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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2010,13:38) Hi MB,
Phil 2 speaks of CHRIST JESUS, not just Jesus.
It speaks of the anointed man
There is a difference.
Hi Nick,And Matt 1:18 speaks of the human birth of Christ Jesus.
mike
Hi MB,
Jesus was not given his name till he was conceived of Mary.
So why would you assume this is about him before then?
The Spirit of Christ is indeed in the form of GodQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2010,14:10) Hi MB,
Jesus was not given his name till he was conceived of Mary.
So why would you assume this is about him before then?
The Spirit of Christ is indeed in the form of God
Why would you assume that when speaking of Jesus' pre-existence, one would have to clarify by saying, “The one who would later be known as Jesus”?Jude 1:25 says, 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!
mike
Hi MB,
As you say assumptions abound.Far better to leave aside matters relating to implication which have no bearing on our salvation.
There are much more important things to do-serving God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2010,14:29) Hi MB,
As you say assumptions abound.Far better to leave aside matters relating to implication which have no bearing on our salvation.
There are much more important things to do-serving God.
I try to stay focused on this passage, Nick:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
This is the man Jesus saying it means everlasting life to take in knowledge of him and his God. Part of that knowledge is right there in verse 5, Nick. Soak it in so you won't have to assume things about spirits. This doesn't say the “spirit of Christ” was alongside the Father before the world was, does it?
mike
Quote (barley @ July 27 2010,11:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,11:55) Quote (barley @ July 26 2010,11:00) Might I add? Jesus Christ chose to be obedient to his parents. I chose to be obedient to mine.
Hi barley,Why do you keep avoiding the very simple question? If Jesus was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the form of God, how did he then empty himself and be made in the form of a human?
mike
Mr. Mike,Looks like I need to add more scripture to what I shared.
Has not the context made it clear that the passage you refer to is in the context of loving, obedient service to God? Why would God introduce a foreign idea in the middle of an exhortation to serve in loving obedience to the Father? What does preexistence have to do with us serving God? Nothing, Jesus Christ did not preexist, and he served God. It is not a requirement that we preexist in order to serve God, is it? If it is, we are all in a heap of trouble. Why? because we did not preexist and we are commanded to serve God only. ….Him only shalt thou serve.” Matthew 4:10
If the passage you refer to, actually indicates that Jesus Christ, as God, emptied himself of being God, and decided to take on the form of a man, then you have got some real explainin' to do.
So Jesus Christ made this decision to purge himself of God, and become a man?
That could not possibly be the theme here because of Philippians 2:5, “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.”
The interpretation you are suggesting has us being God, and we, by verse 5, are exhorted to think how CJ thought and purge ourselves of God and become human.
Mike, your narrow focus on this short passage, is blocking your ability to serve God with the same power and enthusiasm that CJ did.
Look at Philippians 2:1-4
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the spirit, if any bowels and mercies.
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Look not every man on his won things, but every man also onl the things of others.
Then verse 5
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.
Is there any consolation in Christ? well then let your brothers in Christ know about it.
Is there any comfort of love? Well then share it with your brethren.
Is there any fellowship of the spirit? Well, get with it.
Any bowels and mercies? Share, forgive people.
Be like minded. With who? Me? No. You? No. If I am wrong about something, don't be likeminded with me. Where you are wrong, don't let anyone be likeminded with you.
Vainglory? Get rid of it.
Lowliness of mind, work on it.
Consider others needs before your own.
Why? because that is how Jesus Christ thought, that is how he lived, that is how you and I are supposed to think and live.
Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God. JC put service to God and the lost sheep of the house of Israel above his own needs.
Jesus, Mike, how do you think he accomplished so much for so many people? By being vainglorious?
By being all haughty because he is the only begotten son of God?
He could have, but he emptied himself of haughty self pride. See I Timothy 3:6(We are sons of God, I John 3:1-3 Therefore we purify ourselves. We purge our old thinking and take on the thoughts that God wants us to think.. See Romans 8:37 for one. See Philippians 2:1-5. )
He emptied himself of his own will, just like are exhorted not to be self-willed. Titus 1:7
See John 5:30, I can of myself do nothing, as I hear I judge and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
He emptied himself of his own will.
How about John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Again, he says it.
John 7:16-18
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether if be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory; but he that seeketh His glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Jesus Christ emptied himself of his own will, to take on the Father's will.
Jesus Christ did not share what he thought, he did not share his own doctrine, but the doctrine of God himself.
How do you expect to be like minded with another believer if all you have is other people's opinions and ignorant theories?
We must empty ourselves of out own selfish motives and doctrines and think like CJ thought. He thought the doctrines of God. Where are they found? The scriptures, the logos. It is written.
I do not avoid your question, without the context of these verses, you will never understand these verses.
You need to read what they actually say.
“Who being in the form of God,….. took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. “
Your question asks, ” If Jesus was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the form of God, how did he then empty himself and be made in the form of a human?”
That is not what Philippians says. It says, he took upon him the form of a servant, it does not say it took upon him the form of a man.
It says, he was made in the likeness of men. How obvious is that?
The word form is morphe, the word likeness is the word, homoioma, an entirely different word.
The first thing you have to do as a student of the scriptures is to learn to read what is written.
We do not let our mind wander.
Mike, all Christians are in the form of God, See John 7:39, we have received the gift of spirit, God is spirit, John 4:24. Acts 2:38.
This passage has nothing to do with preexistence, it has everything to do with loving, obedient service to God.
Read what is written.
barley
If that is not enough for you, see me after class.
barley……………Good post brother. Mike has failed in his attempt at using Phil 2 as a defense for his and T8's stand on preexistence of Jesus, He called it a stale mate but in fact it was a wipe out IMO. Lets all stay with this as Mike takes us through each text , who knows he may comes to see preexistence differently as we go through them not to mention T8 and others also brother.peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,14:00) Okay barley Gene and Martian, You have all made it clear that you read the words differently than I do. I want to point out one last thing before calling Phil 2 a stalemate. And by that, I mean there is no sense in us brothers beating each other up when it is clear that none of us is just being obstinate here. We all believe how we do based on how we understand the Greek words and the context. But here's my last point, and then look for a new scripture in a new thread. I'll post it tonight.
The last words of verse 7 are:
and being made
in the likeness
of men.Remember that first it says he was “in the form of God”, which you guys say means that even as a human, he “struck the vision as one who was God”. (Martian quote)
So if he was already a human who was thought of as “from God” or “like a god” or whatever, why would he be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN?
barley apparently agrees with Martian that I don't know how to do homework.
So let's do it together, eh?and being made ginomai 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
in the likeness homoioma 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
of men anthropos 1) a human being, whether male or female
To me, this clearly says that AFTER existing in the form of God, he was literally made into a man.
But we disagree, and I don't want to see 800+ pages of this thread in which we just keep repeating the same things like the pre-existence thread.
So what next? John 6:38 that barley quoted? How about the one where the Son of Man ascends to where he was before? Yeah, that one sounds good. Look for it guys.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,No, actually you read different words than those that are there.
He took upon himself the form of a servant. It does not say, he took upon himself the form of a man. As you stated, he was already in the form of a man.
God is spirit. John 4;24, the like ness of God is spirit. The form of God is spirit. Did Jesus have spirit, yes, at his baptism by John the B, spirit from God descended down from heaven to be upon him.
Having this spirit, he chose to serve God, not himself.
God being spirit, by rights, should have had a son who was spirit as well. God chose to have a son that was made in the like ness of men. Note the past tense, JC was made in the likeness of men. He did not make himself in the like ness of men, read carefully now, was made. See it, was made. It does not say made himself. God made him in the likeness of men. After all, God was his Father and Mary his mother.
Read what is written, for what it says, any putz can read into it. We need to learn to read it for what it says, without preconceived notions.
Why was he made in the likeness of men? Because that is what God wanted. He wanted a human son, a perfect human son, one that could undo the mistake the first perfect humans made. Jesus Christ as a perfect man could redeem us. God had the plan, Jesus Christ was the man to carry out that plan. God's only begotten son.
See John 3:16.
What if I ascend to where God says I am seated together with Christ?
Ephesians 2:6.
And I will ascend there. I Thessalonians 4:13-18.
God raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Do I look like I am seated on the right hand of God with Jesus Christ? Do you? NO, yet God says we are there. God said I am there, there is no evidence that I am there except for the testimony of the scriptures. And my attitude, since I believe it.
Look it up. Read it for yourself.
Jesus Christ pre existed? Not a chance.
barley.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2010,14:10) Hi MB,
God's Spirit said many things through this man.
And many other men too, Nick.Yet only one of them speaks being sent “from heaven” and “ascending to where he was before” “in the presence” of God “before the creation of the world”, right? Only one of them claims to have “seen God”, right?
mike
Hi MB,
Yes he is the great prophet promised.[acts 3.22]
The fullness of the Spirit was given to him and in this blessing he preached and did works of power.[Acts 10.38]But you surmise he was radically different from other prophets?
What things did he say or do that were not of this anointing??Quote (barley @ July 28 2010,14:06) No, actually you read different words than those that are there.
Hey barley and all,Read it again:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.barley said:
Quote No, actually you read different words than those that are there. No, the words are there. I just had reposted that same question about 20 times to you guys, and towards the end I mixed up a couple of the words.
Answer just to the last 5 words barley. You too Gene. I let you guys off the hook so we didn't end up in a fist fight or something about it. But the word “made” is “ginomai” which literally means “generated” or “caused to exist”. It is the root word for the “genes” part of “monogenes”, which means “only begotten”.
Furthermore, I let barley slide with his long, drawn out conclusion of what Phil 2 was about. But all it's really saying is to not be selfish and think of yourself and your own position in life, but be like Jesus who had the best position ever at the right hand of God and gave that up to come and SERVE us sinful men. He was as God to us, being His right hand man and all, but EMPTIED himself of that to be “MADE (caused to exist) IN HUMAN LIKENESS”.
So, you want to keep going with Phil 2? I moved to the next scripture in an effort to keep a shred of respect and kindness between us here. And also at Gene's request. But then he turns around and says “He called it a stale mate but in fact it was a wipe out IMO”. Really Gene? And what role did you play in this wipe out besides saying “You're right” to anyone who posted against me? You don't even know what you think as long as it adds up to “Jesus didn't pre-exist”. First, you say Paul meant he is NOW “existing” in the form of God in heaven, not THEN. And then you say Martian and barley are right about it having nothing to do with heaven at all, but that Jesus could have “lorded it over” everyone that he was the Son of God, but chose not to. So which one is it, Gene?
I'll see you guys on the John thread.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2010,14:52) Hi MB,
Yes he is the great prophet promised.[acts 3.22]
The fullness of the Spirit was given to him and in this blessing he preached and did works of power.[Acts 10.38]But you surmise he was radically different from other prophets?
What things did he say or do that were not of this anointing??
Well, for one, he amazed everyone by teaching as one who had authority. The other prophets mostly just delivered God's messages and usually even added, “This is what Jehovah has said…..”.Here's a question for you Nick. How did John the Baptist recognize his lord when he was still in Elizabeth and Jesus was still in Mary? Jesus hadn't received the holy spirit at the Jordan at that point.
mike
Hi MB,
So he was a prophet who worked in God's anointing?
He was greater than John who he declared to be the greatest one before him.
John was a prophet from the womb and the prophetic anointing reveals the things of God[1Cor2].
So why do you imagine any preexistance possibilities for Jesus would make any difference to his works done in God's name?God's power shows up best in WEAK people.[cf Is53]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2010,15:12) So why do you imagine any preexistance possibilities for Jesus would make any difference to his works done in God's name?
This is what trips me out most about this pre-exsitence thing. You that say Jesus didn't pre-exist have “reasons” for wanting him not to have pre-existed.Now you ask me why his pre-existence would make a difference in the works he did.
I don't know Nick. There hasn't been a non-preexistent Jesus to compare with the pre-existent one.
Unlike you guys, I have no hidden agenda here. Pre-existent or not, it wouldn't make one bit of difference to me or to how I use him as an example. All I'm doing is believing scripture. And scripture clearly says he pre-existed……many times and in many ways.
You're falling into the Martian “What if” question territory. I don't care about the “what ifs”, I just want to follow and believe scripture.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,13:02) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2010,04:32) Jesus was and always will be one of Us brother, he never was any different then us.
Hi Gene,Do you have a human father? Did Jesus? Enough said?
mike
It has absolutely nothing to do with whether he was fully human or not. You hae no way of knowing from Christ birth is he is fully human or something else. Stop posting the same nonsense.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,12:59) Hi Martian, You said:
Quote Tell me how does an invisible spirit strike the vision? Can you even see it?
Are you saying you know that spirit creatures don't have a body? Paul says Jesus now has a spiritual body. How is one angel distinguished from another in heaven? If they didn't have some kind of “body” or “boundary” separating them as an individual, heaven would be full of one never ending spirit instead of individual angels, don't you think?You said:
Quote Look at Psalms 82 and John 10. Don’t ye know that ye are Gods? Were they really supposed to be Gods? Of course not, but they were supposed to function as Gods to the people.
These are talking of men who were “mighty ones”. Phil 2 talks of “THE God”, not “a mighty one”.You said:
Quote 6who, although He struck the vision as one who functions as God,
did not regard equality with one who functions as God a thing to be grasped,
When do you suppose this took place? At what point did Jesus “stike the vision” as God? At his birth? At his baptism?You said:
Quote He did not take the position to function as God to the people and use it for his own gain.
Again, at what point in Jesus' life did others think he could “funtion as God” to the point he needed to “play it off”? Were there those who thought a mere man could have been God Himself?I think you make as good a case as you can here Martian. And you do bring up some “reasonable doubt”. Are you ready to call this one a stalemate and move on to another scripture?
mike
You have little or no training in the Hebrew culture and yet suppose that you can tell others what effect that culture has on Biblical verse?Not talking about Angels. Talking about hoe GOD would strike the vision. Are you saying that God has a body visible to the common person on Earth
You say-
These are talking of men who were “mighty ones”. Phil 2 talks of “THE God”, not “a mighty one”
Where do you get that nonsense. In John the word uses is Theos, the exact word used to describe God all through the NT. In Psalms it is Elohiym. The same word used all through the OT for God.You say-
gain, at what point in Jesus' life did others think he could “funtion as God” to the point he needed to “play it off”? Were there those who thought a mere man could have been God Himself?
Reply –
Again your ignorance of the Hebrew culture ruins your perspective. I never said he was God I said he apeared to function as God.At least you are willing to admit that your so called proof is not iron clad or without doubt.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2010,15:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2010,15:12) So why do you imagine any preexistance possibilities for Jesus would make any difference to his works done in God's name?
This is what trips me out most about this pre-exsitence thing. You that say Jesus didn't pre-exist have “reasons” for wanting him not to have pre-existed.Now you ask me why his pre-existence would make a difference in the works he did.
I don't know Nick. There hasn't been a non-preexistent Jesus to compare with the pre-existent one.
Unlike you guys, I have no hidden agenda here. Pre-existent or not, it wouldn't make one bit of difference to me or to how I use him as an example. All I'm doing is believing scripture. And scripture clearly says he pre-existed……many times and in many ways.
You're falling into the Martian “What if” question territory. I don't care about the “what ifs”, I just want to follow and believe scripture.
mike
Mike! I agree with you and it is not nonesense. It is the truth. Why they don't understand it, I have no idea…. Maybe God does not let them see it right now. Why I say that is because at one time, I too did not want to believe it. Only after studying for some time, did God let me see it….. So we just have to wait and see….So many Scriptures that they have to either ignore or change into their interpetation of them…. How can you deny when it says that “He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father, who send Him…. What else could it say?? And to say that Jesus is wrong and He didn't exsist with Jehovah God before the world was, is almost cruel….. it makes Jesus a liar…… and that is what I dislike the most about it….Bless you and may God keep you in His Love, Irene
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