that, in these passages, the meaning also applies exclusively to the angels. A very similar form bar elohim is used in Daniel 3:25, and refers either to an angel or to a theophany. The term “sons of the mighty” (bene elim) is used in Psalm 29:1 and also Psalm 89:6, and again refers to angels.”
http://www.ldolphin.org/unruh/giants.htmlBlessings
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,11:01) Hi Is 1.18,
I agree, but you cannot teach about what is not written.
Who knows?
Yes, but we are not using the citation of “Sons” in Gen 6; Job 1,2,38; Ps 82, 89 to prove anything about Jesus.But you are.
Hi Is1.18,
God calls them sons so they are sons despite differences.
Even in human families there may be different sons.
Christ is the firstborn monogenes Son.
God has a heavenly family.
He has a household.Eph 2
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 3
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
They are Creation. The Logos is Creator. The “differences” are not insignificant, they are infinite.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,12:29) Not only the Creator of “all things”, but also the Sustainer – 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3
Hi Isaiah 1:18:It is good that we can agree on some things which means we are making progress in coming into unity, but my understanding is that God created all things by the Logos, and not that the Logos created all things.
Hebrews 1
1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE(GOD) MADE THE WORLDS;And Hebrews 1:10 can only must only mean that Jesus laid the foundations of the earth in this sense.
God Bless
To me John 1:3, Col 1:16 and Heb 1:2 show that the prehuman Jesus was involved in Creation, and Heb 1:10 is an expansion of that concept. In the context of the Chapter it unequivocally shows that Yeshua was the literal Creator, HE laid the foundations of the Earth, the Heavens are the works of HIS hands. Remember, this verse, according to the writer of Hebrews, is an address by the Father to the Son (refer the beginning of v 8). Another passage about Yeshua's involvement in Creation, which all too often gets overlooked, is this one. Read it carefully:
Hebrews 3:1-6
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Here the glory of Moses and the Jesus are contrasted using the overtly Creation-themed analogy of the builder (Jesus) and the building (Moses). In one breath the writer of Hebrews writes that the builder of the house is Jesus Christ, and in the very next states that He that built all things is God. The clear inference is that the pre-incarnate Jesus is the God who created “all things”, including Moses. The NT writers had no hesitation attributing the exclusively divine prerogative of “Creator” to the Logos. This passage strongly supports the VERY high Christology evident in the first chapter of Hebrews. It also strongly refutes the notion that Jesus was/is just an exalted man, and no more.
Q) To what extent is Jesus greater than Moses?
A) To the extent that the builder is greater than the building!
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