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Irene………..All men and women came from heaven, the Spirit of Life in them all came from Heaven our bodies are one thing our spirits are quite another, All recieved their Spirits (intellects) from Heaven from GOD, what the difference about Jesus, non. He did (NOT) exist as a person until he was born on earth and then as we he became a living soul. And when they die the Spirit of LIFE goes back to heaven also.
peace and love to you and Georg…………………………..gene
Quote (barley @ July 28 2010,14:06) mikeboll64,July wrote:Okay barley Gene and Martian,
No, actually you read different words than those that are there.
He took upon himself the form of a servant. It does not say, he took upon himself the form of a man. As you stated, he was already in the form of a man.
God is spirit. John 4;24, the like ness of God is spirit. The form of God is spirit. Did Jesus have spirit, yes, at his baptism by John the B, spirit from God descended down from heaven to be upon him.
Having this spirit, he chose to serve God, not himself.
God being spirit, by rights, should have had a son who was spirit as well. God chose to have a son that was made in the like ness of men. Note the past tense, JC was made in the likeness of men. He did not make himself in the like ness of men, read carefully now, was made. See it, was made. It does not say made himself. God made him in the likeness of men. After all, God was his Father and Mary his mother.
Read what is written, for what it says, any putz can read into it. We need to learn to read it for what it says, without preconceived notions.
Why was he made in the likeness of men? Because that is what God wanted. He wanted a human son, a perfect human son, one that could undo the mistake the first perfect humans made. Jesus Christ as a perfect man could redeem us. God had the plan, Jesus Christ was the man to carry out that plan. God's only begotten son.
See John 3:16.
What if I ascend to where God says I am seated together with Christ?
Ephesians 2:6.
And I will ascend there. I Thessalonians 4:13-18.
God raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Do I look like I am seated on the right hand of God with Jesus Christ? Do you? NO, yet God says we are there. God said I am there, there is no evidence that I am there except for the testimony of the scriptures. And my attitude, since I believe it.
Look it up. Read it for yourself.
Jesus Christ pre existed? Not a chance.
barley.
Mike this written by baely is right on brother. IMOpeace and love …………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,14:00) Okay barley Gene and Martian, You have all made it clear that you read the words differently than I do. I want to point out one last thing before calling Phil 2 a stalemate. And by that, I mean there is no sense in us brothers beating each other up when it is clear that none of us is just being obstinate here. We all believe how we do based on how we understand the Greek words and the context. But here's my last point, and then look for a new scripture in a new thread. I'll post it tonight.
The last words of verse 7 are:
and being made
in the likeness
of men.
Mike………That is exactly the way we have been made in the likeness of men right? Face it mike you can not use Phil 2 to support you preconceived dogmas of preexistence, Barley, Martian, Nick, and Myself, have properly presented it to you now its up to you to digest it and understand it. Let the spirit have it's perfect work Mike.peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,13:06) Quote (martian @ July 27 2010,05:58) Mike,
Let me add one more point to my previous post. Christ functioning as a God fits directly with him being the firstborn. As firstborn he has the responsibility to represent his father. To act in his name. Everything Christ did he gave credit to his father because he represented him as the one in firstborn position should.
In many old cultures, when a son in the firstborn position became of age he was given the signet ring and authority to at as if he were the father. Business men and merchants alike gave him the same deference as they did the father. He acted as the father would to all he met. Jesus could have used this authority to rule his father's kingdom and family but instead laid the rights and privledges of that position down to be a servant to them.
Yet you think Jesus was exactly like we are. Did anyone ever think YOU were wearing God's signet ring? Did anyone ever link YOU so directly to God Himself that you were thought of as closer to God than anyone else? Is your immediate father God?Doesn't sound like “sameness” to me Martian.
mike
But then I am not in the firstborn position of authority am I?
However I am heirs and joint heirs with Christ who is in the firstborn position of authority. Do I have the authority to do what christ did and to rule with him forever? Absolutely yes!!!!! (and I am not talking about his mission as Messiah although that does make it possible for me to follow him)
I may not be completed yet but who do you think is going to do greater things then Christ? Some man in the moon or us? I can carry the authority of my heavenly father because I am part of the firstborn church. All I need is to grow in the faith more then I am now.Mike…………Now that we have exhausted Philippians lets move on brother. We all surely await your new scriptures that you use to defend your position brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,14:00) Okay barley Gene and Martian, You have all made it clear that you read the words differently than I do. I want to point out one last thing before calling Phil 2 a stalemate. And by that, I mean there is no sense in us brothers beating each other up when it is clear that none of us is just being obstinate here. We all believe how we do based on how we understand the Greek words and the context. But here's my last point, and then look for a new scripture in a new thread. I'll post it tonight.
The last words of verse 7 are:
and being made
in the likeness
of men.Remember that first it says he was “in the form of God”, which you guys say means that even as a human, he “struck the vision as one who was God”. (Martian quote)
So if he was already a human who was thought of as “from God” or “like a god” or whatever, why would he be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN?
barley apparently agrees with Martian that I don't know how to do homework.
So let's do it together, eh?and being made ginomai 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
in the likeness homoioma 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
of men anthropos 1) a human being, whether male or female
To me, this clearly says that AFTER existing in the form of God, he was literally made into a man.
But we disagree, and I don't want to see 800+ pages of this thread in which we just keep repeating the same things like the pre-existence thread.
So what next? John 6:38 that barley quoted? How about the one where the Son of Man ascends to where he was before? Yeah, that one sounds good. Look for it guys.
peace and love,
mike
You say –
To me, this clearly says that AFTER existing in the form of God, he was literally made into a man.
Reply – you add the word “after” to the text to signify a time frame to support preexistence. This is not honest. All it says is that he existed. Not whar he existed. You are reading your doctrine into the verse.Another point concerning verse 7. Many manuscripts read laid aside his privledges instead of emptied himself. Now if Christ privledges were based on his chronological birth then those privledges could never be laid down He cannot deny his birth order. However if those privledges were part of the firstborn rights he was appointed to then those could be laid down.
Mike,
Concerning your “stalemate”.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)
Sometimes (depending on the subject) I even employ debate forums to see what other say. However I rarely if ever find, on forums, those that will be as careful or thorough as these steps demand. Most never get beyond step one.
When I posted these criteria that I use to determine the meaning of a verse, your comment was that I was probably more careful then you. I believe that to be the understatement of the entire interplay between you and I. These criteria are the bare minimum one must do to insure an accurate interpretation.
You say you follow principles for interpretation but never post them. I suspect that either you really have none or do not want to be caught breaking your own principles. (that is assuming they are honest principles)
Let me summarize our interplay on Philippians 2. (not necessarily in the order they occurred)
1.You have refused to acknowledge or deal with the impact that Hebrew culture has on the meaning of scripture. I suspect this is a lack of education on your part, however this does not stop you from continuing with no respect or regard for what you do not know.
A.I posted concerning the teaching of the Firstborn with accompanying scriptural proofs and you disregarded it.
B.I posted the teaching of the Adam – Christ comparison and you disregarded it.
C.I posted the manner in which the Hebrews see things and you ignored it.
D.I post web pages that describe my stand and you refuse to even read them until prodded into it.I believe the only reason you are seeking a stalemate is because you might be finally realizing that you cannot win the debate.
I will not engage in another debate with you until you agree to follow the principles for interpretation that I have posted OR suggest your own. ( we can discuss alternatives)Now if you want to discuss another scripture first agree to a set of principles that will be binding on both of us and I will consider it.
Secondly how about I choose a scripture this time?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2010,01:21) Irene………..All men and women came from heaven, the Spirit of Life in them all came from Heaven our bodies are one thing our spirits are quite another, All recieved their Spirits (intellects) from Heaven from GOD, what the difference about Jesus, non. He did (NOT) exist as a person until he was born on earth and then as we he became a living soul. And when they die the Spirit of LIFE goes back to heaven also. peace and love to you and Georg…………………………..gene
Gene! Wrong, Jesus did not come from the dust of the earth, Ike us…. the firstborn of all creation. Why is He called the literal Son of God? He is the only one that came forth from His Father. You have a firstborn? We do. While Jesus is the literal Son of God we are the adopted Son's of God….. you do agree with that, don't you?? So we all came down from Heaven? Are you for real? I don't think so….. We were from the dust of the earth. But we are going way from this tread which is Phil. 2 And that is were I am going to leave it. There is no sense in arguing with you and others who simple refuse to go by Scriptures…..One more thing, you seem to think that Jesus just had a Spirit like us, while He was a Spirit Being like His Father. No flesh and blood can ever come close to our Heavenly Father. And Jesus came from His Father in Heaven…..Emptied Himself of that Spirit Being and became A man……a mere man. Not super man….. What He did have is the Holy Spirit full strength. But that is another subject…. Have a nice day, IreneIrene…………ARE Son and Daughters of GOD Also? John seemed to think we are (NOW) son of GOD . Do you really believe that or not , if you do then what is so mysterious about Jesus being called a Son of GOD, He was begotten at the Jordan river by the same Spirit which begets Us. Or would you prefer to not (REALLY) BE A CO- equal sister of Jesus , because obviously you don't thing your really are and Jesus is not really like you then is He?, Mystery religion has greately infected many> IMO
peace and love to you and Georg……………………………..gene
Mike………….Martian is right brother. you have failed to prove your points with Philippians 2, i said we seem to have a stale mate because you fail to acknowledge your errors, not because we have failed to produce the proofs. Now we are told the Spirit (BOTH) accuses us or defends us, Do you see this at work (IN) your, is the eye of your understanding beginning to understand this, are you being convected of your error yet. I believe you do have God's Spirit and it is convecting you of your errors.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2010,05:49) Irene…………ARE Son and Daughters of GOD Also? John seemed to think we are (NOW) son of GOD . Do you really believe that or not , if you do then what is so mysterious about Jesus being called a Son of GOD, He was begotten at the Jordan river by the same Spirit which begets Us. Or would you prefer to not (REALLY) BE A CO- equal sister of Jesus , because obviously you don't thing your really are and Jesus is not really like you then is He?, Mystery religion has greately infected many> IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………………..gene
Gene! I do know by now that you don't believe that Jesus came from Heaven and then emptied Himself and became flesh. Just like John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13and verse 16 all will show us that Jesus was the Word who was there in the beginning before the world was…. it is up to you if you want to believe it or not. I believe Jesus when He said that He came from heaven etc.I have proven to myself, I do not have to prove it to you…..that is all….. I will not go around in circles with you, prove it to yourself, I don't have to and I can't, that is God's job and yours…..Peace to you IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2010,14:57) Quote (barley @ July 28 2010,14:06) No, actually you read different words than those that are there.
Hey barley and all,Read it again:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.barley said:
Quote No, actually you read different words than those that are there. No, the words are there. I just had reposted that same question about 20 times to you guys, and towards the end I mixed up a couple of the words.
Answer just to the last 5 words barley. You too Gene. I let you guys off the hook so we didn't end up in a fist fight or something about it. But the word “made” is “ginomai” which literally means “generated” or “caused to exist”. It is the root word for the “genes” part of “monogenes”, which means “only begotten”.
Furthermore, I let barley slide with his long, drawn out conclusion of what Phil 2 was about. But all it's really saying is to not be selfish and think of yourself and your own position in life, but be like Jesus who had the best position ever at the right hand of God and gave that up to come and SERVE us sinful men. He was as God to us, being His right hand man and all, but EMPTIED himself of that to be “MADE (caused to exist) IN HUMAN LIKENESS”.
So, you want to keep going with Phil 2? I moved to the next scripture in an effort to keep a shred of respect and kindness between us here. And also at Gene's request. But then he turns around and says “He called it a stale mate but in fact it was a wipe out IMO”. Really Gene? And what role did you play in this wipe out besides saying “You're right” to anyone who posted against me? You don't even know what you think as long as it adds up to “Jesus didn't pre-exist”. First, you say Paul meant he is NOW “existing” in the form of God in heaven, not THEN. And then you say Martian and barley are right about it having nothing to do with heaven at all, but that Jesus could have “lorded it over” everyone that he was the Son of God, but chose not to. So which one is it, Gene?
I'll see you guys on the John thread.
mike
Mikeboll64,Thank you for your input.
Let me conclude,
Jesus Christ was made in the likeness of men. He did not make himself in the likeness of men. God did.
Jesus Christ's parents were God and Mary, therefore JC would have to be in the form of God. As Mary was his mother, JC was made in the likeness of men.
We can take his example and run with it.
We can get off of our high horse and serve God.
We can learn to humble ourself to serve God just like JC did.
If this does not make any sense to you, as far as I know I have done my best.
NO. (Let me sum up my summary.)
Jesus Christ did not preexist.
Barley.
Quote (barley @ July 29 2010,10:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2010,14:57) Quote (barley @ July 28 2010,14:06) No, actually you read different words than those that are there.
Hey barley and all,Read it again:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.barley said:
Quote No, actually you read different words than those that are there. No, the words are there. I just had reposted that same question about 20 times to you guys, and towards the end I mixed up a couple of the words.
Answer just to the last 5 words barley. You too Gene. I let you guys off the hook so we didn't end up in a fist fight or something about it. But the word “made” is “ginomai” which literally means “generated” or “caused to exist”. It is the root word for the “genes” part of “monogenes”, which means “only begotten”.
Furthermore, I let barley slide with his long, drawn out conclusion of what Phil 2 was about. But all it's really saying is to not be selfish and think of yourself and your own position in life, but be like Jesus who had the best position ever at the right hand of God and gave that up to come and SERVE us sinful men. He was as God to us, being His right hand man and all, but EMPTIED himself of that to be “MADE (caused to exist) IN HUMAN LIKENESS”.
So, you want to keep going with Phil 2? I moved to the next scripture in an effort to keep a shred of respect and kindness between us here. And also at Gene's request. But then he turns around and says “He called it a stale mate but in fact it was a wipe out IMO”. Really Gene? And what role did you play in this wipe out besides saying “You're right” to anyone who posted against me? You don't even know what you think as long as it adds up to “Jesus didn't pre-exist”. First, you say Paul meant he is NOW “existing” in the form of God in heaven, not THEN. And then you say Martian and barley are right about it having nothing to do with heaven at all, but that Jesus could have “lorded it over” everyone that he was the Son of God, but chose not to. So which one is it, Gene?
I'll see you guys on the John thread.
mike
Mikeboll64,Thank you for your input.
Let me conclude,
Jesus Christ was made in the likeness of men. He did not make himself in the likeness of men. God did.
Jesus Christ's parents were God and Mary, therefore JC would have to be in the form of God. As Mary was his mother, JC was made in the likeness of men.
We can take his example and run with it.
We can get off of our high horse and serve God.
We can learn to humble ourself to serve God just like JC did.
If this does not make any sense to you, as far as I know I have done my best.
NO. (Let me sum up my summary.)
Jesus Christ did not preexist.
Barley.
I do not think Mike is going to answer. He was beginning to lose the debate and he cut his losses and ran away.5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Since Mike will not continue I guess I will.
All scripture is good for teaching. What does this conclusion of Mike’s teach us? What is it’s fruit?
It teaches us that a preexistant being can give up the glory he had in heaven and become a human being. That Jesus went through some process to give up this spirit life and humble himself to become a man.
OK then. I want to follow Christ. I want to be humble, so the process I go through is what? Oh I forgot, I am not a preexistant being so I cannot go through the same process as Christ. Thee is no fruit for me other then some silly philosophy to preach on Mars hill.Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:13) 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Since Mike will not continue I guess I will.
All scripture is good for teaching. What does this conclusion of Mike’s teach us? What is it’s fruit?
It teaches us that a preexistant being can give up the glory he had in heaven and become a human being. That Jesus went through some process to give up this spirit life and humble himself to become a man.
OK then. I want to follow Christ. I want to be humble, so the process I go through is what? Oh I forgot, I am not a preexistant being so I cannot go through the same process as Christ. Thee is no fruit for me other then some silly philosophy to preach on Mars hill.
martian…….Amen brother, they just don't get it yet, but i believe as we proceed they might if GOD Willing. Yours and Barleys and Nick sound reasonings on this subject is a great encouragement here brother.peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2010,15:41) Hi MB,
The question is HOW IS IT RELEVANT to his ministry and how we follow him?
No Nick,The question is how do you explain Phil 2 any other way than what it literally means without reaching, straining, and using the less popular alternate definitions for each critical word?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,00:13) It has absolutely nothing to do with whether he was fully human or not. You hae no way of knowing from Christ birth is he is fully human or something else. Stop posting the same nonsense.
Hey Martian,Why not just try to answer the question?
Did YOU have a human father? Did Jesus? Okay, you are different from him right off the bat, aren't you?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2010,02:21) Quote (barley @ July 28 2010,14:06) mikeboll64,July wrote:Okay barley Gene and Martian,
No, actually you read different words than those that are there.
He took upon himself the form of a servant. It does not say, he took upon himself the form of a man. As you stated, he was already in the form of a man.
God is spirit. John 4;24, the like ness of God is spirit. The form of God is spirit. Did Jesus have spirit, yes, at his baptism by John the B, spirit from God descended down from heaven to be upon him.
Having this spirit, he chose to serve God, not himself.
God being spirit, by rights, should have had a son who was spirit as well. God chose to have a son that was made in the like ness of men. Note the past tense, JC was made in the likeness of men. He did not make himself in the like ness of men, read carefully now, was made. See it, was made. It does not say made himself. God made him in the likeness of men. After all, God was his Father and Mary his mother.
Read what is written, for what it says, any putz can read into it. We need to learn to read it for what it says, without preconceived notions.
Why was he made in the likeness of men? Because that is what God wanted. He wanted a human son, a perfect human son, one that could undo the mistake the first perfect humans made. Jesus Christ as a perfect man could redeem us. God had the plan, Jesus Christ was the man to carry out that plan. God's only begotten son.
See John 3:16.
What if I ascend to where God says I am seated together with Christ?
Ephesians 2:6.
And I will ascend there. I Thessalonians 4:13-18.
God raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Do I look like I am seated on the right hand of God with Jesus Christ? Do you? NO, yet God says we are there. God said I am there, there is no evidence that I am there except for the testimony of the scriptures. And my attitude, since I believe it.
Look it up. Read it for yourself.
Jesus Christ pre existed? Not a chance.
barley.
Mike this written by baely is right on brother. IMOpeace and love …………………gene
Gene,You have done a haphazard job of pasting here. It looks as if that whole quote is my words. Please be more careful in the future.
mike
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