Preexistence

Participant

Quote (martian @ July 17 2010,00:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,15:40)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:50)

You are changing the scriptures yourself. There is not one scripture that says he sent his already grown son.

Hi Martian,

The point is that the landowner in the parable was not said to have begotten a son and THEN sent him. It just says he sent his son. We can assume the son was grown in the parable or the landowner would have been foolish to send a child or infant, right?

And we know this parable is a parallel to God and His Son, right?

mike

So your doctrine is based on assumptions?
Just exactly how did Mary have a full grown son come out of her womb?
Are thee not scriptures that state a “child” is born? what about the ones that say Christ was 12 years old. I that full grown?
If he was full grown why did he have to grow in stature before man and God?
This doctrine is so silly it should be clasisfied with Christ being the preexistent Elvis and planted by the Green men from mars.

Come on man – You are not even being rational.

To all! No His doctrine is of God and not of Men, you are ignoring
Scriptures. I agree with Mike a 100%. He was the firstborn of all creation and He was the firstborn of the death. What is so funny is that most believe that He is the firstborn of the death, yet fall over that He also was the firstborn of all creation. Through Him all was created. He came down from Heaven, to do the will of His Father. How much plainer can it get…… Like Mike I ask you also why, what is the purpose of not believing in those Scriptures??? How else would you interpret those Scriptures.???…. Marty is to chicken to go on face to face debate with me….. Besides Martian is there anyone else who would?? Take one Scripture at the time.??? Peace and Love to all of You, Irene

July 16, 2010 at 10:12 pm#204305

Participant

Irene,
I am waiting for an answer to my questions. Before I debate you one on one I need to know how you interpret scripture. What is your formula or what principles do you use to interpret. How do you come to your conclusions. That is why I choose the subject of Baptism. I know that something changed your mind. No where in scripture is the term immersion used. I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that it ws the right way.

July 16, 2010 at 10:14 pm#204306

942767

Participant

Hi All including you Mrs:

My understanding is that Jesus did not Pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world from the virgin Mary. He was foreordained.

Let me try to explain why I believe this:

1John 1 states:

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1 John 1

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you thateternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

What was with the Father? This verse of scripture says that Eternal life was with the Father.

In John 6:

Jesus states:

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John 6:31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Jesus said that it is the Father that gives us the true bread of heaven.

Hebrews 1 states:

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Hebrews 1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

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2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (King James Version)

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And so, we see from these scriptures that God our Father was in Christ speaking to humanity through him and doing the works through him.

John 14 states:

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John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And so, again we see that it was the Father doing the works through Jesus.

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In John 6 Jesus has said that he came down from heaven, and explains to the the disciples who remained with him what he meant by his sayings:

57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so, we see that Jesus was speaking of the Words that he was speaking to humanity coming down from heaven and giving life to the world, and we have already seen that it was the Father that was speaking to humanity through him, and it was the Father that he was obeying.

Hebrews 10 states:

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# Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

And Jesus says a body has thou prepared “Me”, and so what is he speaking of here? A person is defined by what he does.

And to go back to John 14, he states that when we have seen “him” we have seen the Father through the works that he has done in obedience to him.

And so, John 1ff states: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 Peter states:

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17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 16, 2010 at 10:56 pm#204308

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Arnold @ July 17 2010,11:51)

Quote (martian @ July 17 2010,00:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,15:40)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:50)

You are changing the scriptures yourself. There is not one scripture that says he sent his already grown son.

Hi Martian,

And we know this parable is a parallel to God and His Son, right?

mike

Come on man – You are not even being rational.

who are the “you”?
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you

John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

and now who are the “US”

thateternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us

if you can answer those question you may understand something what you did not mention.

Pierre

July 16, 2010 at 11:43 pm#204316

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All……….That eternal was with the Father because it is the Father. and It fills all thing including Jesus and all who exist and have Life because the Father is the Father of LIFE in all his creation. IT IS THE LIFE OF IT'S CREATION. God in all and through all. If God were to extract his Spirit you would instantly parish and die. We are only alive because the Spirit is the life (IN) Us. IMO

But back to the subject Jesus did not preexist his berth here on earth, he was only FOREORDAINED by the plane and will of God. He was manifested (brought) into existence at his berth as Peter explained. IMO

peace and love to you all………………………..gene

July 17, 2010 at 1:01 am#204326

Participant

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:53)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,11:15)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,07:36)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31)

Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.

Martian! As a Baby I was sprinkled into the Catholic Church. When my Mother married again, my Stepfather and Mother never attended Church, so i did not either. When I married Georg He was a strong Catholic and we then went on a regular basis. In 1984 He was watching Mr. Armstrong and to make a long story short, God called us out of the Catholic Church. There we both were Baptized according to Scripture. The first day after our Baptism was an amazing day….. God's Holy Spirit told me over and over again what I was doing wrong. Since then the W.W.Church of God has gone back to believing in the trinity etc. We stopped going and have been staying Home since then. God has opened our minds to so many truths since that day in 1994…… The preexisting is one of them. Georg used to let the J.W.into our Home and one of them told my Husband about John 1:1. At first we said Oh, no way…. But God did not leave us in that way….. Maybe you too will see it one day…. We have several Bibles and a Strong's Concordance that is helpful….
We don't believe in a trinity, even though some will put those two doctrines together. But one does not have to do with the other…. What also has helped when we were in the W.W.Church of God we kept all of God's Holy Days, listed in Lev. 23 We used love to go on the Feast of Tabernacle. In spite of what some think of Mr. Armstrong, He was a good man and the organization taught us how to study the Bible. In the Catholic Church we never did….. We had a Catholic Bible and I did once read in it, but could not understand it. Without God's Holy Spirit there is no way….. I also learned that I cannot call anyone. God does the calling out….. I tried with our Son…..
Peace and Love to you, Irene

that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were re baptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?

Martian! It is because Scriptures tell us so. Seeing first had how it affected me, I am forever thankful to the Church that they encouraged us to do so….. The Catholic way is not according to Scriptures…. Irene

How do you know the scripture says to immerse? that word is not in scripture. Dod you are your pastor study the Greek word in the original language?

O.K. When I am wrong I will say so, in this instance about Baptism I was wrong. Even so Baptism was done at Jesus time by immersion under water. John Baptized people in the River. Why would He do that if only Sprinkling was the same way…. He could have done that at His House, but He choose the River…. What I said about my Baptism is so. The day after was amazing…. Baptism is done by immersion because you bury the old and come up as a New Person….
And that is what I experienced…Sorry that I went of the subject….Also we don't go to any Church so I do not have a Pastor…..But at that time of our Baptism we had a Minister and He to stressed that you should be completely under water. In fact whenever some one's foot did not go all the way under ,He would do it again…..And what He did also differently then other Pastors are doing, He lay-ed Hands on each one of us to receive the Holy Spirit….even so I believe saying :”In name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit.” would be the same way……..Irene

July 17, 2010 at 1:10 pm#204475

Participant

Quote (Arnold @ July 17 2010,12:01)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:53)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,11:15)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,07:36)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31)

Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.

that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were re baptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?

How do you know the scripture says to immerse? that word is not in scripture. Dod you are your pastor study the Greek word in the original language?

If I understand you correctly. You read various scriptures that mentioned having water enough to immerse. Did your pastor mention that the word Baptism means to submerge?
The one thing I wonder about is the reference to just doing something because your minister said it was proper. I understand that at the time you might have been ignorant of many things because of the Catholic Church but did you not require more proof then just a man's say so?

July 17, 2010 at 1:24 pm#204477

Participant

After much study, I have come to the conclusion that we should all hang ourselves. Look at the directives in scripture.

Matthew 27:5 Then he went away and hanged himself. 

Galatians 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

John 13:28 ”What you are about to do, do quickly

July 17, 2010 at 3:56 pm#204501

Participant

Quote (martian @ July 18 2010,00:10)

Quote (Arnold @ July 17 2010,12:01)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:53)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,11:15)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,07:36)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31)

Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.

that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were re baptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?

How do you know the scripture says to immerse? that word is not in scripture. Dod you are your pastor study the Greek word in the original language?

Martian! Whatever you think one should do at a particular time is up to that Parson and not someone else. If you do criticize that is judging. And we should not do so…. Again I feel and felt at the time that immersion of the water Baptism is something that I feel is right. if you don't that is up to you and not I. I became a new person and I know that I did. That is the difference between the Catholic Church and any other Church. Also how can a Baby know what is going on. They Baptize Babies…. And I believe that they do that in order to keep them in the Church. They also have what is called the Mortal Sin. If you do not attend Sunday Mass you have commited a Mortal Sin and will go to Hell if you don't repent of that Sin. Also going to a Priest to have Sin forgiven is a lot of bull. Only God can forgive Sin……..Now I have to ask you what Church do you go to?? Is it Catholic Church?? Look this is the last time I am going to say something about this, because we are going of the subject again……Also you seem not to understand that we were Baptized in the W.W.Church of God the right wau I feel, and not the Catholic Church….. They have Priests and they call them Father…We did not need any man's proof, we finally started reading the Bible there….. Have said that all before……..Irene

July 17, 2010 at 4:27 pm#204504

Participant

Quote (Arnold @ July 18 2010,02:56)

Quote (martian @ July 18 2010,00:10)

Quote (Arnold @ July 17 2010,12:01)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:53)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,11:15)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,07:36)

Quote (Arnold @ July 16 2010,06:40)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,01:31)

Does anyone know what kind of church Irene attends. I am curious if she was sprinkled or immersed at baptism.

that is a sweet testimony. May I ask why you were re baptized by immersion? Did someone just tell you to do it or did they show you the actual meaning of the Greek word for Baptism?

How do you know the scripture says to immerse? that word is not in scripture. Dod you are your pastor study the Greek word in the original language?

I have already said that I believe in immersion. I was baptized myself in that manner 45 years ago. I do not attend the Catholic Abomination church. I have not been to a church in some time because of health issues keeping me at home. When I did go it was to a non-denominational full gospel church. Yo
u are missing my point completely. What I need to know is how you came to that conclusion of immersion.
You say you want to debate me. In any debate there are certain rules to follow. If we are going to discuss the selling points of various doctrines and use the Bible as proof then we must agree on a basic set of rules for understanding the Bible.
I am trying to understand your study processes so I can see if we can agree on a basic set of interpretation process. Many many people read the Bible and have no clue what it means. This is precisely why we have so many doctrines around. Every one interprets scripture according to their own processes. Some of these processes are honest and worthwhile and some or useless and lead to deception or at least error. Perhaps I should just ask some questions of you. That might give me a clue.
Do you believe something on the basis of how you feel?
Do you believe something because a pastor told you so?
Do you believe a English translation of the Bible because some translator told you he was right?
Do you believe any English translation is without flaw or can completely explain the concepts written in another language and culture some two to five thousand years ago?
Do you believe a verse because you have studied the Hebrew or Geek concepts behind the verse?
Do you understand a verse based on the context (both immediate and in it's entirety) of that verse.
Do you come to understand a word in scripture because you have studied the word in the original language and considered the culture in which it was written?
Do you believe an interpretation because it fits within the overall plan of God for mankind?
Do you believe the interpretation of a verse because it builds hope in your heart that you can become like christ?
Do you believe in an interpretation because it makes Christ path more clear to follow?

These are the questions I need answered. I just want to know why you believe as you do. What was it that has convinced you that you are right? I chose the subject of baptism because you obviously had a change of heart on the matter. I want to know what prompted that change of heart. If it was simply a leading of God's Spirit then that is fine. If it was a scriptural proof that convinced then tell me how it was proven to you. If it was simply trusting a pastor to do it that is fine too.

July 17, 2010 at 4:40 pm#204506

Blocked

Quote (martian @ July 17 2010,00:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2010,15:40)

Quote (martian @ July 16 2010,11:50)

You are changing the scriptures yourself. There is not one scripture that says he sent his already grown son.

Hi Martian,

And we know this parable is a parallel to God and His Son, right?

mike

Come on man – You are not even being rational.

Think hard Martian,

1. Was the parable of the tenants about God, His servants and His Son?

Yes or No.

mike

July 17, 2010 at 4:43 pm#204509

Blocked

Quote (martian @ July 17 2010,09:12)

Hi Marty,

IMO, it doesn't matter how someone interprets scripture BEFORE the debate. That's what the debate will uncover – how one interprets them and if that interpretation is the most reasonable compared to the other scriptures.

mike

July 17, 2010 at 4:50 pm#204511

Blocked

Hi Marty,

You said, “WHAT was with the Father?” The question is “WHO was with the Father”.

And true it is the Father who GIVES the bread of life, but Jesus IS THAT BREAD.

One scripture at a time, then we can get somewhere.

Just do the debate with Irene so we can end this run around.

mike

July 17, 2010 at 4:56 pm#204515

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2010,03:43)

Quote (martian @ July 17 2010,09:12)

Hi Marty,

mike

You are calling me “Marty” Do you mean Martian?

Either way I will answer the post.
A standard of scripture interpretation must be established before any honest debate can happen. Otherwise it become one opinion against another and nothing is accomplished. No sense wasting my time if either one of us is going to ignore simple basic methods of interpretation.
If I say my interpretation is correct because the hair on the back of my neck stood up when I thought of it or that an Owl hooted twice outside my window, how is that proof?
However if my interpretation is based on context, Greek/Hebrew word studies, cultural understanding, and not least of all the fruit of the conclusions then that has to carry much more weight.

July 17, 2010 at 5:37 pm#204542

Blocked

Quote (martian @ July 18 2010,03:56)

A standard of scripture interpretation must be established before any honest debate can happen.

I did confuse you with Marty, sorry.

But your post is basically saying, “We must first DEBATE about how we interpret a scripture before we can DEBATE about how we interpret a scripture.

If I say it means black and you say it mean white, then to try and gain an understanding of why the other thinks what they think is not something to be done BEFORE the debate. It is what the debate itself will show. IMO

mike

ps, please answer my question about the parable of the tenants: Was it a parable about God, His servants and His Son?

July 17, 2010 at 5:47 pm#204545

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2010,04:37)

Quote (martian @ July 18 2010,03:56)

A standard of scripture interpretation must be established before any honest debate can happen.

I did confuse you with Marty, sorry.

But your post is basically saying, “We must first DEBATE about how we interpret a scripture before we can DEBATE about how we interpret a scripture.

mike

ps, please answer my question about the parable of the tenants: Was it a parable about God, His servants and His Son?

What I am trying to say is that I am not going to dig onto a debate with those that have no standards of interpretation but their own opinions and feelings, nor will I waste my time with those that use dishonest principles to debate. I have seen far to much wasted time watching someone post the same scriptures over and over again with no explanation as to how they came to the conclusion that the verse means what they claim.

I honestly do not remember the what the parable of the talents was in reference to. I agree that the parable is about God sending servants and then his son, but I do not know if I agree with what you make of that parable. What do you make of it?

July 17, 2010 at 7:01 pm#204565

Participant

Martian! I did not say that I want to debate with you. What I did say was that anyone else but Martian, i would debate with….. You and I have gone around in circle and i told you that I will not debate with you again, and I even said good bye to you. Remember that?? With all of the nonsense that K?J? and Mike are going through there is no way, that I will ever now debate with just one person…… it is so redicoulous, but sometimes it was funny…. I did not go back, and I have no idea if they ever came to any understanding how to debate…..crazy….one more thing, I do not interprets Scriptures, I read them and take them the way they are written. But in context…….When it says firstborn of all creation, to me it says firstborn of all creation and nothing else……Irene

July 17, 2010 at 7:11 pm#204573

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Irene,
How many verses support your interpretation?
If you cannot find any is it not your own interpretation you are reliant on?

July 18, 2010 at 12:32 am#204614

Participant

Quote (Arnold @ July 18 2010,06:01)

? With all of the nonsense that K?J? and Mike are going through there is no way, that I will ever now debate with just one person…… it is so redicoulous, but sometimes it was funny…. I did not go back, and I have no idea if they ever came to any understanding how to debate…..crazy….one more thing, I do not interprets Scriptures, I read them and take them the way they are written. But in context…….When it says firstborn of all creation, to me it says firstborn of all creation and nothing else……Irene

That in itself is an interpretation. You read a verse and form a conclusion on what it means. You read “firstborn of all creation” and interpret that to mean Christ existed in some form prior to the creation of the world. This is an opinion and not a fact just because you believe it. (and posting the same scriptures over and over is not proof either.) You have no proof other then your own opinion. That is not interpreting the scripture in any honest way. My question to you is have you exhausted all avenues of research into the subject to see if your conclusions are right?
You read an English translation done by some man 1600 years after the fact and assume he got it right.
You assume that the meaning of “firstborn” is the same now as it was 2000 years ago in a completely different country and culture. You do the same with he word “creation.”
You have provided no word studies on the important words in the verse.
You have done no research into the culture to see if it has bearing on the verse.
When others on here have pointed out these flaws in your argument you have just posted the same scriptures over and over in response. You have not even considered anything outside of your own opinion.

You say you consider the verses within context but that has not proven to be the case.
Myself and others have posted on several occasions that the concept of “firstborn” in scripture is not one of time but one of assignment by the Father. That many times the firstborn has given away his position (just like the first Adam) and a younger (chronological) brother (Christ the second Adam) was named the firstborn and given the birthright and the double portion by their mutual Father.
I have posted that among the Hebrew writers the concept of creation is far different then what we of the Greek thinking Western world believe. The ancient Hebrew mind does not think in terms of creating something out of nothing. They do not think in step logic or chronological order. They think in block logic and list events together by virtue of their function and compatibility not by their date of appearance. If you could ask an ancient Hebrew (including Hebrews of the biblical times) What creation means they would reply it means a filling up or a bringing to fulfillment, fruition or maturity. It would be used to describe the fattening of cattle for the slaughter or the ripening of wheat for the harvest. In this Christ was appointed the firstborn to come to completion. The first to be ready for the harvest. Adam would have been the first but he failed to come to fruition or maturity.
These things are not opinions but are actual facts derived from the study of the Hebrew culture from which the bible was written. The NT was never to be understood outside of the culture of the Hebrew people including the historical and cultural truths of the OT.
Unless and until you are willing to study beyond your personal opinion, you will be greatly subject to error.
At one time you believed or at least practiced the Catholic Faith. I have to assume this was because “in your opinion” it was right. Then someone came along with a few scriptures or the Spirit of God convicted you with a 2×4 to get you unstuck out of your opinion. Now you are entrenched in another belief with no proof outside of your own opinion. I suspect that someone you trusted told you to believe in a preexistent Christ and you set your will on it because you knew no better. Unfortunately you seem to have figured that you do not need to be sure for yourself. Your opinion is good enough for you.
In a sight like this everyone assumes the role of teacher and fancies themselves to have the truth and that they have a need to convince others of that truth. Unfortunately for you there are those that have gone beyond their own opinions to actually study the word. Study it in culture, in overall context, in original languages and inside of the overall plan of God. Your opinion will not cut it though I defend your right to publish that opinion. Do not expect anyone to change their beliefs based on your years as a saint or on your opinion.
If you are here just for the entertainment you get from debate then have at it. I know it has often been that for me. In many ways you and I are very much alike. One of my mentors jokes with me that in the beginning he deforested half of Washington State making clubs to knock my head and get my attention and knock me out of my silliness.
I hope I have softened some since then.
I hope and pray that God will do what ever is necessary to convince you that it takes more then your opinion to understand scripture. It takes understanding from more reference material and a willingness to lay down whatever doctrine/opinion is in our way to find truth.

July 18, 2010 at 12:45 am#204618