Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 20 2010,03:19)

JESUS the MAN, who shed his blood for us IS the express image of his Father

And don't forget that he being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!

So he existed in the form of God and became a man. Interestingly enough the same is said of the Word.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. He is also dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

So it is up to you guys whether you accept this as it is stated or whether you decide to wiggle out of it by concluding the opposite meaning by applying your filters of bias.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2010,10:19)

Here we are taught that Jesus was made like his brother human beings. So why do you conclude he was made different than other human beings?

Yes he became flesh just like us. He became one of us. He became human. Of course you also need to include that he  being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!

So yes he became like us, but he existed in the form of God (with God's nature) before existing in the form of man. He made himself nothing and became a servant. So yes he became like us in every way, even lower than the angels like us.

So Jesus sacrifice on a cross was not the only sacrifice. He also became nothing for us. He emptied himself and became lower than the angels. All for us.

Your Jesus places him as no different to one of us, and hence no reason why he could die for humans and why another couldn;t do what he did. The true Jesus existed in the form of God and emptied himself and took on flesh as a man. He was sent of the Father into this world and he not only died, but he was humbled too.

He even learned obedience through these experiences.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2010,10:19)

On the other hand the title Son of God could mean Jesus is a deity except for the fact there is only one Deity and so I conclude it is talking about his spiritual nature.

I am not sure that son of God means that he was divine, more that he was begotten of God. The understanding that he had God's nature comes from other scriptures. He existed in the form of God and became lower than the angels (as a man in flesh like us).

I believe as is required, that he came in the flesh. Some believe that he is the flesh. But flesh is a nature or form. It is not the soul or identity of a person.

Even we can partake of divine nature, so it is not a stretch at all to believe that he existed in the form of God and then came in the form of man. That is what the scriptures say and it is not a hard thing to accept.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,19:34)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2010,10:19) On the other hand the title Son of God could mean Jesus is a deity except for the fact there is only one Deity and so I conclude it is talking about his spiritual nature. I am not sure that son of God means that he was divine, more that he was begotten of God. The understanding that he had God's nature comes from other scriptures. He existed in the form of God and became lower than the angels (as a man in flesh like us). I believe as is required, that he came in the flesh. Some believe that he is the flesh. But flesh is a nature or form. It is not the soul or identity of a person. Even we can partake of divine nature, so it is not a stretch at all to believe that he existed in the form of God and then came in the form of man. That is what the scriptures say and it is not a hard thing to accept.

t8  You are absolutely right, but are they going to except this easy way to me that Jesus was not only a mere man, but was first like God in Spirit.  He came forth from God it says in Proverbs 8:25…Before the Hills, I was brought forth.  He was the master craftsman in verse 30, but this too it is Wisdom.  I just can't buy that, because God had Wisdom always and it did not have to be born yet.  That to me makes no sense at all.  
And all the other Scriptures that plainly explains that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.  And even by Jesus own word in John 17:5 it does not make any difference what you put in front of them.  Jesus did not emptied Himself according to them.  Firstborn before the world was.  Yet Jodi says completely something else when She explained firstborn of all creation and before the world was.  I just can't understand that.  Why?
Peace and Love Irene

[terraricca]

Jodi

wich day you answering me

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,14:34)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2010,10:19) On the other hand the title Son of God could mean Jesus is a deity except for the fact there is only one Deity and so I conclude it is talking about his spiritual nature. I am not sure that son of God means that he was divine, more that he was begotten of God. The understanding that he had God's nature comes from other scriptures. He existed in the form of God and became lower than the angels (as a man in flesh like us). I believe as is required, that he came in the flesh. Some believe that he is the flesh. But flesh is a nature or form. It is not the soul or identity of a person. Even we can partake of divine nature, so it is not a stretch at all to believe that he existed in the form of God and then came in the form of man. That is what the scriptures say and it is not a hard thing to accept.

What do you mean by “divine”?

Do you mean he is a “deity” or that he is “godly”?

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 20 2010,22:37)

Jodi wich day you answering me

Hi terraricca,

I was hoping to get to your question last night but didn't get to it. So I should have a post up here shortly.

Meanwhile, would you mind answering your own question, I'd like to know what your answer is?

Thanks, Jodi

[terraricca]

Jodi

this is what i think;according to my understanding of the scriptures;Jesus was a normal man grew up normally,his spirit and mind was well aware of what the reason for his birth and being as a man was all about ,doing the will of his heavenly father,(understand that scriptures were made for him)

at baptism in water this was the beginning of is total devotion 100% to his father,from here on ,Jesus is different,because now 'everything he will say or do would have a meaning,he now personified his father,because now all what the father has say by the Prophets will come be accomplish through Jesus.this is why he said' i come to do my fathers will' now the miracles that Jesus so called performed,was not performed by him but for him at his demand ,and this was to accomplish not his will but the will of his father,and those miracles will prove without doubt that he was the Messiah,the one that would come in the name of God ,the God of the nation of Israel.this is the reason why Jesus said 'believe the deeds i do, 'if you do not believe me”

so Jesus the man died as a man and suffert as a man to pay the ransom for us,and he did in deed.

and wen time came to go back to his father victorious of is offering ,he took back his position what was rightfully his the WORD at the right hand of God.

we now live in the final strech of the will of God ,God was in a way always with us by the his vivit scriptures,think about it there are more bible or part of it ,more than there are people on the planet.

God loves us but for the people who do not respond to that love what you think will happen at Christ comming,they would have refuse to accept that free love what is the grace of God.

[Jodi Lee]

Hi terraricca,

Would you mind telling me just what it means, Jesus being “the Word at the right hand of God”?

Thanks, Jodi

[terraricca]

jODI

YOU ASK ME TO SEND YOU MY UNDERSTANDING PRIOR TO YOU ANSWERING MY COMMENT,SO I DO

NOW YOU DO NOT WHAT YOU SAY ,AND ASK ME MORE.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,19:34)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2010,10:19) On the other hand the title Son of God could mean Jesus is a deity except for the fact there is only one Deity and so I conclude it is talking about his spiritual nature. I am not sure that son of God means that he was divine, more that he was begotten of God. The understanding that he had God's nature comes from other scriptures. He existed in the form of God and became lower than the angels (as a man in flesh like us). I believe as is required, that he came in the flesh. Some believe that he is the flesh. But flesh is a nature or form. It is not the soul or identity of a person. Even we can partake of divine nature, so it is not a stretch at all to believe that he existed in the form of God and then came in the form of man. That is what the scriptures say and it is not a hard thing to accept.

t8 Like to say something to this. What is the definition of deity. Is it not that He who has deity cannot die ever? So I believe that Jesus at first did not have it, but once He died for us, His reward is deity, He will never die again. Also that is why I believe so strongly that the Catholic Mass, is such a heavy abomination to God. Would like your understand of deity, much appreciated.
Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2010,03:45)

Jodi this is what i think;according to my understanding of the scriptures;Jesus was a normal man grew up normally,his spirit and mind was well aware of what the reason for his birth and being as a man was all about ,doing the will of his heavenly father,(understand that scriptures were made for him) at baptism in water this was the beginning of is total devotion 100% to his father,from here on ,Jesus is different,because now 'everything he will say or do would have a meaning,he now personified his father,because now all what the father has say by the Prophets will  come  be accomplish through Jesus.this is why he said' i come to do my fathers will' now the miracles that Jesus so called performed,was not performed by him but for him at his demand ,and this was to accomplish not his will but the will of his father,and those miracles will prove without doubt  that he was the Messiah,the one that would come in the name of God ,the God of the nation of Israel.this is the reason why Jesus said 'believe the deeds i do, 'if you do not believe me” so Jesus the man died as a man and suffert as a man to pay the ransom for us,and he did in deed. and wen time came to go back to his father victorious of is offering ,he took back his position what was rightfully his the WORD at the right hand of God. we now live in the final strech of the will of God ,God was in a way always with us by the his vivit scriptures,think about it there are more bible or part of it ,more than there are people on the planet. God loves us but for the people who do not respond to that love what you think will happen at Christ comming,they would have refuse to accept that free love what is the grace of God.

Seems like I agree with you up until the “and wen time came to go back to his father victorious of is offering ,he took back his position what was rightfully his the WORD at the right hand of God.”

When Jesus was on earth did he remember his previous life in immortality?

When you say Jesus went back, what was he when he went back to the Father? No longer a man?

When you say “victorious of his offering” are you speaking of the offering of a pre-existant creature coming down to be a human and die?…..or are you speaking of a man offering himself for his brethren?

Why does scripture say that Jesus Christ was SENT, with no mention that it was actually an immortal creature who was sent to become Jesus Christ?

If Jesus was a normal man who grew up normally, what part of him then do you consider to be the pre-existent spirit that previously sat at the right hand of God?

Thanks, Jodi

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 21 2010,04:35)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2010,03:45) Jodi this is what i think;according to my understanding of the scriptures;Jesus was a normal man grew up normally,his spirit and mind was well aware of what the reason for his birth and being as a man was all about ,doing the will of his heavenly father,(understand that scriptures were made for him) at baptism in water this was the beginning of is total devotion 100% to his father,from here on ,Jesus is different,because now 'everything he will say or do would have a meaning,he now personified his father,because now all what the father has say by the Prophets will  come  be accomplish through Jesus.this is why he said' i come to do my fathers will' now the miracles that Jesus so called performed,was not performed by him but for him at his demand ,and this was to accomplish not his will but the will of his father,and those miracles will prove without doubt  that he was the Messiah,the one that would come in the name of God ,the God of the nation of Israel.this is the reason why Jesus said 'believe the deeds i do, 'if you do not believe me” so Jesus the man died as a man and suffert as a man to pay the ransom for us,and he did in deed. and wen time came to go back to his father victorious of is offering ,he took back his position what was rightfully his the WORD at the right hand of God. we now live in the final strech of the will of God ,God was in a way always with us by the his vivit scriptures,think about it there are more bible or part of it ,more than there are people on the planet. God loves us but for the people who do not respond to that love what you think will happen at Christ comming,they would have refuse to accept that free love what is the grace of God. Seems like I agree with you up until the “and wen time came to go back to his father victorious of is offering ,he took back his position what was rightfully his the WORD at the right hand of God.” When Jesus was on earth did he remember his previous life in immortality? When you say Jesus went back, what was he when he went back to the Father? No longer a man? When you say “victorious of his offering” are you speaking of the offering of a pre-existant creature coming down to be a human and die?…..or are you speaking of a man offering himself for his brethren? Why does scripture say that Jesus Christ was SENT, with no mention that it was actually an immortal creature who was sent to become Jesus Christ? If Jesus was a normal man who grew up normally, what part of him then do you consider to be the pre-existent spirit that previously sat at the right hand of God? Thanks,   Jodi

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2010,04:17)

jODI YOU ASK ME TO SEND YOU MY UNDERSTANDING PRIOR TO YOU ANSWERING MY COMMENT,SO I DO NOW YOU DO NOT WHAT YOU SAY ,AND ASK ME MORE.

Good Grief a little impatient are we?

I have been reading through a series of scriptures that I wanted to finish before I posted so I would be clear in my own mind on a few things. This series of scriptures totals over 400 and includes at times reading entire chapters.

Meantime I have been cooking waffles for my kids and then giving them baths, as well as keeping our puppy beagle from eating all the kids toys. My husband is out of town, and as well he has been asking me to take care of some business he is doing on a forum.

Those questions came easily so I wanted to get them out there. Plus it might help me in giving you a post that does not waist our time.

I didn't realize you are on the seat of your pants waiting for my response on this matter, sorry I am taking so long.

[terraricca]

jODI

UNLESS YOU MAKING BELGIUM WAFFLES I WILL NOT COME OVER FOR A BIT;

US FOR THE WAITHING TIME COULD TAKE ALL THE TIME YOU WANT ,WEN YOU READY IT IS OK FOR ME.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2010,03:45)

Jodi this is what i think;according to my understanding of the scriptures;Jesus was a normal man grew up normally,his spirit and mind was well aware of what the reason for his birth and being as a man was all about ,doing the will of his heavenly father,(understand that scriptures were made for him) at baptism in water this was the beginning of is total devotion 100% to his father,from here on ,Jesus is different,because now 'everything he will say or do would have a meaning,he now personified his father,because now all what the father has say by the Prophets will  come  be accomplish through Jesus.this is why he said' i come to do my fathers will' now the miracles that Jesus so called performed,was not performed by him but for him at his demand ,and this was to accomplish not his will but the will of his father,and those miracles will prove without doubt  that he was the Messiah,the one that would come in the name of God ,the God of the nation of Israel.this is the reason why Jesus said 'believe the deeds i do, 'if you do not believe me” so Jesus the man died as a man and suffert as a man to pay the ransom for us,and he did in deed.

terraricca……….This is right , the rest of what you wrote is wrong IMO. Jesus was sent out into the World to Preach the GOSPEL (AFTER) he was Baptized in the Jordan , He then became a SON OF GOD., and was commissioned to go out into the world. This had nothing to do with any Preexistence Being What so ever. Jesus only existed before His berth in the F ordained PLAN of GOD. As PERTER SAID ” for he was foreordained (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) (brought into existence) in OUR TIME. Don;t you think Peter would have Known if Jesus Preexisted as some kind of Being before as well as the other Apostles , why no mention of His Preexistence in Scriptures. Think about it. Ask your self what Purpose would it serve to think GOD took a Preexistence being who walked perfectly and Morphed Him secretly in to a man and this being walked perfectly on the earth, What would that prove to US? Nothing He would NOT Have Been (EXACTLY IDENTICAL TO US) It would be a LIE for GOD to do that to US, a Trick to tell us we can be exactly like Him in every way. People who preach the Doctrine of PREEXISTENCE do as Much damage as those who PREACH the DOCTRINE of the TRINITY. Both Doctrine are LIES., and woke to destory the words and work of our (ONE) GOD. If we can not identify with Jesus as exactly like we are , we simply don't identify with Him at all, no matter what we say we will alway keep him separate from us those beliefs. IMO

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 20 2010,14:18)

He then became a SON OF GOD.,

Gene

Really Then how did he know the Father as his Father when he was 12 years old?

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……….God is the FATHER of All of US, Pray this way “OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.”…….>. What part of that don't you understand.

[kerwin]

T8 wrote:

Quote

Your Jesus places him as no different to one of us, and hence no reason why he could die for humans and why another couldn’t do what he did.

That is not correct.   Scripture tells us the wages of sin is death and yet Jesus did not sin and thus did not deserve death.   His death on the cross thus proved that prince of this world is unjust and thus condemned him.

John 16:7-11(KJV) reads:

Quote

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The difference between Jesus and every other human is that Jesus had the Holy Spirit while the rest of mankind had only the spirit of the world since the Comforter was not sent until after Jesus died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven.

1 Corinthians 2:12(KJV) reads:

Quote

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

We receive and live by the Spirit of God through obeying all that Jesus teaches us.  

Jesus is equivalent to Mosses as regards how Mosses led the Hebrews out of Egypt even though Mosses is subject to Jesus just as any other believer.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19(KJV) reads:

Quote

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Why did God choose Jesus of every other human being?  The answer is God has “compassion on who he has compassion and mercy on who he has mercy“.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 20 2010,14:29)

WJ……….God is the FATHER of All of US, Pray this way “OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.”…….>. What part of that don't you understand.

Gene

Really! Then why did Jesus say the Devil was their Father!

How can God be the Father of someone who is not his son?

Where is the scripture for this? What does children of the “Wicked One” mean? Matt 13:38

WJ

[Author]

Posts