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Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,10:55) G3444. morphe, mor-fay'; perh. from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; fig. nature:–form.
Hi Martian,Well, there you go. Strong says morphe means “shape” or “form”. That fits well with what my sources also say,
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearanceIt also fits well with Mark 16:12,
Afterwards Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.So when are you going to answer the question?
But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”?
mike
Quote (barley @ July 26 2010,11:00) Might I add? Jesus Christ chose to be obedient to his parents. I chose to be obedient to mine.
Hi barley,Why do you keep avoiding the very simple question? If Jesus was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the form of God, how did he then empty himself and be made in the form of a human?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,11:33) Mike,
I do not like leaving things undone.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that there are instances of Christ being compared to Adam?
Did you read the post on what Adam lost?
Hi Martian,Yes, there are instances of Christ being contrasted to Adam. That is not to say that everything written about Christ also has an underlying referrence to Adam. Phil 2 is NOT about Adam in any way. It is about us being willing to walk away from all of our “treasures” to follow Christ's example. The “moral of the story” is:
If you leave behind even your greatest possesions to do the work of God, you will receive even greater treasures from God when that work is finished. Jesus left behind his spiritual life beside his God to empty himself and become flesh and blood. After finishing his task, God rasied him to an even higher position than he had before plus granted him immortality.
It's all right there in scripture Martian. All you have to do is put aside your “wish” for Jesus to be just like you, and read the scriptures the way they are written.
And if you don't want to leave things undone, ANSWER THE ONE QUESTION I KEEP ASKING YOU.
If Jesus was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the form of God, how did he then empty himself and be made in the form of a human?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,08:29) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,06:37) Mike……….You are not answering the question right , i was not talking about Jesus (NOW) position (NOR) His prior Berth on earth existence , But Paul was talking about His (EARTHLY) existence , that was a past existence for Jesus at (THE) time Paul wrote the text. GET IT? Jesus was existing on the earth (In) the nature of GOD because GOD'S Spirit was in him to the fullest. Get it?. Lets see if we can at least get this straight.
Hi Gene,Ahhh……yes, now I get it. So I will change the question to you a little bit in light of your clarification.
If Jesus was existing on earth in the nature of God because God's spirit was in him to the fullest, WHAT THEN did he empty himself OF? God's spirit? And if he was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the nature of God, how did he “be made” in the likeness of a human?
mike
Mike…………Jesus emptied himself of the Position that was afforded him by having that Spirit Nature, he had a higher level of existence and Power, afforded him at the Jordan river and could have presented himself as an equal of GOD, but he by the eternal spirit in him humbled himself because the love of GOD (IN) him, was causing his humility.Paul was not at all speaking about some time prior to Jesus earthly experience. To try to force the text to say that is simply not true and you have no point going for you on this one Mike. So at least be honest and admit it brother. You have proved nothing to support you beliefs. And lets move on to the next text.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,12:37) Mike…………Jesus emptied himself of the Position that was afforded him by having that Spirit Nature,
Okay Gene,You gave answering the first part of the question a shot. Let's just go with your answer for now.
What about the second part of the question?
And if he was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the nature of God, how did he “be made” in the likeness of a human?
When he was anointed at the Jordan, did he somehow change out of his human form, so that when he decided not to try to be equal with God, he was somehow changed BACK into a human being?
Just think, after you answer this one, we still have JA's question about how a mere man who is in every way equal to us could EVEN CONSIDER being equal to the Creator of the heavens and earth.
I know you are eager to leave Phil 2 and move on to another. Why? Do you think they get any easier to answer? I started with the easiest one for you guys.
mike
Mike……..look Jesus had the (same identical nature we have, a human nature, he also had as we can a divine nature , the only exception was he had the fullness of the spirit coupled with great power and authority , given him because he was without sin as explained by martian before, He simply did not advance himself by using it to bring glory to himself, like Moses did at the waters of Meriaba, but realizing understanding his humanity he humbled himself and became as we all need to be a servant of GOD, he did not try to be equal with God and as a result of his humility God raised him above all just as it says. But the question here is why do you and some others try to exceed Paul's Point and try to force the text and use it to justify you false perceptions of Jesus' preexistence before his berth. When there is not support for that in those scriptures of his and isn't at all the context he was driving at. You have failed to make you point here brother. IMO
peace and love………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,12:06) Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,11:33) Mike,
I do not like leaving things undone.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that there are instances of Christ being compared to Adam?
Did you read the post on what Adam lost?
Hi Martian,Yes, there are instances of Christ being contrasted to Adam. That is not to say that everything written about Christ also has an underlying referrence to Adam. Phil 2 is NOT about Adam in any way. It is about us being willing to walk away from all of our “treasures” to follow Christ's example. The “moral of the story” is:
If you leave behind even your greatest possesions to do the work of God, you will receive even greater treasures from God when that work is finished. Jesus left behind his spiritual life beside his God to empty himself and become flesh and blood. After finishing his task, God rasied him to an even higher position than he had before plus granted him immortality.
It's all right there in scripture Martian. All you have to do is put aside your “wish” for Jesus to be just like you, and read the scriptures the way they are written.
And if you don't want to leave things undone, ANSWER THE ONE QUESTION I KEEP ASKING YOU.
If Jesus was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the form of God, how did he then empty himself and be made in the form of a human?
mike
Did you read the post on what Adam lost?You say-
f you leave behind even your greatest possesions to do the work of God, you will receive even greater treasures from God when that work is finished. Jesus left behind his spiritual life beside his God to empty himself and become flesh and blood. After finishing his task, God rasied him to an even higher position than he had before plus granted him immortality.Reply-
That is a nice philosophical theory but practically does nothing to help me in reality. I do not have a prior spiritual life to give up. Duh!!!Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,11:51) Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,10:55) G3444. morphe, mor-fay'; perh. from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; fig. nature:–form.
Hi Martian,Well, there you go. Strong says morphe means “shape” or “form”. That fits well with what my sources also say,
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearanceIt also fits well with Mark 16:12,
Afterwards Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.So when are you going to answer the question?
But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”?
mike
But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”?First of all you must understand that the Hebrews’ did not describe things by way of appearance but by function. If you look at all the names given God in the OT this is clear.
God our strength
God or healer
God our savior
God our strong tower. Ect
All of these describe a function of God and not how he appears.
Look at Psalms 82 and John 10. Don’t ye know that ye are Gods? Were they really supposed to be Gods? Of course not, but they were supposed to function as Gods to the people.
I insert your definition in this verse
6who, although He existed in the form of God, (by the way he struck the vision) did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Tell me how does an invisible spirit strike the vision? Can you even see it?
However if you were to express the term “God” in the same way as the Hebrews saw it, it makes perfect sense.
6who, although He struck the vision as one who functions as God,
did not regard equality with one who functions as God a thing to be grasped,
He did not take the position to function as God to the people and use it for his own gain.
7but emptied Himself, taking the appearance of a bond-servant, and being made the same as (3667 from root 3664) men being found in appearance (4976) as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Mike……………. Are you beginning to get the picture yet. Jesus was and always will be one of Us brother, he never was any different then us. He was the (firstborn) from man kind to have eternal life and experience the resurrection from the dead as this is our hope too. He gave us a perfect example of How a man must become saved and enter into the kingdom of GOD. He never was there and then came hear and them went back to a former position, but as a man acquired the position GOD had for him as well as All man kind. He is the (first) of (Many) brothers and sisters to enter the kingdom of GOD and attain to eternal life. He is the way and the hope for us attaining that life, is example is the way we achieve it. Do not try to separate your likeness to Jesus it will cause you to be separated from Him and the Father. Preexistence live in the false house the Trinitarians have built for it., it is (NOT) of GOD. IMO
peace and love for you and yours…………………………….gene
Mike,
Let me add one more point to my previous post. Christ functioning as a God fits directly with him being the firstborn. As firstborn he has the responsibility to represent his father. To act in his name. Everything Christ did he gave credit to his father because he represented him as the one in firstborn position should.
In many old cultures, when a son in the firstborn position became of age he was given the signet ring and authority to at as if he were the father. Business men and merchants alike gave him the same deference as they did the father. He acted as the father would to all he met. Jesus could have used this authority to rule his father's kingdom and family but instead laid the rights and privledges of that position down to be a servant to them.Mike…………Phil 2 does not advance, your acquired teaching of Jesus preexistence, You might as well scrap that text it does not support you theology brother. IMO
peace and love ……………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,11:55) Quote (barley @ July 26 2010,11:00) Might I add? Jesus Christ chose to be obedient to his parents. I chose to be obedient to mine.
Hi barley,Why do you keep avoiding the very simple question? If Jesus was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the form of God, how did he then empty himself and be made in the form of a human?
mike
Mr. Mike,Looks like I need to add more scripture to what I shared.
Has not the context made it clear that the passage you refer to is in the context of loving, obedient service to God? Why would God introduce a foreign idea in the middle of an exhortation to serve in loving obedience to the Father? What does preexistence have to do with us serving God? Nothing, Jesus Christ did not preexist, and he served God. It is not a requirement that we preexist in order to serve God, is it? If it is, we are all in a heap of trouble. Why? because we did not preexist and we are commanded to serve God only. ….Him only shalt thou serve.” Matthew 4:10
If the passage you refer to, actually indicates that Jesus Christ, as God, emptied himself of being God, and decided to take on the form of a man, then you have got some real explainin' to do.
So Jesus Christ made this decision to purge himself of God, and become a man?
That could not possibly be the theme here because of Philippians 2:5, “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.”
The interpretation you are suggesting has us being God, and we, by verse 5, are exhorted to think how CJ thought and purge ourselves of God and become human.
Mike, your narrow focus on this short passage, is blocking your ability to serve God with the same power and enthusiasm that CJ did.
Look at Philippians 2:1-4
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the spirit, if any bowels and mercies.
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Look not every man on his won things, but every man also onl the things of others.
Then verse 5
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.
Is there any consolation in Christ? well then let your brothers in Christ know about it.
Is there any comfort of love? Well then share it with your brethren.
Is there any fellowship of the spirit? Well, get with it.
Any bowels and mercies? Share, forgive people.
Be like minded. With who? Me? No. You? No. If I am wrong about something, don't be likeminded with me. Where you are wrong, don't let anyone be likeminded with you.
Vainglory? Get rid of it.
Lowliness of mind, work on it.
Consider others needs before your own.
Why? because that is how Jesus Christ thought, that is how he lived, that is how you and I are supposed to think and live.
Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God. JC put service to God and the lost sheep of the house of Israel above his own needs.
Jesus, Mike, how do you think he accomplished so much for so many people? By being vainglorious?
By being all haughty because he is the only begotten son of God?
He could have, but he emptied himself of haughty self pride. See I Timothy 3:6(We are sons of God, I John 3:1-3 Therefore we purify ourselves. We purge our old thinking and take on the thoughts that God wants us to think.. See Romans 8:37 for one. See Philippians 2:1-5. )
He emptied himself of his own will, just like are exhorted not to be self-willed. Titus 1:7
See John 5:30, I can of myself do nothing, as I hear I judge and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
He emptied himself of his own will.
How about John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Again, he says it.
John 7:16-18
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether if be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory; but he that seeketh His glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Jesus Christ emptied himself of his own will, to take on the Father's will.
Jesus Christ did not share what he thought, he did not share his own doctrine, but the doctrine of God himself.
How do you expect to be like minded with another believer if all you have is other people's opinions and ignorant theories?
We must empty ourselves of out own selfish motives and doctrines and think like CJ thought. He thought the doctrines of God. Where are they found? The scriptures, the logos. It is written.
I do not avoid your question, without the context of these verses, you will never understand these verses.
You need to read what they actually say.
“Who being in the form of God,….. took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. “
Your question asks, ” If Jesus was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the form of God, how did he then empty himself and be made in the form of a human?”
That is not what Philippians says. It says, he took upon him the form of a servant, it does not say it took upon him the form of a man.
It says, he was made in the likeness of men. How obvious is that?
The word form is morphe, the word likeness is the word, homoioma, an entirely different word.
The first thing you have to do as a student of the scriptures is to learn to read what is written.
We do not let our mind wander.
Mike, all Christians are in the form of God, See John 7:39, we have received the gift of spirit, God is spirit, John 4:24. Acts 2:38.
This passage has nothing to do with preexistence, it has everything to do with loving, obedient service to God.
Read what is written.
barley
If that is not enough for you, see me after class.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2010,02:20) Mike……..look Jesus had the (same identical nature we have, a human nature, he also had as we can a divine nature , the only exception was he had the fullness of the spirit coupled with great power and authority , given him because he was without sin as explained by martian before, He simply did not advance himself by using it to bring glory to himself, like Moses did at the waters of Meriaba, but realizing understanding his humanity he humbled himself and became as we all need to be a servant of GOD, he did not try to be equal with God and as a result of his humility God raised him above all just as it says. But the question here is why do you and some others try to exceed Paul's Point and try to force the text and use it to justify you false perceptions of Jesus' preexistence before his berth. When there is not support for that in those scriptures of his and isn't at all the context he was driving at. You have failed to make you point here brother. IMO peace and love………………..gene
Hi Gene,And if he was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the nature of God, how did he “be made” in the likeness of a human?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 27 2010,03:09) That is a nice philosophical theory but practically does nothing to help me in reality. I do not have a prior spiritual life to give up. Duh!!!
What DO you have to give up for the glory of your God? Duh!!Hi Martian,
You said:
Quote Tell me how does an invisible spirit strike the vision? Can you even see it?
Are you saying you know that spirit creatures don't have a body? Paul says Jesus now has a spiritual body. How is one angel distinguished from another in heaven? If they didn't have some kind of “body” or “boundary” separating them as an individual, heaven would be full of one never ending spirit instead of individual angels, don't you think?You said:
Quote Look at Psalms 82 and John 10. Don’t ye know that ye are Gods? Were they really supposed to be Gods? Of course not, but they were supposed to function as Gods to the people.
These are talking of men who were “mighty ones”. Phil 2 talks of “THE God”, not “a mighty one”.You said:
Quote 6who, although He struck the vision as one who functions as God,
did not regard equality with one who functions as God a thing to be grasped,
When do you suppose this took place? At what point did Jesus “stike the vision” as God? At his birth? At his baptism?You said:
Quote He did not take the position to function as God to the people and use it for his own gain.
Again, at what point in Jesus' life did others think he could “funtion as God” to the point he needed to “play it off”? Were there those who thought a mere man could have been God Himself?I think you make as good a case as you can here Martian. And you do bring up some “reasonable doubt”. Are you ready to call this one a stalemate and move on to another scripture?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2010,04:32) Jesus was and always will be one of Us brother, he never was any different then us.
Hi Gene,Do you have a human father? Did Jesus? Enough said?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 27 2010,05:58) Mike,
Let me add one more point to my previous post. Christ functioning as a God fits directly with him being the firstborn. As firstborn he has the responsibility to represent his father. To act in his name. Everything Christ did he gave credit to his father because he represented him as the one in firstborn position should.
In many old cultures, when a son in the firstborn position became of age he was given the signet ring and authority to at as if he were the father. Business men and merchants alike gave him the same deference as they did the father. He acted as the father would to all he met. Jesus could have used this authority to rule his father's kingdom and family but instead laid the rights and privledges of that position down to be a servant to them.
Yet you think Jesus was exactly like we are. Did anyone ever think YOU were wearing God's signet ring? Did anyone ever link YOU so directly to God Himself that you were thought of as closer to God than anyone else? Is your immediate father God?Doesn't sound like “sameness” to me Martian.
mike
Hi MB,
Phil 2 speaks of CHRIST JESUS, not just Jesus.
It speaks of the anointed man
There is a difference.Okay barley Gene and Martian,
You have all made it clear that you read the words differently than I do. I want to point out one last thing before calling Phil 2 a stalemate. And by that, I mean there is no sense in us brothers beating each other up when it is clear that none of us is just being obstinate here. We all believe how we do based on how we understand the Greek words and the context. But here's my last point, and then look for a new scripture in a new thread. I'll post it tonight.
The last words of verse 7 are:
and being made
in the likeness
of men.Remember that first it says he was “in the form of God”, which you guys say means that even as a human, he “struck the vision as one who was God”. (Martian quote)
So if he was already a human who was thought of as “from God” or “like a god” or whatever, why would he be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN?
barley apparently agrees with Martian that I don't know how to do homework.
So let's do it together, eh?and being made ginomai 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
in the likeness homoioma 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
of men anthropos 1) a human being, whether male or female
To me, this clearly says that AFTER existing in the form of God, he was literally made into a man.
But we disagree, and I don't want to see 800+ pages of this thread in which we just keep repeating the same things like the pre-existence thread.
So what next? John 6:38 that barley quoted? How about the one where the Son of Man ascends to where he was before? Yeah, that one sounds good. Look for it guys.
peace and love,
mike
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