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He did exist, but he did not exist as a sentient person. He was foreordained, and was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary at the specified time of God's choosing.
None of the scriptures that you have posted say that he pre-existed as a sentient person. The scriptures that you posted that pertain to Jesus in the OT were prophetic. Jesus is the “basis for the whole of God's creation”, but he himself is not the creator.
This is what the scripture states:
Quote Galatians 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Quote John 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Quote 1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Quote 1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Eternal life which was with the Father “was manifested” in the person of Jesus God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ in God's appointed time.
There is no scripture that states that he existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. He did exist in the heart of the Father, the scripture states, “that eternal life was with the Father”, and the scripture states that “all things were made by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made”. He is God's heir of all that God has made. He is not the creator, otherwise the scripture would state that “he made all things for himself”. It doesn't because he is not the creator but “is the basis for the whole of God's creation”, and in him God's plan for this world and for humanity culminates and is fulfilled through him.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote
He did exist, but he did not exist as a sentient person. He was foreordained, and was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary at the specified time of God's choosing.None of the scriptures that you have posted say that he pre-existed as a sentient person. The scriptures that you posted that pertain to Jesus in the OT were prophetic. Jesus is the “basis for the whole of God's creation”, but he himself is not the creator.
Marty, all this is true. However that has nothing to do with that Jesus preexisted and is the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Marty, why would you want to ignore these Scriptures?
They are plainly written…. And there are more then these…. have you looked at t8 article? He explains it nicely….Peace Irene
Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,13:21) Quote
He did exist, but he did not exist as a sentient person. He was foreordained, and was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary at the specified time of God's choosing.None of the scriptures that you have posted say that he pre-existed as a sentient person. The scriptures that you posted that pertain to Jesus in the OT were prophetic. Jesus is the “basis for the whole of God's creation”, but he himself is not the creator.
Marty, all this is true. However that has nothing to do with that Jesus preexisted and is the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Marty, why would you want to ignore these Scriptures?
They are plainly written…. And there are more then these…. have you looked at t8 article? He explains it nicely….Peace Irene
Hi Mrs:I am not ignoring the scripture. Jesus is the first human being to ever be born of God, and the first to be conformed to God's image through perfect obedience to God's Word, and he is the firstborn again from the dead, and we who have been born again are being conformed to his image as we learn to apply his Word in our daily lives, and by the blood that he shed for us when we fall short of perfect obedience.
And the scripture that you quoted from Romans states:
Quote Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.There is no scripture that you quoted that states that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 20 2011,20:12) He did exist, but he did not exist as a sentient person.
Well, it was a sentient person who said he existed before Abraham, right? Did the sentient person Jesus lie to the Jews when he said “Before Abraham, I existed”?See Marty? Jesus didn't say “the thought of me in the Father's heart” existed, did he? Why would you claim that's what he meant if that's clearly not what he said?
Quote
There is no scripture that you quoted that states that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.Marty, since Jesus is the firstborn of ALL creation, then He was a sentient person…Are you reading those Scriptures right to say what you did?
Or don't you know what a firstborn is?Marty, Jesus also said, that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father that send Him. Are you going to say that is not true either?
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Peace Irene
All
I am not sure but this scripture hit me ;Jn 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
John is very trust worthy
Pierre
Brilliant Pierre!
I added it to our list on page 1. The “returning to” is the key. If Jesus “returned to” God as a sentient person, then it is clear that the “from God” also refers to him as a sentient person.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2011,19:11) Brilliant Pierre! I added it to our list on page 1. The “returning to” is the key. If Jesus “returned to” God as a sentient person, then it is clear that the “from God” also refers to him as a sentient person.
peace and love,
mike
Hi MikeI know you would like that one bring to your attention
Pierre
Yeah, I like that one.
We KNOW that he returned TO the actual PERSON of God in heaven, so the way that it's worded makes it clear that he also came FROM the actual PERSON of God in heaven. You did good, give yourself a pat on the back……….or a high five or something.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2011,19:18) Yeah, I like that one. We KNOW that he returned TO the actual PERSON of God in heaven, so the way that it's worded makes it clear that he also came FROM the actual PERSON of God in heaven. You did good, give yourself a pat on the back……….or a high five or something.
Mike Christian love
Pierre
From Pierre:
John 20:17 NIV
17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”Mike………..Sorry but that is a wrong translation again if you look had enough you can find any trinitarians or preexistence altered Bible that changes the original text to fit your dogmas if you try hard enough. Why don't you check out the original Greek Mike and see if that is the correct translation seem the original King James disagree with this. Grabbing for straws is hardly a way to prove or post a database anything becasue you cane find anything you want to by just jumping from one trinitarian, preexistent bible translation to another and soon you will have you own bible MIke, We can call it Mike's “MNDB”, Mikes New Database Bible,.
peace and love………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 16 2011,08:47) Mike………..Sorry but that is a wrong translation again if you look had enough you can find any trinitarians or preexistence altered Bible that changes the original text to fit your dogmas if you try hard enough. Why don't you check out the original Greek Mike and see if that is the correct translation seem the original King James disagree with this. Grabbing for straws is hardly a way to prove or post a database anything becasue you cane find anything you want to by just jumping from one trinitarian, preexistent bible translation to another and soon you will have you own bible MIke, We can call it Mike's “MNDB”, Mikes New Database Bible,. peace and love………………………………………….gene
Genedo you believe that Christ came from God ?(descend)
Pierre
Gene,
You are correct. The word is “ascended”, not “returned”.
You could have pointed out my error in a less facetious way however.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2011,22:32) Gene, You are correct. The word is “ascended”, not “returned”.
You could have pointed out my error in a less facetious way however.
MikeI would like gene to answer my question ,because if Christ came down from heaven then it is ok to say return or ascend
because to me when you come down either you ascend to where you where before ,right so return is not an error it means the same thing no?
Pierre
Terricca…………. I understand what you believe Pierre, but looking for different translation to support you beliefs can trip you up, and trying to force text to meet you dogmas can only further serve to deceive yourself as well as others brother. You need to learn to quote the Scriptures accurately Pierre. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2011,15:32) Gene, You are correct. The word is “ascended”, not “returned”.
You could have pointed out my error in a less facetious way however.
Mike……Sorry I did go a little to far with my commit.peace and love…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2011,07:03) Terricca…………. I understand what you believe Pierre, but looking for different translation to support you beliefs can trip you up, and trying to force text to meet you dogmas can only further serve to deceive yourself as well as others brother. You need to learn to quote the Scriptures accurately Pierre. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
geneyou are a man of no respond ,why do you not answer the question ? are you scared to answer ?
Genedo you believe that Christ came from God ?(descend)
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2011,07:03) Terricca…………. I understand what you believe Pierre, but looking for different translation to support you beliefs can trip you up, and trying to force text to meet you dogmas can only further serve to deceive yourself as well as others brother. You need to learn to quote the Scriptures accurately Pierre. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
genewhy do you not prove that ,thats is what i do ?
but you do not so you just bla,bla,bla ,rightPierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 15 2011,22:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2011,22:32) Gene, You are correct. The word is “ascended”, not “returned”.
You could have pointed out my error in a less facetious way however.
MikeI would like gene to answer my question ,because if Christ came down from heaven then it is ok to say return or ascend
because to me when you come down either you ascend to where you where before ,right so return is not an error it means the same thing no?
Pierre
I agree Pierre.Jesus clearly came DOWN from heaven, according to John 6. And he foretold that some of them would see him ASCEND to where he was BEFORE.
So you and the NIV are correct, that the meaning is definitely “RETURNED”.
But Gene is correct that the Greek word is “ASCEND”. I should have checked before posting the scripture as I did.
I don't want to get into the habit of adding or changing words in the scriptures just to “be right”, like some other people frequently do.
peace and love,
mike
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