Poetry

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2008,14:20)

Stu, Why don't you tell us what's really on your mind?

You're right it is not healthy for me to bottle things up like this.

Hey did you notice that this thread is not for poetry but for discussing whether there is support for a poetry thread?

All that off-topic poetry we have posted…

Stuart

[lineon]

Quote (Stu @ July 05 2008,12:48)

Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,14:43) Quote (Stu @ July 04 2008,23:11) Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,02:50) Hey Stuart tell me who do you think 'the dogs of war' are? Please don't give me paragraph upon paragraph of your belief, Just make it short and sweet. Lineon John Hagee, George Bush and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad begin the list.  All of them religious nutters who in some way think their fantasy revealed knowledge will be played out by one or more enormous fireballs across the Middle East. That is who the dogs of war are.  Who did you think they were?  Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens? Stuart No, I think your right But I do believe they are part of your tribe Is it not called the survival of the fittest. Lineon. What? Stuart

Yes!

[lineon]

Quote (Stu @ July 06 2008,05:36)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2008,14:20) Stu, Why don't you tell us what's really on your mind? You're right it is not healthy for me to bottle things up like this. Hey did you notice that this thread is not for poetry but for discussing whether there is support for a poetry thread? All that off-topic poetry we have posted… Stuart

You just don't get it Stuart.
You are the poet
You have to say yes or no
You have to be black or white
You have to choose between life and death
You have to choose between arguing and accepting.

Lineon

[Stu]

Um lineon this thread is about whether there should be a poetry thread. I think anything that scans is surely off-topic until the question is settled!

Regarding having to acept black or white, that is the great mistake of the religionist. The fantasy world is black and white but the real world has untold shades of grey. I choose reality, being neither black nor white.

Tell me what I just don't get then. Articulate my ignorance for me.

Stuart

[theodorej]

Greetings Stu…..The answer to your question is easy….We should worry about ourselves….By ignoring human nature one isolates himself from the obvious good and evil that exists in all of us(Dogs of War)..Nothing will change in this world until man realizes he needs the love and direction that only God can give.(eg.His Government/Kingdom)….Spewing platatudes and cowaring from evil only guarantees its triumph….If Jesus had our nature and not the nature of God,he would bomb pornography,murder,decietfullness,totalartarian governments,theocratic goverments and in conclusion IGNORANCE…

[lineon]

Quote (theodorej @ July 06 2008,14:53)

Greetings Stu…..The answer to your question is easy….We should worry about ourselves….By ignoring human nature one isolates himself from the obvious good and evil that exists in all of us(Dogs of War)..Nothing will change in this world until man realizes he needs the love and direction that only God can give.(eg.His Government/Kingdom)….Spewing platatudes and cowaring from evil only guarantees its triumph….If Jesus had our nature and not the nature of God,he would bomb pornography,murder,decietfullness,totalartarian governments,theocratic goverments and in conclusion IGNORANCE…

Thank you Theodorej!

Lineon

[Lightenup]

Hey Irene,
How about this poem:

Happy Birthday to you…
Happy Birthday to you…
Happy Birthday dear Irene,
Happy Birthday to you!!!

Love ya,
Kathi

[lineon]

Quote (Stu @ July 06 2008,08:20)

The fantasy world is black and white but the real world has untold shades of grey.  I choose reality, being neither black nor white.

It's the yin and the yang
The black and the white.
The fantasy world cannot be black or white
The soul reason is, that we see colour.

Black is death
White is life
And shades of grey is sitting on the fence.
You must choose Stuart
Death or life.
This is reality.

Times have changed
It's nomore christian against unbeliever
It is now believer against unbeliever

Lineon.

[lineon]

Lord God You are One,
My life is two
Trying to harmonize with You.

Lord Your will, let it be done.
But this pain, this pain, let me be one.

All of this I see in me,
This passing life,
Let me harmonize let me see the Keys.

Their begging hands shout for help
They cannot fly their thoughts are on gayities.

Should we run into the wind
Not careing where we are blown,
Living only for ourselves, no thought of You?

Grant us Light
Only You can provide.

Lineon.

[Stu]

Quote (theodorej @ July 07 2008,00:53)

Greetings Stu…..The answer to your question is easy….We should worry about ourselves….By ignoring human nature one isolates himself from the obvious good and evil that exists in all of us(Dogs of War)..Nothing will change in this world until man realizes he needs the love and direction that only God can give.(eg.His Government/Kingdom)….Spewing platatudes and cowaring from evil only guarantees its triumph….If Jesus had our nature and not the nature of God,he would bomb pornography,murder,decietfullness,totalartarian governments,theocratic goverments and in conclusion IGNORANCE…

This is the black-and-white fantasy world that online proposes but denies – the with us or against us medieval crusade. You do not have to be christian to know murder and totalitarianist regimes are bad (I think you do have to be Abrahamic to see pornography as evil) but my experience is that if you are christian you have an excuse to remain ignorant of the human nature that gives rise to these things and thereby are in danger of dismissing murder or bad dictatorship as evil instead of trying to prevent it. Do you execute the murderer and claim the inheritance of a “kingdom not of this world” or should you engage and find understanding of the actual causes? Antiabortionists are just trying to replace one 'evil' with another, presumably they think a lesser one. The christian act of mission to areas of poverty does not come without attempts to convert, in some cases disastrous ones, so examples of genuine attempts by christians to actually understand the human condition are rare. The world is indeed grey and using black and white to model it has always failed, and has resulted in the evil of religious totalitarianism.

As for the question of needing god, all I will leave you with is a repetition of Christopher Hitchens' question to name one moral act that can be performed by a believer that cannot be done by an atheist, a reminder that rates of teen pregnancy and other percieved social ills are highest where there is strong god-belief, and the fact that in the US the rate of imprisonment of atheists is 0.23% against a general non-believing population of 15+%.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (lineon @ July 07 2008,08:39)

Quote (Stu @ July 06 2008,08:20)  The fantasy world is black and white but the real world has untold shades of grey.  I choose reality, being neither black nor white. It's the yin and the yang The black and the white. The fantasy world cannot be black or white       The soul reason is, that we see colour. Black is death White is life And shades of grey is sitting on the fence. You must choose Stuart Death or life. This is reality. Times have changed It's nomore christian against unbeliever It is now believer against unbeliever Lineon.

Yet again you want black and white – us and them. I'm afraid only the christian stands to lose with that view. You need to be careful with semantics here, for I am a believer and you a non-believer. You do not believe in the provenance and reality of the ancient gods of Olympus. I believe in the complex but essentially positive character of human nature, including the curious evolutionary adaptation that is altruism.

The 'you must choose' statement is a nonsense platitude. You are not proposing any kind of choice at all.

You claim to 'see in colour' which I can only assume is some kind of metaphor for the percieved spiritual blindness of the atheist. In my opinion the metaphor should be applied in reverse.

So what do you know that in principle I cannot know?

Stuart

[theodorej]

Quote (Stu @ July 07 2008,21:50)

Quote (theodorej @ July 07 2008,00:53) Greetings Stu…..The answer to your question is easy….We should worry about ourselves….By ignoring human nature one isolates himself from the obvious good and evil that exists in all of us(Dogs of War)..Nothing will change in this world until man realizes he needs the love and direction that only God can give.(eg.His Government/Kingdom)….Spewing platatudes and cowaring from evil only guarantees its triumph….If Jesus had our nature and not the nature of God,he would bomb pornography,murder,decietfullness,totalartarian governments,theocratic goverments and in conclusion IGNORANCE… This is the black-and-white fantasy world that online proposes but denies – the with us or against us medieval crusade.  You do not have to be christian to know murder and totalitarianist regimes are bad (I think you do have to be Abrahamic to see pornography as evil) but my experience is that if you are christian you have an excuse to remain ignorant of the human nature that gives rise to these things and thereby are in danger of dismissing murder or bad dictatorship as evil instead of trying to prevent it.  Do you execute the murderer and claim the inheritance of a “kingdom not of this world” or should you engage and find understanding of the actual causes? Antiabortionists are just trying to replace one 'evil' with another, presumably they think a lesser one. The christian act of mission to areas of poverty does not come without attempts to convert, in some cases disastrous ones, so examples of genuine attempts by christians to actually understand the human condition are rare.  The world is indeed grey and using black and white to model it has always failed, and has resulted in the evil of religious totalitarianism.   As for the question of needing god, all I will leave you with is a repetition of Christopher Hitchens' question to name one moral act that can be performed by a believer that cannot be done by an atheist, a reminder that rates of teen pregnancy and other percieved social ills are highest where there is strong god-belief, and the fact that in the US the rate of imprisonment of atheists is 0.23% against a general non-believing population of 15+%. Stuart

Greetings Stu….I thank you for your response,however,Iam puzzled by your consistant reference to obscure relatively unknown novelists to bring about a conclusive point….Having said that,Iam a person who has studied theology for many years and I have to say that your view of christianity today is not without merit…The fantasy world you discribe that is devoid of any understanding of human nature is a result of bad education…The spirit of true christianity or at least the lessons taught by Jesus are lessons about how to live a peacefull productive existance,the blueprint for this is exemplified in the ten commandments..(not the ten requests).
My Abramic viewpoint on pornography is probably shared by any number of learned members of society…It is demeaning and selfserving as well as addictive and leads to various forms of perversity..( you might want to get a hold of Ted Bundies interview Dobson just before his execution).Anti abortionists for the most part believe things but do not truly know why…In my humble opinion,and this is not a christian viewpoint,Any interuption in the natural course of nature has an adverse affect,be it a pregnancy or the prevention of a pregnancy by means of drugs.( you might want to examine the statistics involving women with varios cancers,mostly breast)….I do not claim any moral high ground here nor am I injudgement of you….we just have a diferent outlook toward things…I know why I believe the things I do…perhaps you change my mind…In the final analysis we are all human and in Gods eyes equal….

[lineon]

Quote (lineon @ July 06 2008,07:06)

Quote (Stu @ July 05 2008,12:48) Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,14:43) Quote (Stu @ July 04 2008,23:11) Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,02:50) Hey Stuart tell me who do you think 'the dogs of war' are? Please don't give me paragraph upon paragraph of your belief, Just make it short and sweet. Lineon John Hagee, George Bush and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad begin the list.  All of them religious nutters who in some way think their fantasy revealed knowledge will be played out by one or more enormous fireballs across the Middle East. That is who the dogs of war are.  Who did you think they were?  Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens? Stuart No, I think your right But I do believe they are part of your tribe Is it not called the survival of the fittest. Lineon. What? Stuart Yes!

I am still waiting for your response!

[theodorej]

Quote (lineon @ July 08 2008,00:39)

Quote (lineon @ July 06 2008,07:06) Quote (Stu @ July 05 2008,12:48) Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,14:43) Quote (Stu @ July 04 2008,23:11) Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,02:50) Hey Stuart tell me who do you think 'the dogs of war' are? Please don't give me paragraph upon paragraph of your belief, Just make it short and sweet. Lineon John Hagee, George Bush and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad begin the list.  All of them religious nutters who in some way think their fantasy revealed knowledge will be played out by one or more enormous fireballs across the Middle East. That is who the dogs of war are.  Who did you think they were?  Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens? Stuart No, I think your right But I do believe they are part of your tribe Is it not called the survival of the fittest. Lineon. What? Stuart Yes! I am still waiting for your response!

Good Morning

[lineon]

Quote (theodorej @ July 07 2008,14:22)

Quote (Stu @ July 07 2008,21:50) Quote (theodorej @ July 07 2008,00:53) Greetings Stu…..The answer to your question is easy….We should worry about ourselves….By ignoring human nature one isolates himself from the obvious good and evil that exists in all of us(Dogs of War)..Nothing will change in this world until man realizes he needs the love and direction that only God can give.(eg.His Government/Kingdom)….Spewing platatudes and cowaring from evil only guarantees its triumph….If Jesus had our nature and not the nature of God,he would bomb pornography,murder,decietfullness,totalartarian governments,theocratic goverments and in conclusion IGNORANCE… This is the black-and-white fantasy world that online proposes but denies – the with us or against us medieval crusade.  You do not have to be christian to know murder and totalitarianist regimes are bad (I think you do have to be Abrahamic to see pornography as evil) but my experience is that if you are christian you have an excuse to remain ignorant of the human nature that gives rise to these things and thereby are in danger of dismissing murder or bad dictatorship as evil instead of trying to prevent it.  Do you execute the murderer and claim the inheritance of a “kingdom not of this world” or should you engage and find understanding of the actual causes? Antiabortionists are just trying to replace one 'evil' with another, presumably they think a lesser one. The christian act of mission to areas of poverty does not come without attempts to convert, in some cases disastrous ones, so examples of genuine attempts by christians to actually understand the human condition are rare.  The world is indeed grey and using black and white to model it has always failed, and has resulted in the evil of religious totalitarianism.   As for the question of needing god, all I will leave you with is a repetition of Christopher Hitchens' question to name one moral act that can be performed by a believer that cannot be done by an atheist, a reminder that rates of teen pregnancy and other percieved social ills are highest where there is strong god-belief, and the fact that in the US the rate of imprisonment of atheists is 0.23% against a general non-believing population of 15+%. Stuart Greetings Stu….I thank you for your response,however,Iam puzzled by your consistant reference to obscure relatively unknown novelists to bring about a conclusive point….Having said that,Iam a person who has studied theology for many years and I have to say that your view of christianity today is not without merit…The fantasy world you discribe that is devoid of any understanding of human nature is a result of bad education…The spirit of true christianity or at least the lessons taught by Jesus are lessons about how to live a peacefull productive existance,the blueprint for this is exemplified in the ten commandments..(not the ten requests). My Abramic viewpoint on pornography is probably shared by any number of learned members of society…It is demeaning and selfserving as well as addictive and leads to various forms of perversity..( you might want to get a hold of Ted Bundies interview Dobson just before his execution).Anti abortionists for the most part believe things but do not truly know why…In my humble opinion,and this is not a christian viewpoint,Any interuption in the natural course of nature has an adverse affect,be it a pregnancy or the prevention of a pregnancy by means of drugs.( you might want to examine the statistics involving women with varios cancers,mostly breast)….I do not claim any moral high ground here nor am I injudgement of you….we just have a diferent outlook toward things…I know why I believe the things I do…perhaps you change my mind…In the final analysis we are all human and in Gods eyes equal….

Hi Theodorej

You think as clear
As clear water.
My thoughts come out in short sentences.

Thanks for the post.

Lineon.

[Stu]

Quote (lineon @ July 08 2008,00:39)

Quote (lineon @ July 06 2008,07:06) Quote (Stu @ July 05 2008,12:48) Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,14:43) Quote (Stu @ July 04 2008,23:11) Quote (lineon @ July 05 2008,02:50) Hey Stuart tell me who do you think 'the dogs of war' are? Please don't give me paragraph upon paragraph of your belief, Just make it short and sweet. Lineon John Hagee, George Bush and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad begin the list.  All of them religious nutters who in some way think their fantasy revealed knowledge will be played out by one or more enormous fireballs across the Middle East. That is who the dogs of war are.  Who did you think they were?  Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens? Stuart No, I think your right But I do believe they are part of your tribe Is it not called the survival of the fittest. Lineon. What? Stuart Yes! I am still waiting for your response!

Did you ask me a question?

Stuart

[Stu]

Hi Theodorej

Quote

Iam puzzled by your consistant reference to obscure relatively unknown novelists to bring about a conclusive point…. The spirit of true christianity or at least the lessons taught by Jesus are lessons about how to live a peacefull productive existance,the blueprint for this is exemplified in the ten commandments..(not the ten requests).

…but is done so much better and in many cases much earlier by other belief systems without the obsessive need for monotheism and prevention of idol worship. Jesus did not retain copyright on the Golden Rule – it is drawing a long bow to say that christianity invented that. He also allegedly said to hate your family if you wanted to follow him and promises some pretty unpleasant personal interventions in Revelation. He brought a sword, didn’t he? Was that in order to live a peaceful, productive existence?

This is not from other ‘novelists’, unless you are referring to the four canonical gospel novelists or the warped zealot Saul of Tarsus. They together attempt to cement their bluff-pact by insisting that you not only believe that Jesus was a person to pay attention to, but indeed that you must ridiculously believe he performed magic tricks like not having a human biological father, walking on the surface of water and walking again after his own death. These beliefs are straight from the biblical fantasy world, although of course Paul does not mention miracles except the supposed resurrection. That is fantasy novel-writing of actually a pretty mediocre sort. Expecting people to believe it actually happened is the prize political con.

Quote

Having said that,Iam a person who has studied theology for many years and I have to say that your view of christianity today is not without merit…The fantasy world you discribe that is devoid of any understanding of human nature is a result of bad education…

I have for some time wondered what theology actually is. Once you have removed history, philosophy and geography from it what on is left? A fantasy theme for a novel?

Quote

My Abramic viewpoint on pornography is probably shared by any number of learned members of society…It is demeaning and selfserving as well as addictive and leads to various forms of perversity..

Sure, but you said it was evil. ‘Demeaning’ and ‘perversity’ are like ‘offensive’. You can only be demeaned, or offended or view something as perverse in your own eye. What is inherently wrong about something that is ‘self-serving’? Tobacco and alcohol and cannabis are addictive, are they black-and-white evil too? Is it not abuse of these things that is the problem? I am sure there are many people who make and consume pornography who are quite balanced and happy about it, suffering no ill effects and sensibly paying no attention to puritanical calls of ‘evil’. I guess like all art of whatever quality, it depends on what is depicted and how well. The bible is silent on the issue of pornography. There was plenty of such imagery around throughout the history of scripture writing yet it does not rate a mention. How do you know it is evil? I should therefore retract my accusation of it being an Abrahamic obsession and recast it as puritanical novel-writing.

Quote

Anti abortionists for the most part believe things but do not truly know why…In my humble opinion,and this is not a christian viewpoint,Any interuption in the natural course of nature has an adverse affect,be it a pregnancy or the prevention of a pregnancy by means of drugs.( you might want to examine the statistics involving women with varios cancers,mostly breast)….

Certainly abortion and contraception are not without negative consequences, however as with all things we balance those things against the benefits, not least of which is the survival and well-being of the adult. God is the greatest ‘abortionist’ of them all. If I understand it right, half of all implanted embryos are lost and 20% of pregnancies result in miscarriage…that excludes the fact that a majority of zygotes do not even implant. God obviously does not share the RC obsession with abortion. There are many instances of women dying along with their unborn children on his behest. You are absolutely right about ignorance on this point. Young women might not understand the health implications of having abortions, and the pope certainly spreads biological ignorance (in a deadly way). He must be on your list of novelists!

Quote

…In the final analysis we are all human and in Gods eyes equal….

If we are so equal in god’s eyes, why do you almost never read of the birth of girls in the bible? It is full of begating sons. At the very least it reflects a patriarchal attitude (ironically within a matriarchal Jewish culture). Why does god not write about the birth of girls in his autobiography? Is he sexist?

Good to talk with you.

Stuart

[Stu]

I have still not decided whether we should have a poetry thread. There is little discussion on this point and I don't feel I have all the facts to make a final choice. Can someone tell me how the voting is going? (I have not yet voted). I might have to do the christian thing and blindly follow the crowd…or stubbornly stick with the minority, against all reason…

Stuart

[charity]

Learn your lessons quickly and move on.
~Eileen Caddy

[charity]

There are two ways of passing from this world – one in light and one
in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but
when one passes in darkness, he returns.
~Bhagavad Gita

[Author]

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