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Nick,
Discuss it with IS 1:18, or whoever else, I'm tired of saying anything and having my words twisted and then being accused by condeming — that claim to follow YHWH and the true Messiah Yahshua.
Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 13 2005,01:15) Greetings IS 1:18, Yahshua Messiah is indeed worthy of worship, however, I wanted to point out some pertinant facts concerning the JWs ( New World Translation of the New Testament scriptures) which was not translated from the original manuscripts, but was translated from another translation based on thee original manuscripts.
In other words, the N.W.T of the New Testament is a translation from another translation or translated text but about thee original.
In the Appendix of the N.W.T. is references to the ” J sources “, and I might also mention that the ( N.W.T.) according to their own title pages, both the J-17 and J-18 Hebrew versions were produced by THE TRINITARIAN BIBLE SOCIETY, and this Organization is based in London England.
Question to David, Why did the New World Bible Translation Committee choose Hebrew versions produced by a Trinitarian Bible publisher as support for their New World Translation ?
It is also interesting to note that certain Critical verses( 1 Peter 2:3; 1 Peter 3:15 is two examples) in the ( N.W.T.) of the New Testament was altered from the translation original, and there are more texts as well, and certain texts which identifies Yahshua messiah with YHWH was also altered too.
I'm not the only person who knows this concerning the N.W.T., and this can be verified at the address below, and the Author of this site also has a FREE BOOKLET concerning this information on the N.W.T.
The Address is….
http://www.tetragrammaton.org/index.htm
I have more questions to ask David, however, I will wait for him and others to make their replies to your topic.
Hi Eliyah,
Thanks for the link. Yes I agree with your sentiments on the NWT. This website as well as this one have some good information pertaining to that translation.Be well
Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2005,02:48) I realize Eliyah may not like me pointing this out, but his madness is plain to all.
I don't think Eliyah is mad. Actually I think he generally presents a cogent argument. When you get to know him he's a nice guy too.David,
Your not only a liar, however, your also a false accuser as you stated…
Quote Posted: Oct. 13 2005,02:48 ——————————————————————————–
As far as I can tell, we believe exactly what Nick, t8 and you believe on the “nature of Yahshua Messiah.” We believe what the Bible says. If you wish to “dis-prove the JW's own position on the Nature of Yahshua Messiah” I'll just let Nick or t8 or whoever respond, because frankly, I've given up on you a while ago.Or, am I wrong on you Eliyah? Are we to pray to Yahshua Eliyah?
That is after all what this thread is supposed to be about. If you go up and read it, you will find the words: “Prayer to Yahshua.”
Yet, you prefer to randomly pick away. You find some reference in some website and throw it down as quick as you can.
Yes Eliyah, you're on to us. We secretly believe in the trinity. You got us. No. So instead of discussing scripture, or helping Is 1:18 who thinks we should pray to Jesus, I'm here replying to another one of your posts, which I assume like most, no one knows what you're talking about. One can't help but wonder what anything you said has to do with this topic.
If you wanted to prove us wrong legitimately, why don't you go to the official website, see what we actually believe and the many scriptures that go with those beliefs, then show by scripture that those other scriptures are wrong somehow. Instead of the Bible, you search through websites hoping to find some vague reference to anything that might….
Listen, I'm pretty much done with conversing with you, as it is a subject in futility. I should have known after the baal gad thing and your vague reference to the KJ version that proves baal gad=lord god.I realize Eliyah may not like me pointing this out, but his madness is plain to all.
The website that I listed and as I said…
“”””I was not quoting from a website that talks down about the JWs, please read this open letter below.
Click on and read, as a matter of fact they were commending the Witnesses.http://www.tetragrammaton.org/open_letter_jw.htm
“”” Instead of the Bible, you search through websites hoping to find some vague reference to anything that might….
Listen, I'm pretty much done with conversing with you, as it is a subject in futility. I should have known after the baal gad thing and your vague reference to the KJ version that proves baal gad=lord god.Did you not say this? And did you not bring up the baal gad topic again here?
Quote Instead of the Bible, you search through websites hoping to find some vague reference to anything that might….
Listen, I'm pretty much done with conversing with you, as it is a subject in futility. I should have known after the baal gad thing and your vague reference to the KJ version that proves baal gad=lord god.Like I said before, your not only a liar , but your a false accuser too, which you claim that you don't want to converse with me, as you lied on this too, and accused me of being mad, because I quoted from a website that actually commended the JWs, but points out errors in their translation.
Posted: Oct. 13 2005,04:55
——————————————————————————–
I was not quoting from a website that talks down about the JWs, please read this open letter below.http://www.tetragrammaton.org/open_letter_jw.htm
I'm tired of LIARS and FALSE ACCUSERS like you David.
A SUBJECT IN FUTILITY. (Oh well. I get to practice my typing.)
1. Believe me Eliyah, I'm not wanting to converse with you. I certainly didn't lie about that. I don't. There. So that's not a lie. So you are definitely WRONG about that for starters. WRONG! Sometimes we do things we don't enjoy. What I said in the comment above is: “I'm pretty much done conversing with you.” This was not a lie. I am pretty much done conversing with you. So once again, you're WRONG!!!!!
2. Accusing you of being mad was fair in my mind. You often give the appearance of being angry and sometimes say things that make no sence. It was a play on words. I know your friend Is 1:18 who has 'gotten to know you' thinks you're a swell guy. And you probably are. But at least two people besides myself have commented on your outbursts of …. anger. I think saying that your madness is plain to all was a fair comment.
3. I don't understand the main part of your last comment: You quote me saying:
“”” Instead of the Bible, you search through websites hoping to find some vague reference to anything that might….
Listen, I'm pretty much done with conversing with you, as it is a subject in futility. I should have known after the baal gad thing and your vague reference to the KJ version that proves baal gad=lord god.”Then, you say: “Did you not say this? And did you not bring up the baal gad topic again here?”
Then, you quote the exact same thing that you just quoted from me:
“Instead of the Bible, you search through websites hoping to find some vague reference to anything that might….
Listen, I'm pretty much done with conversing with you, as it is a subject in futility. I should have known after the baal gad thing and your vague reference to the KJ version that proves baal gad=lord god.”OK?
Then you say I'm a liar apparently, as far as I can tell, because I said I was done conversing with you. Then, a moment later, you quote me again saying the same thing as though I'm now conversing with you again?
I don't get it.Where did I lie?
If I did lie, one sentence would be enough. Just show the one sentence where I lied. You shouldn't have to try to string things around to prove that I am a liar. Just show where I lied.
I'm not actually sure where you show that I”m a liar in that post. You ACCUSE ME a lot, but don't actually show it.
That's why I often end things pertaining to you by saying something like:
“I'm pretty much done conversing with you,” or 'Your madness is plain to all.'dave
David,
Who brought up the Baal Gad topic here in this post again, as you did TWICE in the other TOPIC of WHO BELIEVES ON THE LAAARD ?
You did, and this makes now 3 times that you have did such in two different forum topics, and I think that proves you to be a liar.
You have also stated more than TWICE that you do not want to converse with me, however, you seem to lie concerning that too.
However, you can accuse( as you did other JWs sites) and play all the games you like, but everytime you post something that is not scriptural, or if you post something from your preferred biased pick and choose verses of the New Testament New World translation, I'm going to point them out.
I'm also going to point out many more of those bias verses from the New world Translation Bible Committee, when they re-translated their New Testament version as compared to its original translations also.
You seem to get angry when your bible is exposed of its preferred altered texts of the N.T..
Laugh,Laugh,
Again, I must be a little slow. Where did I lie? What did I SAY that was a lie?
Who cares how many times I brought up the baal gad topic?
1. An adminstrator tells you to not post unrelated comments in specific topics.
2. So you accuse me of doing the same.
3. I concede that I have done so, but not at all to the extent you have done.And this makes me a liar how?
???Yes, i do get upset when someone decides to defend themself by shifting blame and then screaming over and over and over again: He's a liar, without so much as one sentence that you can poit out that is a lie.
And if you can't find one single sentence anywhere where I said something that was obviously a lie about you, then what does it mean that you keep falsely accusing me of being a liar. It would make you a….
well, you know.
dave.
Once again, you love to say things that have no proof. You put them in BOLD and CAPITAL letters. It all looks great. Not a shred of substance though.Hi david,
We would all appreciate it if he stopped spitting out his dummy and throwing all his toys out of his cot.Quote We would all appreciate it if he stopped spitting out his dummy and throwing all his toys out of his cot. Who is the we Nick ? You?
Satan hates having his toys exposed, and you certainly do love to use them, and slander others charactor with them, however, in actual reality, you have now strike two on your charactor and credibility.
As the true Messiah Yahshua said( not the fake Je'sus), the world will love its own, and if they hated me, then they will hate you.””
And its very evident on this forum who hates me, because they hate His own words that I write to dis-prove them and their pagan toys.
Ha, Ha, Laugh again, HalleluYAH !
Hi eliyah,
Nobody hates you. They just hate your hateful ways. It says on your website;“LOVE ONE ANOTHER”
WHY?
Nick,
It would appear that your the one who ” Hates “, because your all the time accusing me falsely for reproving( 2 Tim.3:16), and what better love does a man have for people that to not let sin come upon his neighbor by proving the truth of scriptures?
You need to get your scriptural definitions straight as I said before.
I told you he was a kid! If you don`t agree with me, i`ll take back my baseball and none of you can play, so there! ppptthhhhhh! I`ll tell on you! My mommy is greater than you are… He`s a kid, a spoiled little kid! If your mommy could see you now, she`d give you a whoppin. Grow up already!
I think you surely need to grow up, because you evidently cannot accept correction and reproof ( 2 Tim.3:16) of scriptures, then all you have left is insultsto throw out.
Ha, ha, Laugh, laugh, laugh.
Believe me, i pity you! I don`t say that with any sarcasm, i really do pity you. You have a social disorder, you should get help from a believing counselor. I sincerely wish you nothing but the best, i really do. I don`t know who you are, if this is a believing board then i ask prayer for this man, Eliyah.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 12 2005,08:25) Hi David, hope things are going well for you. I am going to address your reply piecemeal due to time constraints. Quote ACTS 7:54-60
“Well, at hearing these things they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him. But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” At this they cried out at the top of the voice and put their hands over their ears and rushed upon him with one accord. And after throwing him outside the city, they began casting stones at him. And the witnesses laid down their outer garments at the feet of a young man called Saul. And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].”
(This will be covered below.)Quote ‘But,’ some may ask, ‘does the Bible not report that both the disciple Stephen and the apostle John spoke to Jesus in heaven?’ That is true. These events, however, did not involve prayers, as Stephen and John each saw Jesus in vision and spoke to him directly. (Acts 7:56, 59; Revelation 1:17-19; 22:20) Bear in mind that simply speaking even to God does not in itself constitute a prayer. Adam and Eve spoke to God, offering excuses for their great sin, when He judged them following their sin in Eden. Their talking to him in that way was not a prayer. (Genesis 3:8-19) Hence, it would be incorrect to cite Stephen’s or John’s talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him.
More faulty reasoning from you here David. First, and most obvious, of all in the in the Genesis example YHWH was proximal to A & E, he was literally there walking in the very same garden in which Adam and Eve were hiding. YHWH was present in the garden and therefore could literally talk to them, and vise versa:Genesis 3
8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”So naturally this could never be construed as prayer in the classical sense, they were within speaking distance and therefore were calling to each other. Using this flawed logic you could legitimately argue that YHWH was also praying to A & E. It’s also disappointing that you cynically equate Adam and Eve lying to God with Stephen saying “Lord Jesus receive my spirit” or John’s speaking to Jesus in Revelation, stating: “Hence, it would be incorrect to cite Stephen’s or John’s talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him.” It is easy to see that the argument is nonsense, it is a non sequitur, and also contains an informal fallacy of one that attempts to associate a bad example in the minds of others as evidence that all examples of the practice are erroneous. Neither what Stephen or John said was in fact a lie, so the fact that people lie or have lied in attempts to deceive God really has nothing to do with whether or not one should pray to Jesus. This tactic is called “guilty by association” where the attempt is made to associate a certain bad instance (Adam and Eve’s lie) as having some kind of de facto effect on all such instances (talking to God).
Quote Though some claim that prayer may properly be addressed to others, such as to God’s Son, the evidence is emphatically to the contrary. True, there are rare instances in which words are addressed to Jesus Christ in heaven. Stephen, when about to die, appealed to Jesus, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Ac 7:59) However, the context reveals a circumstance giving basis for this exceptional expression. Stephen at that very time had a vision of “Jesus standing at God’s right hand,” and evidently reacting as if he were in Jesus’ personal presence, he felt free to speak this plea to the one whom he recognized as the head of the Christian congregation. (Ac 7:55, 56; Col 1:18) Similarly, the apostle John, at the conclusion of the Revelation, says, “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” (Re 22:20) But again the context shows that, in a vision (Re 1:10; 4:1, 2), John had been hearing Jesus speak of his future coming and thus John responded with the above expression of his desire for that coming. (Re 22:16, 20) In both cases, that of Stephen and that of John, the situation differs little from that of the conversation John had with a heavenly person in this Revelation vision. (Re 7:13, 14; compare Ac 22:6-22.) There is nothing to indicate that Christian disciples so expressed themselves under other circumstances to Jesus after his ascension to heaven. Thus, the apostle Paul writes: “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—Php 4:6.
So the crux of the issue is: do statements like “Lord Jesus receive my spirit” and “Amen, Come Lord Jesus” actually do constitute prayer. I think that anyone, not blinded by his or her own presuppositions, would answer emphatically “yes”. Notwithstanding the attempt to associate Stephen and John’s statements with Adam and Eve’s lie, these statements made by Stephen and John are, in and of themselves, very reverent and contain the essential elements that constitute prayer. Namely: the spoken/written words are first addressing the being to whom the request is being made to (Yahshua), followed by a request that this being is supposed to be able to carry out or answer.It would be irreverent to “pray” to another human being, or an angel for that matter, to forgive them of their sins against God, because no one less than God has the right to answer such a request. Yet we see no hint in the Acts narrative to suggest Stephens request was in any way blasphemous. And so David, tell me something, why is there some arbitrary rule that says when the request “receive my spirit” is said to Jesus, it is not a prayer, but if the exact same thing were said to the Father, it would normally, without controversy, be called a “prayer”?
Stephen’s request satisfies every criteria for what constitutes a prayer, and his prayer was made directly to Yahshua, a request to receive his spirit, something that is a prerogative of YHWH alone. Only someone with a preconceived notion that brings to the text the a priori proposition “one cannot pray to Jesus” that would reach any other conclusion that which is obvious, to any simple and plain reading of the text.
With regard to John’s speaking to Jesus, I think you need to ask yourself David whether such speech directed to the Father would be considered a “prayer”? Again, it is only the preconceived notion that brings to the text the a priori proposition “one cannot pray to Jesus” that would reach any other conclusion that which is obvious to any simple and plain readi
ng of the text.As an aside, don’t miss the significance of what Stephen said:
Acts 7:59
“And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on [God] and saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'” (Acts 7:59).According to Ecclesiastes 12:7 our spirit returns to Elohim, who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
“Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken…Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. “The Spirit returns to Him Who gave it and Stephen thought it appropriate that his spirit return to Yahshua. Isn’t that interesting.
Be well.
My thanks to my friend Ken for helping me with this portion of the reply.
Hi Is 1.18,
Stephen was already in Christ. He was not praying but presenting himself as a part of the body to the head of that body. His sins were already forgiven by the one who had been given ALL authority by God, including the authority to forgive sin. The Pharisees were the ones who got it wrong about Jesus thinking it meant he was God and not appreciating such authority had been given to Christ by the Father.Mk 2.7f
“.'.He is blaspheming;who can forgive sins but God alone?'…Jesus..said to them
'But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins' he said to the paralytic
'I say to you arise..' “He did not agree he was saying he was God. He did claim and show that he had authority to forgive sins on earth.
That authority had been given to Him
“All authority has been given to me..” he said.
Who do you prefer to believe? Christ or the Pharisees?
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