Poetry

[charity]

You are a child of the Universe, no less than the moon and the stars;
you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no
doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should.
~Max Ehrmann

[charity]

If you can not find the truth right where you are, where else do you
expect to find it? Dogen Belief consists in accepting the affirmations
of the soul; unbelief, denying them.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

~ ~ ~

“I have done my best.” That is about all the philosophy of living one needs.
~Lin Yutang

~ ~ ~

By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest;
Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience,which is the
bitterest.
~Confucius

[theodorej]

Greetings Stu….And I must say your response was measured and diciplined and in defense of your convictions….One must realize that God is not a respecter of men,so to focus on the many acts of violence in the Bible,Koran or any otherbook outlining and describing mans relationship with God is a waste of time….Your point on the Golden Rule is well taken and yes,it does predate the many writings in the Bible,however it does not predate its author…GOD…Please allow me to address Theology…It is the study of God as it relates to man….This is a very broad silibus…given that very few people on this earth truly know God…Alot think they do..( No! I am not one of them ) I spend my time seeking him and in the process I have an opportunity to engage people such as yourself,who I find interesting…The beneficial aspects of our dialog could be far reaching…perhaps you could persuade me that Iam wasting my time or perhaps in the process we both could find God…Either way I win..Interlectually speaking…

[theodorej]

Quote (lineon @ July 08 2008,04:07)

Quote (theodorej @ July 07 2008,14:22) Quote (Stu @ July 07 2008,21:50) Quote (theodorej @ July 07 2008,00:53) Greetings Stu…..The answer to your question is easy….We should worry about ourselves….By ignoring human nature one isolates himself from the obvious good and evil that exists in all of us(Dogs of War)..Nothing will change in this world until man realizes he needs the love and direction that only God can give.(eg.His Government/Kingdom)….Spewing platatudes and cowaring from evil only guarantees its triumph….If Jesus had our nature and not the nature of God,he would bomb pornography,murder,decietfullness,totalartarian governments,theocratic goverments and in conclusion IGNORANCE… This is the black-and-white fantasy world that online proposes but denies – the with us or against us medieval crusade.  You do not have to be christian to know murder and totalitarianist regimes are bad (I think you do have to be Abrahamic to see pornography as evil) but my experience is that if you are christian you have an excuse to remain ignorant of the human nature that gives rise to these things and thereby are in danger of dismissing murder or bad dictatorship as evil instead of trying to prevent it.  Do you execute the murderer and claim the inheritance of a “kingdom not of this world” or should you engage and find understanding of the actual causes? Antiabortionists are just trying to replace one 'evil' with another, presumably they think a lesser one. The christian act of mission to areas of poverty does not come without attempts to convert, in some cases disastrous ones, so examples of genuine attempts by christians to actually understand the human condition are rare.  The world is indeed grey and using black and white to model it has always failed, and has resulted in the evil of religious totalitarianism.   As for the question of needing god, all I will leave you with is a repetition of Christopher Hitchens' question to name one moral act that can be performed by a believer that cannot be done by an atheist, a reminder that rates of teen pregnancy and other percieved social ills are highest where there is strong god-belief, and the fact that in the US the rate of imprisonment of atheists is 0.23% against a general non-believing population of 15+%. Stuart Greetings Stu….I thank you for your response,however,Iam puzzled by your consistant reference to obscure relatively unknown novelists to bring about a conclusive point….Having said that,Iam a person who has studied theology for many years and I have to say that your view of christianity today is not without merit…The fantasy world you discribe that is devoid of any understanding of human nature is a result of bad education…The spirit of true christianity or at least the lessons taught by Jesus are lessons about how to live a peacefull productive existance,the blueprint for this is exemplified in the ten commandments..(not the ten requests). My Abramic viewpoint on pornography is probably shared by any number of learned members of society…It is demeaning and selfserving as well as addictive and leads to various forms of perversity..( you might want to get a hold of Ted Bundies interview Dobson just before his execution).Anti abortionists for the most part believe things but do not truly know why…In my humble opinion,and this is not a christian viewpoint,Any interuption in the natural course of nature has an adverse affect,be it a pregnancy or the prevention of a pregnancy by means of drugs.( you might want to examine the statistics involving women with varios cancers,mostly breast)….I do not claim any moral high ground here nor am I injudgement of you….we just have a diferent outlook toward things…I know why I believe the things I do…perhaps you change my mind…In the final analysis we are all human and in Gods eyes equal…. Hi Theodorej You think as clear       As clear water. My thoughts come out in short sentences. Thanks for the post. Lineon.

Thank you !! Lineon you have made my day…I appreciate it!

[Stu]

Hi again Theodorej

Quote

One must realize that God is not a respecter of men,so to focus on the many acts of violence in the Bible,Koran or any otherbook outlining and describing mans relationship with God is a waste of time….

Then why should any man be a respecter of the Judeo-christian god?

Quote

Your point on the Golden Rule is well taken and yes,it does predate the many writings in the Bible,however it does not predate its author…GOD…

You play your faith trump card. There is evidence that the golden rule (and many other ‘christian values’) existed long before christianity. There is no evidence that there was a god then, or indeed ever. Do you know any christian who plays straight without invoking magic of which we are all ignorant? The only I can think of are deists who follow the most desiccated philosophy of divinity that is just over the fence from atheism.

Quote

Please allow me to address Theology…It is the study of God as it relates to man….This is a very broad silibus…given that very few people on this earth truly know God…Alot think they do..( No! I am not one of them ) I spend my time seeking him and in the process I have an opportunity to engage people such as yourself,who I find interesting…

So if theology is a credible academic discipline, can you tell me what you have learned in your ‘study of god’ that is unquestionably true, a fact that is so well established that it would be perverse to deny it?

Stuart

[theodorej]

Greetings Stu….From a purely academic view and with consideration for life experience I have learned that, with out a doubt that God does in fact exist. His existance is manefest in his creation and the order by which it exists.Science claims the universe was the result of a Bing Bang,after carefull examination of this theory inconjunction with hands on experience,I fail to see that so much order could come from an explosion especially when the very nature of an explosion is disorder…In addition one must consider the complexity of nature and the life it supports..Science holds to the theory of evolution,however the math does not add up and there are no transitional species of human beings to support this theory….My trump card is not faith it is the willingness to learn and in doing so,since you appear to be a person on conviction,I would welcome any effort you might put forward to prove there is no God…Iam a respecter of God,out of fear…Once a person realizes the awesome power of the being that was capable of creating this universe and all that is in it…One will start to understand how insignificant we are and how meaningless our existance is unless we know God….

[Stu]

Hi Theodorej

Quote

His existance is manefest in his creation and the order by which it exists.Science claims the universe was the result of a Bing Bang,after carefull examination of this theory inconjunction with hands on experience,I fail to see that so much order could come from an explosion especially when the very nature of an explosion is disorder…

So your argument is not a disproof of Big Bang theory but ‘I fail to see’.

Quote

In addition one must consider the complexity of nature and the life it supports..Science holds to the theory of evolution,however the math does not add up and there are no transitional species of human beings to support this theory….

Indeed one must consider the complexity of nature and the mechanisms by which it has arisen. You say ‘the maths (we use maths in NZ) does not add up’ yet you are not providing a disproof of the theory of evolution and its consistency and power to explain. You are invoking a replacement non-explanation. Except for species that went to extinction, all things that ever lived were transitional forms. Shall I name some of the ones that were our ‘recent’ ancestors? Homo ergaster, H. habilis, H. erectus and three species of archaic H.sapiens, H. heidelbergensis, H. rhodesiensis and H. antecessor.

Quote

My trump card is not faith it is the willingness to learn and in doing so,since you appear to be a person on conviction,I would welcome any effort you might put forward to prove there is no God..

Thank you for your compliment and I return it in appreciating the careful consideration you show. You will not find me attempting to disprove the existence of god as it is not possible to prove a negative, although others have made a good case that if there is a creator god then it is not the Judeo-christian one as outlined in the bible.

Quote

.Iam a respecter of God,out of fear…Once a person realizes the awesome power of the being that was capable of creating this universe and all that is in it…One will start to understand how insignificant we are and how meaningless our existance is unless we know God….

I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging fear as a prime motivating factor. What is it like to live in constant fear? The people of Zimbabwe fear Robert Mugabe. He does wield substantial power, although granted he does not claim to have created a universe. Should the people worship and respect him?

Quote

From a purely academic view and with consideration for life experience I have learned that, with out a doubt that God does in fact exist.

This statement makes a complete mockery of so much human struggle and endeavour to give the word ‘fact’ its stature. I’m afraid this clinches it for me. Theology cannot be described as a serious academic discipline if you are going to publish faith-based opinions as facts. My understanding is that even Oxford and Cambridge universities have struggled with justifying the existence of their departments of theology given how completely left-behind they are by modern knowledge in philosophy and science. I assume your list of reasons for believing is not exhaustive however it is also not credible. Your willingness to learn is your redeeming feature in regards to the above, as I hope also is mine.

Stuart

[theodorej]

Greetings Stu….I would think that regardless of the length of my list of reasons for believing,it would matter not with respect to your convictions….I do not live in constant fear and no human being should ever live in fear….As for the people of Zimbabwe,when the day comes that they are able to transform their fear into courage they will be free…With courage the fear of death disappears….My fear of God manefests itself in respect for his statutes and a never ending challendge to keep them…With reference to the Big Bang theory,I attempted to make my point by offering an observation,that being, that the theory has no merit because their is no order in an explosion only chaos and disorder as compared to the order in the universe(eg.night/day change of seasons etc.)…H erectus,H sapians and so on are decendants of primative man not amoeba,or primates…In conclusion I think that higher education consists of memorizing the text…taking the test (passing it)…then you get a piece of paper attesting to your brillience….Harvard,Yale,Oxford and Cambridge all share the same genesis as theological seminaries…

[Stu]

Hi Theodorej

Why do you not advocate seeking freedom from this god that people fear? 'He' has by his own admission wreaked human misery, for the 'guilty' and innocent together on a scale that dwarfs anything Mugabe could muster. How are your god's statues able to overcome his tyrrany? Is total overthrow of the despicable dictatorship not required here? What of courage and freedom?

The big bang was not an explosion in the convenional sense; it was an inflation of space and time, not an expelling of stuff into already existing space. To really understand the nature of disorder you need to appreciate that there is no law of nature that says order cannot arise spontaneously – you just have to pay for it in greater disorder elsewhere. The order we are so sensitive to seeing is a complex-looking illusion of a large number of simple natural phenomena interacting. The order is paid for and there is no need to invoke a supernatural being to explain it – in fact that would just be a worse explanation because it would pose thousands more questions than it answered, and I don't see religious fundamentalists lining up to explain the creation of the monster-creator they worship.

Regarding biological evolution you specifically said humans. Have you notices how christians also shift the goal posts frequently in disussion?! I will not be listing all the transitional forms that take us back to our single-celled ancestors. There are plenty of such lists already in existence. An excellent one is 'The Ancestor's Tale' by Richard Dawkins which I would insist on for anyone who is willing to be serious about their claim to be seeking truth.

Of course real education is about taking a properly questioning stance towards all recieved wisdom. As you rightly say institutions that claim acdemic status for theology are not interested in that and they leave some central dogmas untouched. In my opinion theology's credibility had worn thread-bare by about 200 years ago. Darwin finished it off but people still parade the corpse with a straight face.

Stuart

[charity]

Believe IT or NOT!

O That the whining is Adorable here on this thread!

men?

Are as lovely as

Each can be very different,

And incredibly unique in words that sound.

 growing like trees

All Is Good

that is Good

eating from all of you

Keep smiling

Where you are is just where you need to be

Thank you all

Lots of Love

Charity

[lineon]

Quote (charity @ July 11 2008,08:21)

Believe IT or NOT! O That the whining is Adorable here on this thread! men? Are as lovely as Each can be very different, And incredibly unique in words that sound.  growing like trees All Is Good that is Good eating from all of you Keep smiling Where you are is just where you need to be Thank you all Lots of Love Charity

Hi Charity

I agree with you
We all determine our own destiny.
And I have chosen Light.

Lineon

[charity]

HI Lineon

death is so permanent, until further notice.

perhaps the soul lives, and has a preapared body?

And they wish to  follow, in birthday suits

after

christ the first fruits of them that slept?

yet again I beleive they have pushed it to far this time?

That is the message of Abraham and his children

numbered as many as the stars that can be seen in the heavens.

if it was truly understood according to the original theme,
it would be seen, that all has been accomplished
that only souls were ever said redemend incorruptible expecting a bodie to return is faith in reincaranton?

This is not grace and mercy? Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. ……and of corse some had defiled there bodies and were needy of a new bodie to have a chance at being redemed to their god.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Can it be seen desperate dose as desperate can only see to do when ruleing is so narrowly..finalised

blessing Lineon and all

charity

[lineon]

Wars and killings
No one understands.
They,the instigaters and repressers
Understand nought of the happening.
Such was/is the waste,
Of swords flashing and bombs falling.
Gaping wounds and craters
Are left for civilization to contend with.
Why the christian faith is like a stage
Words and rhymes are learned,
Backstage actors and managers fight,
Of what is right and what is wrong.
Where is the unity that we preach?
The Love that is commanded of us?
All frozen into darkness
Computers should be asked.
Nation against nation
Man against man.
Everyone one is lost
But individuals shine with Light.

Lineon.

[lineon]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 06 2008,16:05)

Hey Irene, How about this poem: Happy Birthday to you… Happy Birthday to you… Happy Birthday dear Irene, Happy Birthday to you!!! Love ya, Kathi

Hi Irene are you a year older?
I hope you and your husbands pain has subsided somewhat?
My mother has mental pain,
I don't know which is worrse
Mental or physical?
Either-or both are not comfortable.
I wish you-and-yours a comfortable day.

Lineon.

[charity]

My singing teacher taught me this song when I was a child.

I sang it, and i sang it, and sang it again

I'd like to build a world a home
and furnish it with love.
Grow apple trees and honey bees
and snowwhite turtle doves.

I'd like to teach the world
to sing in perfect harmony

I'd like to hold it in my arms
and keep it company.

I'd like to see the world for once
all standing hand in hand.
And hear them echo through the hills
for peace throughout the land.

That's the song I hear
–
let the world sing today.
A song of peace that echoes on
and never goes away.
Put your hand in my hand

help me find the way.

[lineon]

The peace of man
Where can it be found?
In Africa?
In Australia?
Where we can live in harmony
No pushing, no bulling.
In the Middle East?
Far East?
No fire arms blazing
No children dieing.
Europe?
Asia?
Where man and wife
Stay together for life.
In the Americas?
Hawaii? New Zealand?
No where can the peace of man be found!
No material thing is King—–all is bling.

The peace of man is found in our heads
Jesus Christ is part of the technic
His return will stay off our decline
Jesus Christ is our ultimate aim.

Lineon

[charity]

My Heart Sings
My heart sings.
My heart sings the songs of happiness.
My heart sings the songs of joy.
My heart sings the songs of peace.
My heart sings the songs of the Blues.
My heart sings the songs of the Gospel.
My heart sings the songs of good news.
My heart cries a melody for all to hear.
My heart sings the harmonies of love.
My heart sings a song of beauty
that comes from the Thorne Birds
just before they die.
My heart sings songs to keep me alive.
My heart sings songs for as long as it beats.
My heart sings forever.
My heart sings haluwasa.
My heart sings.

by Jennifer Burns

[charity]

A Bee On A Blozzom
On an apple tree, full of blozzomz
A bee buzzed from one blozzom to another
To take in the zweet tazte of nectar
Then from the tree to the roze bushez
For yet another tazte zo az to compare
Only to find both tazty az tazte goez

by MARSHALL N BUTLER

[charity]

Give and Take
Paint me a picture of your heart
and I will sing you the song of my soul.
Read me the words of your mind
and I will open the door to my fears.
Hold me close to you forever –
and I will share with you my Love.

by Rhonda Burke

[Irene]

Quote (lineon @ July 15 2008,15:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 06 2008,16:05) Hey Irene, How about this poem: Happy Birthday to you… Happy Birthday to you… Happy Birthday dear Irene, Happy Birthday to you!!! Love ya, Kathi Hi Irene are you a year older? I hope you and your husbands pain has subsided somewhat? My mother has mental pain, I don't know which is worrse Mental or physical? Either-or both are not comfortable. I wish you-and-yours a comfortable day. Lineon.

Yep a year older just 70 years young. When you reach that age pain is our constant companion. Mental must be worse, I think? I went through that in my younger years. But I have learned to be quit in Christ.

Lineon and charity you both have a talent of Poetry. I love those Songs.
Peace and Love Irene

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